Liberal or Conservative? Who cares!

[turk179]

I am using this opportunity to vent a little and possibly do a little debating. I have noticed a recurring topic lately on the debates section. It seems that whenever someone has an opposing point of view, they are labeled a liberal or conservative, depending on the orientation of the original poster. And then later on are accused of trying to force their opinions on other members whether it be politically or religiously fueled. These accusations seem to come rather often lately and it seems like the actual act of debating is put on a side burner so that everyone can take turns claiming or insulting someones political or religious agenda.

Any thoughts on the issue?
Oh! And if I am totally off base with this question feel free to cyber kick me in the head.

 

[Aqualung]

No, I've noticed it too. People don't really want to discuss things anymore. They just say, "stop forcing your opinions on me," and then argue about that. Debates are specificially for forcing your opinions on others. If you can't "force them back off" with some evidence of your own, don't post in a debate!

 

[robtex]

I am using this opportunity to vent a little and possibly do a little debating. I! And if I am totally off base with this question feel free to cyber kick me in the head.

Orion politics is really complicated. Not only is there conservative, liberal but there is moderate that can be added to each. Democrat, republican libertarian, independant, The green party and a host of others.
http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm

Than to futher make things tough most people who vote are not easily put into one category or another. They may vote democratic on one issue, republican on another and indepedant on still a third.

Than to even complicate matters more politicians in the USA work by forming alliances. Alliances with others in politics and with lobby groups. So many times they well may be pushing for an issue they don't agree with in an effort to play ball in their profession.
http://www.politicalindex.com/sect10.htm

At some point to wrangle with the complexity of it all labels have a purpose. For instance I would be likely by most be considered a secular moderate liberal.

Secular because I am 100 percent behind seperation of church and state
liberal because i am
pro-partial gun control
anti-death penalty (or more specifically limiting it)
pro-abortion
non-war hawk (war hawks are those who believe war is the most effect foreign policy)
pro increase in socialized medicine so a small degree

rather than spell all that out and more I would say that this label makes it easy to presuppose and organize my general stance on various issues.

On the other hand I do agree with some capalists ideas that are very libertarian and/or republican. I agree with many issues of the green party. But overall my major buttons are associated with moderate liberal. Overall the labels I think are a way to organize the complexity of it all and only a facist communist would think other wise. (just kidding )

The countering of an arguement however by labeling you and addressing that instead of the issue is called an ad hominem and my advice would be to call them on it, not adddress your label and return to the issue at hand.
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum ad hominem

 

[Jaymes]

Because 'us vs. them' mentality spreads easily. Liberal or conservative. Republican or democrat. Right or wrong, with us or against us...

It aids nothing to accuse someone of being a dirty liberal/republican/gay-lover/gay-hater/Commie/whatever. It's just a cop out from debate.

 

[Darkdale]

I am using this opportunity to vent a little and possibly do a little debating. I have noticed a recurring topic lately on the debates section. It seems that whenever someone has an opposing point of view, they are labeled a liberal or conservative, depending on the orientation of the original poster. And then later on are accused of trying to force their opinions on other members whether it be politically or religiously fueled. These accusations seem to come rather often lately and it seems like the actual act of debating is put on a side burner so that everyone can take turns claiming or insulting someones political or religious agenda.

Any thoughts on the issue?
Oh! And if I am totally off base with this question feel free to cyber kick me in the head.

Bah! Only a liberal would post a post like this!

( )

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

i am inbetween moderate and conservative. i think we shoudln't enforce stricter gun control, except for fully automatic weapons. all others should be legal. anti-death penalty, we should put those lazies to work. i think there should be tighter abortion control, and only able to abort non-viable and deformed fetuses.

 

[robtex]

i am inbetween moderate and conservative. i think we shoudln't enforce stricter gun control, except for fully automatic weapons. all others should be legal. anti-death penalty, we should put those lazies to work. i think there should be tighter abortion control, and only able to abort non-viable and deformed fetuses.

That is good that you know where you stand on this. I am happy when I find others politially active. I go from happy to thrilled when someone has actually taken the time to learn the debt and constraints of the issues involved. Great job on being politically savy.

 

[turk179]

No, I've noticed it too. People don't really want to discuss things anymore. They just say, "stop forcing your opinions on me," and then argue about that. Debates are specificially for forcing your opinions on others. If you can't "force them back off" with some evidence of your own, don't post in a debate!

I agree although I would describe why I debate a little differently. I would substitute the words "force your opinions" with "open your mind."

Because 'us vs. them' mentality spreads easily. Liberal or conservative. Republican or democrat. Right or wrong, with us or against us...

It aids nothing to accuse someone of being a dirty liberal/republican/gay-lover/gay-hater/Commie/whatever. It's just a cop out from debate.

I totaly agree.

Bah! Only a liberal would post a post like this!

:biglaugh:

Orion politics is really complicated. Not only is there conservative, liberal but there is moderate that can be added to each. Democrat, republican libertarian, independant, The green party and a host of others.
http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm

Than to futher make things tough most people who vote are not easily put into one category or another. They may vote democratic on one issue, republican on another and indepedant on still a third.

Than to even complicate matters more politicians in the USA work by forming alliances. Alliances with others in politics and with lobby groups. So many times they well may be pushing for an issue they don't agree with in an effort to play ball in their profession.
http://www.politicalindex.com/sect10.htm

At some point to wrangle with the complexity of it all labels have a purpose. For instance I would be likely by most be considered a secular moderate liberal.

Secular because I am 100 percent behind seperation of church and state
liberal because i am
pro-partial gun control
anti-death penalty (or more specifically limiting it)
pro-abortion
non-war hawk (war hawks are those who believe war is the most effect foreign policy)
pro increase in socialized medicine so a small degree

rather than spell all that out and more I would say that this label makes it easy to presuppose and organize my general stance on various issues.

On the other hand I do agree with some capalists ideas that are very libertarian and/or republican. I agree with many issues of the green party. But overall my major buttons are associated with moderate liberal. Overall the labels I think are a way to organize the complexity of it all and only a facist communist would think other wise. (just kidding )

The countering of an arguement however by labeling you and addressing that instead of the issue is called an ad hominem and my advice would be to call them on it, not adddress your label and return to the issue at hand.
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/falla...%20ad%20hominem

Now thats a post! Closely describes my own political views. But why do you think people use the above list of accusations that Jensa listed as a form of debate?

Fat Kat Matt. Do you feel that people use these things as a debate or as Jensa said, a cop out? And why?

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

you mean, labelling people commie/homophobe/liberal etc? yes, it is a cop out. it isn't exactly conductive to debate if you blurt out, "go choke on a sausage and die, you pig!" (like michael savage), it only weakens your position on both sides.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

That is good that you know where you stand on this. I am happy when I find others politially active. I go from happy to thrilled when someone has actually taken the time to learn the debt and constraints of the issues involved. Great job on being politically savy.

well, thank you. I'm flattered to know that someone thinks i am politically savvy. i guess it comes from listening to Sean Hannity and reading Stupid White Men

 

[turk179]

you mean, labelling people commie/homophobe/liberal etc? yes, it is a cop out. it isn't exactly conductive to debate if you blurt out, "go choke on a sausage and die, you pig!" (like michael savage), it only weakens your position on both sides.

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: Thats awesome!! I havn't heard a stupid Michael Savage quote in a long time.

 

[robtex]

Now thats a post! Closely describes my own political views. But why do you think people use the above list of accusations that Jensa listed as a form of debate?

Because within the spectrum of opinion on any one topic there will be two sets at the either extreme so diametrically opposed that it will seem natural to cateogorize them if they happen to fall within the generally accpeted platfrom of republican democrat or other. Catorgiaztion is a human organization skill. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Frubals to Jensa for her (as usual) wonderful take on the matter.

I think that in labelling another person, we seek to make them (in our minds) less than another sentient being. ("Oh, you believe in such and such? You must be a liberal/conservative.") The wealth of the human experience can't be limited to just one label. We'd be no different than banannas if we did that. (And this is speaking as someone who compusively sticks the label on her forehead when she eats a bananna.)

 

[Bennettresearch]

Because within the spectrum of opinion on any one topic there will be two sets at the either extreme so diametrically opposed that it will seem natural to cateogorize them if they happen to fall within the generally accpeted platfrom of republican democrat or other. Catorgiaztion is a human organization skill. Nothing more nothing less.

Hi Rob,

Well let's see. you said republicrat democan right wing liberal moderate conservative lefty communist socialistic capitalist what?

 

[Bennettresearch]

I It seems that whenever someone has an opposing point of view, they are labeled a liberal or conservative, depending on the orientation of the original poster. And then later on are accused of trying to force their opinions on other members whether it be politically or religiously fueled. These accusations seem to come rather often lately and it seems like the actual act of debating is put on a side burner so that everyone can take turns claiming or insulting someones political or religious agenda.

Hi Orion,

My take on this is that over the last 15 years or so people have become agenda oriented. And so, depending on one's personal agenda they align themselves with a particular side, in this case it is mostly liberal or conservative. I do find that a lot of posts and threads are a rehash of a particular subject or position on one of the myriad of social issues going on nowadays. It is like the same subject, different thread, over and over and over again. I think a lot of people come into religious forums with an agenda and immediately set out opening up a debate that they themselves cannot handle when presented with a little opposition.

 

[robtex]

Hi Orion,

My take on this is that over the last 15 years or so people have become agenda oriented. And so, depending on one's personal agenda they align themselves with a particular side, in this case it is mostly liberal or conservative. I do find that a lot of posts and threads are a rehash of a particular subject or position on one of the myriad of social issues going on nowadays. It is like the same subject, different thread, over and over and over again. I think a lot of people come into religious forums with an agenda and immediately set out opening up a debate that they themselves cannot handle when presented with a little opposition.

Making a footnote on agendas. Understand many things get accomplished in politics due to policitcal alliances. Many members in poliitical power realize that synergy on issues moves them in a direction that are intending to go but that off-shoot of that is that at times they have to promote ideas there party may be apathic to. Further complications arrive when lobbying groups, who wield voting power push for an agenda. In relation to the Tom Delay indicted thread one can see how important the protocol becomes when enforcing campaign contrabution laws because if lobby groups could, with free reign form and use money at will to push issues the balance of power would to some degree shift towards the lobby groups and away from the goverement.

Many small bills and ideas probably go but agendas are what create a rallying point for people within goverment and those who cheer on the sidelines in the form of lobbyists.

 

[michel]

Good posts all round; from Jensa, Feathers, Robtex - and others (forgive me if I have left you out of the list)


I personally tend to agree with the title of the thread as it stands: Liberal or Conservative ? who cares........... What is in a name ? I have known many racist liberals, as well as conservatives who accept the role of Homosexuals in society; but them I am talking U.K.

 

[Darkdale]

It's interesting, the Liberal v. Conservative thing has created a great deal of division within the pagan community. On one pagan forum I'm at, several people have left because the moderators will not silence conservative opinions. They complain that being "conservative" = "hate speech" and therefore conservatives shouldn't be allowed on the forum. On a blog I saw this morning, I found a post indicating that "conservative pagans" are Nazis, by definition no less.

Even on the most tolerant of pagan forums, conservatives are treated with disdain and hatred, by the vast majority. We're not prevented from voicing our opinions, but we are targeted by moderators, where as liberals are completely left alone. Thankfully Asatru is split pretty evenly between conservatives and liberals, so as a community, we just try to ignore politics in order to keep the Frith, in fact, it's a part of many kindred by-laws. Frith amongst kith and kin is more important than politics, no matter what.

This is one of the few religious sites where I feel conservatives are given a far shot (we're out numbered, but treated fairly and with respect). Thankfully, pagan conservatives are beginning to gather together; eventually we will be forced to create our own community where we will be free to discuss politics without being harassed.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

That's terribly sad news, Darkdale! It's so sad that you'd always want for your own religion to be accepting of all views (especially when that's one of the reasons a lot of people turn to paganism in the first place) but are reminded that this isn't so.

I'm sorry that I don't know the definition of "Frith"- the closest I could think of was "Firth", but that means body of water. I'd love to know what it means, even if you have to wander over to the earth-based area.

 

[Darkdale]

I'm sorry that I don't know the definition of "Frith"- the closest I could think of was "Firth", but that means body of water. I'd love to know what it means, even if you have to wander over to the earth-based area.

Frith basically means Brotherhood, respect, civility and peace.

There is a great deal of Frith between heathens (except for those who use our religion to further a racist agenda... we get a little intolerant about that) - but it's the "pagan" forums I find that are so intolerant and the result is that conservative pagans are retreating and clustering together, just to avoid harassment. A lot of "pagans" are actually looking to Asatru for a place where they can feel welcomed and safe. They aren't really heathens, so they feel out of place and it's a damn shame that they can't get respect and kindness from their own people. I guess that's the thing; maybe most pagans don't view each other as being brothers and sisters. They aren't "a people". So I guess there is no reason for them to have brotherhood and respect for one another. But it is sad.

The liberal vs. conservative thing has become so divisive as to make people truly disrespect each other.