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Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Please note that this is in the Judaism DIR. Being such, I'm particularly looking for responses by people practicing Judaism. Thank you.

I'm looking for a Jewish perspective on these two verses. These two verse deal with homosexuality and label the act of a man having sex with another man as an abomination. I figure since these verses were first written for a Jewish audience, maybe a Jewish perspective could shine some light on the subject.

Since the Hebrew Bible was written for the Jews, would these two verses be relevant to all mankind, or just to the Jews? I ask as I've heard by some Jews that the Hebrew Bible is meant for them, that God is expecting something different from the Jews and that is why they have their particular laws and such. Is that true for these two verses?

Also, I can see a logical reason for these verses in a historical context. The Hebrews were looking to become a mighty nation, and homosexual sex simply didn't help this (as in it didn't produce new Hebrews). Did that have something to do with these particular verses?

Thanks of any answers.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
So, given that this is the Judaism DIR, and I would not wish to offer undue objection to my Orthodox colleagues here, I will not presume to offer what I believe would be the Orthodox spectrum of interpretations, given that I am not Orthodox, and do not agree with many of the readings of verses such as these in Orthodoxy today, and so would inevitably bias the presumed interpretation of a specific text; so I will leave that part of the answer to one of the very competent Orthodox members here to do.

As for non-Orthodox Judaism, these are regarded as extremely problematic verses. In the Conservative movement, those who would seek to effectively nullify the effect in Jewish Law of these verses have only been incompletely able to do so. Various interpretations have been made to suggest that the verses only actually are concerned with male-on-male anal sex, and all other forms of same sex relations are permissible. But many feel that these solutions are still deeply insufficient, as they leave gay sexuality with a limitation far graver than any placed on heterosexual relations in the halakhah (Jewish Law), and this still carries a stigma. These insufficiencies mostly result from the fact that the halakhah makes it extremely, extremely difficult to legislate an effective reversal of a negative commandment in the Torah. The one true means to do so has not yet been employed, because of its radical nature, although a small group of rabbis are preparing to do so within the next year or two. This would involve a legislated injunction, known as a takkanah l'akor davar min hatorah (a "legislated injunction to uproot something from the Torah"), though nothing is actually removed from the Torah, of course. What would happen is a legislation by a rabbincal court would dictate that the verses in question are not to be acted upon, and may not be used as prooftexts to support any matter of halakhah, for a duration of 1000 years or until the messiah comes (whichever is first). The stated reason would be that, since it is clear that we cannot find a way to interpret these verses that does not result in a tenth of the Jewish people being permanently in violation of the law for no reason other than the way they were created, it is clear that whatever the proper interpretation of the verses are, we do not know them, and cannot seem to figure out what they are. Since we have not been able to do so for 2000 years or more, this means that we must surely wait for the messiah to come and reveal the true meaning of the verses, since surely God would never command us to oppress our own, based solely on how He created them.

The Reform movement, who feel that they are not strictly bound by halakhah, has come up with various other ways of dealing with these verses, ranging from the singularly uncreative and entirely untraditional method of simply ignoring them without any supporting methodology, to dubious and fairly unconvincing historical guessing games, to various textual interpretations that, while not supported enough by traditional methods to be halakhically acceptable, are still ingenious and promising.

For example, some have argued that the phrase in 18:22 v'et zachar lo tishkav mishkevei ishah ("You must not lie carnally with a male in the way of lying carnally with a woman"), which is phrased in a unique and peculiar structure (the particular wording is used only there, and in 20:13, and nowhere else in the Tanakh), merely indicates that a man ought not to have sexual relations with another man in the same way that he would with a woman. A gay man will never approach sex with a woman with the same naturalness and ease that he would with a man, and vice-versa: thus there is no transgression. It is only a straight man who has sex with another man for reasons other than he would have sex with a woman who has transgressed. So, for example, prison rape would be prohibited, because it is not the act of a gay man who has sex with another gay man for love and mutual pleasure, but the act of a straight man who asserts his dominance over another man by brutalizing him with a violent sex act. It is my belief that, while inspired, this reading cannot be supported by the text using the classical methods of halakhic reading. At least not yet.

Another ingenious example of interpreting these verses is the idea that, because both of these commandments are specifically bracketed by verses prohibiting idolatry and foreign worship, after the fashion of the Egyptians and Canaanites, that what is meant is not any homosexual act, but specifically homosexual acts done in the context of idolatrous worship. That it is only if one were having gay sex as a form of worship of, say, Amen-Ra, or Baal, that it would be forbidden. This still, IMO, is not strongly enough supported for a halakhic reinterpretation, but it is close. If more research could be done, perhaps some classical scholars' opinions found who read the text similarly, maybe this could solve the problem for halakhically observant Jews. But none has, yet. So far, readings like these, despite their striking originality and cleverness, are only useful to Reform and Reconstructionist and Renewal Jews, who do not see themselves as bound by the rules of halakhah.

To my mind, it is deeply important that Judaism not stigmatize and condemn a tenth of its own people for what they cannot control; and it is also important that the issue be dealt with in a way that respects the tradition even while instituting changes. Which, in this case, is difficult. I think that these two verses are the most challenging in the entire Torah, and while I have no proof of it, and certainly no halakhic way to say so or support it, I am sure that these two verses are somehow errors, mistakes the prophets made in understanding what God was trying to convey. I refuse to believe that the God I believe in would create people to be gay and then condemn them for it. The God I believe in is merciful, and forgiving, and just, and compassionate, and does not create people merely to torment them.
 
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I can't really add anything to the discussion, but, I did read something interesting by Rabbi Michael Lerner recently:

As to the literalists, well, then be literal: the command says, "Thou shalt not lie with a man the way thou liest with a woman." Ok, fine, but that doesn't say thou shalt not lie with a man, but only that one must do so in a different way than one lies with a woman

I'm not sure if that comment was more tongue-in-cheek, or what, but, I found it like something good to say next time someone repeats the verse and condemns a gay person.

So, given that this is the Judaism DIR, and I would not wish to offer undue objection to my Orthodox colleagues here, I will not presume to offer what I believe would be the Orthodox spectrum of interpretations, given that I am not Orthodox, and do not agree with many of the readings of verses such as these in Orthodoxy today, and so would inevitably bias the presumed interpretation of a specific text; so I will leave that part of the answer to one of the very competent Orthodox members here to do.

As for non-Orthodox Judaism, these are regarded as extremely problematic verses. In the Conservative movement, those who would seek to effectively nullify the effect in Jewish Law of these verses have only been incompletely able to do so. Various interpretations have been made to suggest that the verses only actually are concerned with male-on-male anal sex, and all other forms of same sex relations are permissible. But many feel that these solutions are still deeply insufficient, as they leave gay sexuality with a limitation far graver than any placed on heterosexual relations in the halakhah (Jewish Law), and this still carries a stigma. These insufficiencies mostly result from the fact that the halakhah makes it extremely, extremely difficult to legislate an effective reversal of a negative commandment in the Torah. The one true means to do so has not yet been employed, because of its radical nature, although a small group of rabbis are preparing to do so within the next year or two. This would involve a legislated injunction, known as a takkanah l'akor davar min hatorah (a "legislated injunction to uproot something from the Torah"), though nothing is actually removed from the Torah, of course. What would happen is a legislation by a rabbincal court would dictate that the verses in question are not to be acted upon, and may not be used as prooftexts to support any matter of halakhah, for a duration of 1000 years or until the messiah comes (whichever is first). The stated reason would be that, since it is clear that we cannot find a way to interpret these verses that does not result in a tenth of the Jewish people being permanently in violation of the law for no reason other than the way they were created, it is clear that whatever the proper interpretation of the verses are, we do not know them, and cannot seem to figure out what they are. Since we have not been able to do so for 2000 years or more, this means that we must surely wait for the messiah to come and reveal the true meaning of the verses, since surely God would never command us to oppress our own, based solely on how He created them.

That's actually quite interesting about the binding of that verse, I think it would help all LGBT people everywhere. Would that binding effect every denomination of Judaism? (like, would the Haredi ignore it, if it went through?).

To my mind, it is deeply important that Judaism not stigmatize and condemn a tenth of its own people for what they cannot control; and it is also important that the issue be dealt with in a way that respects the tradition even while instituting changes. Which, in this case, is difficult. I think that these two verses are the most challenging in the entire Torah, and while I have no proof of it, and certainly no halakhic way to say so or support it, I am sure that these two verses are somehow errors, mistakes the prophets made in understanding what God was trying to convey. I refuse to believe that the God I believe in would create people to be gay and then condemn them for it. The God I believe in is merciful, and forgiving, and just, and compassionate, and does not create people merely to torment them.

I really agree :).
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
That's actually quite interesting about the binding of that verse, I think it would help all LGBT people everywhere. Would that binding effect every denomination of Judaism? (like, would the Haredi ignore it, if it went through?).

Not even all the Conservative movement would accept it as binding, at first, although all would consider it a valid halakhic option to use as precedent or to choose to consider binding. In the Conservative movement, each community has the prerogative to choose which rabbis' decisions they will accept as binding them halakhically, though all the movement respects the decisions of every Conservative rabbi as potentially valid halakhic choices. I think over a relatively short time, most would come to do so. I think the right wing of the Reform movement would find it interesting enough that those who cared about the use of traditional halakhah would embrace it. Likewise for such Reconstructions who care for using the halakhah. And those not affiliated with any denominations would, of course, be free to choose to consider it binding upon themselves or not.

As for Orthodoxy, they would not take it as binding them for the simple reason that they would deny the authority of the non-Orthodox rabbinical court to issue any binding halakhic ruling at all, let alone one so radical it has seldom been used at all, even by the greatest sages of our tradition. Anyone Orthodox would tell you that, even if such a ruling were made by an Orthodox Bet Din (rabbinical court), it would be void and heretical, because (according to the Orthodox view of halakhah) such a thing can only be done by a full sanhedrin, with ordinations from rabbis acclaimed as authoritative by all the Jewish people, could even consider such a technique, and anyone with even a whit less authority than that would be gravely overstepping the bounds of their prerogative as halakhic jurists.

When those Conservative rabbis do issue their takkanah, if the Orthodox take any notice of it at all, beyond it being one more thing to consider a disgraceful outrage from non-Orthodoxy, they will certainly put the rabbis on that Bet Din in cherem (a bit like excommunication). Even Modern Orthodoxy would consider this an egregious overstepping of authority, and an illegitimate use of a halakhic technique fit only for the rarest use by the most universally acclaimed authorities.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
I can give you my own perspective, I don't claim it's the only or right one.

The key is that many, many things are called by the hebrew word 'To'ebah' in the Torah, which is the word that is translated into the word 'Abomination' in English bibles.

A better word for the hebrew word 'To'ebah' might be 'taboo'.The hebrew word 'To'ebah' does not translate as sin, there are many other words that describe various types of sin and 'To'ebah' is not one of them. I have often quoted this mocking site, just to poke fun at fundie overreaction to this word:

God Hates Shrimp

It is the specific act, and not the orientation, which is 'To'ebah'. That applies to hetro as well as same-sex participants in this act, or so I have been taught.
 
Not even all the Conservative movement would accept it as binding, at first, although all would consider it a valid halakhic option to use as precedent or to choose to consider binding. In the Conservative movement, each community has the prerogative to choose which rabbis' decisions they will accept as binding them halakhically, though all the movement respects the decisions of every Conservative rabbi as potentially valid halakhic choices. I think over a relatively short time, most would come to do so. I think the right wing of the Reform movement would find it interesting enough that those who cared about the use of traditional halakhah would embrace it. Likewise for such Reconstructions who care for using the halakhah. And those not affiliated with any denominations would, of course, be free to choose to consider it binding upon themselves or not.

As for Orthodoxy, they would not take it as binding them for the simple reason that they would deny the authority of the non-Orthodox rabbinical court to issue any binding halakhic ruling at all, let alone one so radical it has seldom been used at all, even by the greatest sages of our tradition. Anyone Orthodox would tell you that, even if such a ruling were made by an Orthodox Bet Din (rabbinical court), it would be void and heretical, because (according to the Orthodox view of halakhah) such a thing can only be done by a full sanhedrin, with ordinations from rabbis acclaimed as authoritative by all the Jewish people, could even consider such a technique, and anyone with even a whit less authority than that would be gravely overstepping the bounds of their prerogative as halakhic jurists.

When those Conservative rabbis do issue their takkanah, if the Orthodox take any notice of it at all, beyond it being one more thing to consider a disgraceful outrage from non-Orthodoxy, they will certainly put the rabbis on that Bet Din in cherem (a bit like excommunication). Even Modern Orthodoxy would consider this an egregious overstepping of authority, and an illegitimate use of a halakhic technique fit only for the rarest use by the most universally acclaimed authorities.

Thanks for informing me, I admit to, after reading your first post, my imagination went a bit away with me, and I had fantasies of, the Leviticus verses being suddenly prohibitied from being used, and being a great day for LGBT Jews (and non-Jews as well). Although, I still think it would be a great achievement and mile-stone, IMO, anyway.

BTW, what would a cherem by the Orthodox against the Conservative accomplish?, would it mean they couldn't be Rabbis anymore, or would it be void, since they're part of 2 different denominations? (BTW, sorry to both you and the OP if that's OT for this thread).
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
BTW, what would a cherem by the Orthodox against the Conservative accomplish?, would it mean they couldn't be Rabbis anymore, or would it be void, since they're part of 2 different denominations? (BTW, sorry to both you and the OP if that's OT for this thread).

In practice it would mean nothing. Probably at least a third of the Haredim don't even think that non-Orthodox Jews are even legitimately Jews at all. It would just be an acknowledgement of loathing and disrespect.

The Conservative movement would not acknowledge the cherem as binding, since, in the view of the Conservative movement, nothing would have been done that was heretical or beyond the scope of rabbinic authority. Most of the Orthodox who do believe that non-Orthodox Jews are legitimately Jewish would consider the cherem something of a wasted effort anyhow, since the Conservative Jews are (in their opinion) already known heretics who refuse to acknowledge the authority of Orthodox rabbis.
 

HiddenDjinn

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
In practice it would mean nothing. Probably at least a third of the Haredim don't even think that non-Orthodox Jews are even legitimately Jews at all. It would just be an acknowledgement of loathing and disrespect.

The Conservative movement would not acknowledge the cherem as binding, since, in the view of the Conservative movement, nothing would have been done that was heretical or beyond the scope of rabbinic authority. Most of the Orthodox who do believe that non-Orthodox Jews are legitimately Jewish would consider the cherem something of a wasted effort anyhow, since the Conservative Jews are (in their opinion) already known heretics who refuse to acknowledge the authority of Orthodox rabbis.
If you want my two cents, a Rabbi who puts tradition before Torah(specifically, words from that Talmud, and interpretations handed down by Gaonim such as Karo) deserves to be questioned by all Am Yisrael, not just by a splinter away from Orthodoxy.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
If you want my two cents, a Rabbi who puts tradition before Torah(specifically, words from that Talmud, and interpretations handed down by Gaonim such as Karo) deserves to be questioned by all Am Yisrael, not just by a splinter away from Orthodoxy.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by this. Are you critical of the Conservative rabbis for not adhering more closely to the pshat of Torah, or are you critical of Orthodox rabbis for refusing to use the halakhic system that was given to them except for more chumrot, or are you taking the Karaite position that all Rabbinic Judaism is insufficient in the face of total Torah literalism?
 

HiddenDjinn

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
I am not sure I understand what you mean by this. Are you critical of the Conservative rabbis for not adhering more closely to the pshat of Torah, or are you critical of Orthodox rabbis for refusing to use the halakhic system that was given to them except for more chumrot, or are you taking the Karaite position that all Rabbinic Judaism is insufficient in the face of total Torah literalism?
Let's see if I can clear this up...I have little issue with the Conservative movement. The Orthodox movement, as a whole, I have little issue with. I'm no Karaite. There are some communities I've run across that have put community traditions(e.g. wigs) over Talmud and its interpretations(Karo wrote that any woman who wears a wig is an adultress.)
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Let's see if I can clear this up...I have little issue with the Conservative movement. The Orthodox movement, as a whole, I have little issue with. I'm no Karaite. There are some communities I've run across that have put community traditions(e.g. wigs) over Talmud and its interpretations(Karo wrote that any woman who wears a wig is an adultress.)

OK. I think, if I understand you correctly, that I would probably concur with you in many ways.
 
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