Lets try this another way: if you have faith the brain creates the mind, and that mind depends on brain, can we please see your logic and evidence?

[Revoltingest]

You’re easily triggered, I get that. I seem to remember the word entropy having a similar effect on you on at least one occasion. It’s almost as if, by policing the language, you can police your own unconscious and prevent trespass by unwelcome ideas.

So very many things trigger me.
Tis up to you guys to avoid this.
So be careful.

 

[F1fan]

What is the first thing you become, when you wake up in the morning? You become conscious; therefore consciousness is primary, it’s the alpha and the omega of human experience.

More ambiguity about this topic. To bring up awake versus some sleep state is different than the general consciousness we are talking about. Even as we sleep our brains are active. Even sleep/awake isn't black and white.

But you can only see this when you truly inhabit your own consciousness; you have to be truly awake, to be truly aware. And the ego doesn’t want you to do that, it wants to keep you entangled in it’s snares and cares, so you remain focused on it’s base material concerns.

So you acknowledge the hinderance of religion and other beliefs that the ego uses for shallow meaning? To be "truly awake" means to follow facts, use reason, and work towards emotional intelliegence and maturity.

Time for some William Blake I think;

View attachment 82351

Ideology is the "narrow chinks of his cavern", and any idea that is not rational, but feels good to believe for the sake of superficial meaning.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

More ambiguity about this topic. To bring up awake versus some sleep state is different than the general consciousness we are talking about. Even as we sleep our brains are active. Even sleep/awake isn't black and white.

Tell me about it!
My 3-year old daughter has the annoying habbit of, at least once a week, crying and screaming in the middle of the night.
*sometimes* this is because she is actually awake and had a bad dream or needs to use the toilet or whatever.
Most of the time, she is actually not awake at all. Her eyes are closed and she is relatively unresponsive. It's like really screaming of the top of her lungs...
And then, almost out of nowhere, she lies down again and starts snorring in silence as if nothing happened. The next day she remembers nothing.

It's extra freaky when she is in this state while ALSO being quite responsive to questions.
It might be like this:
"Are you in pain?" and she shakes her head "no".
"Do you want a drink?" and she shakes her head "no".
"Are you cold?" and she nods her head "yes".

Then I'ld say "okay, go lay down and I'll tuck you in real nice in your warm blanket". Then she'ld lie down and start snorring instantly again.

At no point during these episodes is she actually "awake".
It's diminishing as she grows older. There's been a period last year of a few weeks where it was like that almost every night.

Asleep, yet screaming and answering questions.

 

[anna.]

Tell me about it!
My 3-year old daughter has the annoying habbit of, at least once a week, crying and screaming in the middle of the night.
*sometimes* this is because she is actually awake and had a bad dream or needs to use the toilet or whatever.
Most of the time, she is actually not awake at all. Her eyes are closed and she is relatively unresponsive. It's like really screaming of the top of her lungs...
And then, almost out of nowhere, she lies down again and starts snorring in silence as if nothing happened. The next day she remembers nothing.

It's extra freaky when she is in this state while ALSO being quite responsive to questions.
It might be like this:
"Are you in pain?" and she shakes her head "no".
"Do you want a drink?" and she shakes her head "no".
"Are you cold?" and she nods her head "yes".

Then I'ld say "okay, go lay down and I'll tuck you in real nice in your warm blanket". Then she'ld lie down and start snorring instantly again.

At no point during these episodes is she actually "awake".
It's diminishing as she grows older. There's been a period last year of a few weeks where it was like that almost every night.

Asleep, yet screaming and answering questions.

Sounds like night terrors.

Sleep terrors (night terrors) - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[icehorse]

Claim: the brain creates the mind. The mind depends on the brain. When the brain dies mind dies. Etc.

Evidence: ?????

Typically, the mind develops in the motor system, which includes the brain and the spinal cord and the nerves, and so on. (Yes, I understand that the mind also develops in people who are paralyzed, but that's not the typical case.)

For many years I could accurately describe the goal of my profession as "cognitive skill acquisition", i.e. teacher. For the last several years I've shifted my focus to "motor skill acquisition", i.e. sports coach. Cool new theories like "embodied cognition" and "ecological psychology" claim that cognition happens in a system that includes the brain, the body, and the local environment.

Another related theory is "enactivism" which claims that much of cognition occurs in the interactions between the organism and its environment. This feels intuitively correct to me (fwiw).

I think that we need a philosophy that says that healthy organisms must not only think well, but also move well, and interact with nature well. I think that a LOT of the problems in the world today are because we've tried to artificially separate ourselves from our bodies and from nature.

We ARE our bodies and we ARE our natural environment.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sounds like night terrors.

Sleep terrors (night terrors) - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

Dang, that's right on the money!

I did make a link with sleepwalking already though... assuming it was the same sort of thing. It runs in the family a bit.
But eventhough "in the moment" it can get quite intense, it is always over very fast and she clearly is growing out of it.
So it hasn't triggered me to go and seek help for it.

Still, very informative, thanks for that!

 

[1137]

I'm posting this thread for reference since it strikes me as disinfomative to post multiple threads essentially asking the same question minus peoples prior attempts at addressing the question;

The faith that the brain is the source of mind doesn't hold up

Updated to highlight the empirical facts. 1. The only evidence for physicalism is that doing things to the brain affects the mind. This is expected by everyone though, dualists for instance don't say the two aren't connected, it isn't exclusive to physicalism. It also forgets that correlation...

www.religiousforums.com

No worries. The first was a refutation of Physicalism, the second a request for evidence for physicalism. The first had the burden of proof shifted to the nonphysicalist but this one won't allow it as its a direct question. Hope this clarifies.

 

[1137]

This is not a good argument for the following reasons:-
1) If the brain was just a receiver like a radio, then multiple brains could exist at the same time that "emit" the same mind. This is not observed. This evidence has to be there and is crucial to justify the transmission/receiver argument. For example the same internet page can be accessed from multiple computers at the same time.

On one hand, why? Brains are very complex and I doubt any two are identical.

On the other, you're still assuming mind comes from brain. Brain isn't emitting anything.

2) The mind develops and grows in complexity in a child along with the brain. For example, the ability to think from the point of view of another develops around age 5-6 if I remember correctly. If the brain was just about transmitting information to the mind and receiving information from it, then the growth of the mind would not have been connected to the developmental growth of the brain circuitry.

Well yeah the receiver is evolving to pick things up better.

3) Brain is a collection of atoms only, then why does one collection of atoms get affected by and also affects a nonphysical entity called mind but another collection of atoms (say a banana) does not. Why does a banana not have a mind.

I mean a banana doesnt have a conplex conscious receiver.

 

[anna.]

Dang, that's right on the money!

I did make a link with sleepwalking already though... assuming it was the same sort of thing. It runs in the family a bit.
But eventhough "in the moment" it can get quite intense, it is always over very fast and she clearly is growing out of it.
So it hasn't triggered me to go and seek help for it.

Still, very informative, thanks for that!

You're very welcome, hopefully she'll continue to grow out of them. We've had some family members with night terrors and sleepwalking (I don't recall if any had both) but they all got better over time, thankfully. Best wishes for better sleep!

 

[1137]

Death, sleep, unconsciousness, brain damage and dementia.

What about them?

 

[1137]

Ask a neurosurgeon.

Damage to the brain damages the mind.
Dementia damages the mind

I asked for evidence brain creates mind, not that they are related.

On brain death the mind ceases

This is a claim repeated, not evidence.

 

[1137]

I'm no specialist. Nor do you deserve any particular state of the art. Make no mistake.

So again no evidence.

 

[1137]

1. braindamage alters the mind

Yes, brain and mind are connected.

2. drugs, medicine, ... in short: things that affect brain chemistry balance, alters the mind

Yes, brain and mind are connected.

3. the mind disappears when the brain dies or shows no more neural activity

Requires refutation of theism and the paranormal.

4. while under a scanner, putting the mind to work shows on brainscans

Yes, brain and mind are connected.

5. "mind reading devices": still in baby shoes, but the tech is already in existence where it is able to project images of what a person is think. and it does this by.... "reading" brain activity.

Yes, brain and mind are connected.

Is 5 enough?

It would be a start, but we're still at zero.

Now it's your turn. What evidence do you have that minds exists independently of brains? Can you show us a mind that exists absent a living brain?

The faith that the brain is the source of mind doesn't hold up

Updated to highlight the empirical facts. 1. The only evidence for physicalism is that doing things to the brain affects the mind. This is expected by everyone though, dualists for instance don't say the two aren't connected, it isn't exclusive to physicalism. It also forgets that correlation...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[1137]

There is absolutely no need to "refute" things that are asserted without evidence.
There is nothing there to refute.

I see the correlation between physicalism and fideism is strengthening.

What is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Perfect then we can dismiss physicalism, QED.

 

[exchemist]

What you offer here is evidence of correlation, not causation.

Anyway, let's do as you suggest, and ask a neuroscientist;

A Neuroscientist Explains The Difference Between The Mind & Brain | mindbodygreen

This link is balls. I've no idea who this Caroline Leaf may be, but she is talking out of her arse when it comes to energy. Sorry to be rough but this sort of crap annoys me.

It just makes no sense to say that the mind "is energy". Energy is not stuff. It is a property of a physical system. So it is meaningless to speak of energy without saying what physical system it is a property of, i.e. the energy of what?

From the context it seems likely she means the energy of the brain, as that is what she does her experiments on. We know there is electrochemical activity in the brain and particular bits of it are more active when particular types of mental process go on. So if this is the "energy" she is talking about, it is consistent with the idea that the "mind" is the emergent phenomenon of brain activity.

It does not provide evidence for "mind" being somehow a freestanding entity.

 

[1137]

I know we are dealing with fideism here but since people keep mentioning neuroscience...

 

[sayak83]

On one hand, why? Brains are very complex and I doubt any two are identical.

On the other, you're still assuming mind comes from brain. Brain isn't emitting anything.

Well yeah the receiver is evolving to pick things up better.

I mean a banana doesnt have a conplex conscious receiver.

You need to think a little bit more before replying imho.
As a child, do you remember yourself thinking ultra complex thoughts and feeling ultra complex emotions but unable to express them? No. You remember that your ways of thinking and feeling were simpler than as a teen. You would have felt the former way if you were a fully formed mind trying to express yourself through a simpler receiver that is the child brain.
Your second objection is also nonsense. Vastly different makes of TV can access and beam the same channel. This is the hallmark of a receiver, many types can receive the same input for beaming.

 

[ChristineM]

What you offer here is evidence of correlation, not causation.

Anyway, let's do as you suggest, and ask a neuroscientist;

A Neuroscientist Explains The Difference Between The Mind & Brain | mindbodygreen

Did the OP ask for causation?

That explains the mind is of the brain very well, thanks

 

[ChristineM]

I asked for evidence brain creates mind, not that they are related.

This is a claim repeated, not evidence.

All are evidence, because you refuse to accept them as evidence is not my problem

 

[Alien826]

Vastly different makes of TV can access and beam the same channel. This is the hallmark of a receiver, many types can receive the same input for beaming.

Careful. I think he is describing a receiver and transmitter that are exclusively linked to each other, not general transmitters and receivers like radio stations and radio receivers.

@1137 -

A question for you that might help. You have asked for evidence that the brain creates all thought, have received many answers, and dismissed all of them. Maybe you can tell us what you would consider to be evidence? If you can't do that, then we can reasonably assume that no suggested evidence will be acceptable to you and this whole discussion is a waste of time. Turning it round, we (that disagree with you) can quite readily do the same thing. Evidence of a functioning mind that is not connected to a brain is an example.