LGBTQ

[VoidCat]

I'm sure. Terms for it could exist. Doesn't mean they were commonplace

@Saint Frankenstein

Today, historians and former friends of Marsha describe her as a trans woman. During Marsha’s lifetime, the term transgender was not commonly used. Marsha described herself as a gay person, a transvestite, and a drag queen. She used she/her pronouns.

Former friends. I find it disrespectful to the deceased to ignore what people who actually knew the person and discussed with them say.

But we can agree to disagree and just leave it. I don't have patience today sorry it's not you too much stress going on in my life. I'm afraid of snapping at you. The point is that according to history trans people were essential to the movement. Regardless who started the riots

 

[VoidCat]

@Saint Frankenstein

Former friends. I find it disrespectful to the deceased to ignore what people who actually knew the person and discussed with them say.

But we can agree to disagree and just leave it. I don't have patience today sorry it's not you too much stress going on in my life. I'm afraid of snapping at you. The point is that according to history trans people were essential to the movement. Regardless who started the riots

I forgot the link

https://wams.nyhistory.org/growth-and-turmoil/growing-tensions/marsha-p-johnson/

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Again I'm not basing off academics but by former friends of hers. They claim she was transgender just the term wasn't used. As for Sylvia she did later in life identify as a transwoman. Regardless...doesn't take away the point: transfolk were essential to the movement.

Again, I prefer to let dead people speak for themselves. Johnson herself knew what the difference was between transsexuals and transvestites and pointedly identified with the latter.
"In an interview with Allen Young, in Out of the Closets: Voices of Gay Liberation, Johnson discussed being a member of the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries (STAR), saying, "A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy." Johnson distinguishes this from transsexual, defining transsexuals as those who are on hormones and getting surgery."

Marsha P. Johnson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That doesn't sound like a trans woman to me, and I have no idea how those friends of hers are able to square that with their claims.

You have a point with Rivera, though.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

@Saint Frankenstein

Former friends. I find it disrespectful to the deceased to ignore what people who actually knew the person and discussed with them say.

But we can agree to disagree and just leave it. I don't have patience today sorry it's not you too much stress going on in my life. I'm afraid of snapping at you. The point is that according to history trans people were essential to the movement. Regardless who started the riots

Maybe you should take a break from the board, then.

 

[VoidCat]

Maybe you should take a break from the board, then.

Probably should. I'm worried sick about a lot of things and ain't thinking clearly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why is the T in the same category as the LG&B? The LG&B is about who you are sexually attracted to, but the T is about what you identify as; which is completely different. Am I missing something here? Your thoughts?

In terms of the community, there's ties because trans people and gays often hang out, especially since many trans people were previously gay men or lesbians and wish to maintain their social ties. Then there are trans people who identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual and so would be in the community, anyway. But there's a lot of trans people who have nothing to do with the LGB and aren't part of that community.

 

[VoidCat]

Again, I prefer to let dead people speak for themselves. Johnson herself knew what the difference was between transsexuals and transvestites and pointedly identified with the latter.
"In an interview with Allen Young, in Out of the Closets: Voices of Gay Liberation, Johnson discussed being a member of the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries (STAR), saying, "A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy." Johnson distinguishes this from transsexual, defining transsexuals as those who are on hormones and getting surgery."

Marsha P. Johnson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That doesn't sound like a trans woman to me, and I have no idea how those friends of hers are able to square that with their claims.

You have a point with Rivera, though.

Could be she wasn't. Also I don't really know much about these people just basics I've read on them. That book I posted tho seems very informative and interesting. I'm not finished with it but already learned lots

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Why is the T in the same category as the LG&B? The LG&B is about who you are sexually attracted to, but the T is about what you identify as; which is completely different. Am I missing something here? Your thoughts?

Aside from what @VoidCat posted, it's not hard to see that transfolk and homosexuals have often been lumped together by the bigots they oppose, so it makes sense they would band together. Both have had gender-based slurs (often the same) and arguments hurled at them.

Consider as well how obviously intersectional the two groups are, since gender roles and sexuality play a part in the issues related to them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Probably should. I'm worried sick about a lot of things and ain't thinking clearly.

Take care of yourself. *Hugs*

 

[Kfox]

It can be made objective for this issue.

How?

 

[Kfox]

It is difficult to decide how to explain to people who ask us to define or explain the history of the LGBTQ liberation movement.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking why is the T placed in the same category as the other letters when they have nothing to do with each other. The fact that you brought history into the matter is how you chose to explain it.

 

[Kfox]

Cars, trucks, and even airplanes are all "motor vehicles". In this case it's just a collection of non hetero-normative descriptors.

Trans people are not heterosexual? So they are Homosexual?

 

[Kfox]

In terms of the community, there's ties because trans people and gays often hang out, especially since many trans people were previously gay men or lesbians and wish to maintain their social ties. Then there are trans people who identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual and so would be in the community, anyway. But there's a lot of trans people who have nothing to do with the LGB and aren't part of that community.

Okay; that makes sense. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[libre]

Question for those who are perplexed or disturbed by the inclusion of the T in LGBT.

Why do you care?

 

[Argentbear]

That's not what I was asking. I was asking why is the T placed in the same category as the other letters when they have nothing to do with each other. The fact that you brought history into the matter is how you chose to explain it.

its not letters it's people

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not debating an LGB bigot who is alreafy blatantly ignoring history and facts.

Oh, debate is pointless.
Just say what needs to be said.
I'm not familiar enuf to paint a full picture.
There's always the chance that some might sink in.

 

[Revoltingest]

How?

Some background...

https://www.sfdph.org/dph/files/THS/TransgenderHealthServices_MH%20Guidelines.pdf

While feelings of the affected person, ie, the "client"
are subjective, they can be objectively evaluated.
Evidence for the existence of trans-sexuality is in
brain scan differences. There are others, but this
is something best explored by your own search of
the literature, not my amateurish surveying &
relating.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh, debate is pointless.
Just say what needs to be said.
I'm not familiar enuf to paint a full picture.
There's always the chance that some might sink in.

Id prefer before and after pictures of trans people. Myself included, we're known for looking dead in the eyes before and having a spark of life there for the after.
Yes, things like the brainscans are helpful for having objective evidence, but it gets ignored by haters anyways. For everybody else there's things that more clearly convey the idea.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's not what I was asking. I was asking why is the T placed in the same category as the other letters when they have nothing to do with each other. The fact that you brought history into the matter is how you chose to explain it.

It's because we have a shared common history and struggle and back then before LGBT we were all just queer.

 

[Kfox]

Question for those who are perplexed or disturbed by the inclusion of the T in LGBT.

Why do you care?

If I don't understand something, I ask questions in an effort to get an understanding. Do you have a problem with this?