Liberals Face Division Over Israel's Human Rights Violations

[Revoltingest]

I've been wondering if / when this would happen.
Israel has managed public relations such that its
support here has been rock solid & unquestioned.
Hamas's hideous attack has up-ended this foundation
by provoking Israel to over-react... a far more hideous
response....a "ten eyes for an eye" kind of vengeance
upon the populace. This appears to be their design.

Liberals face a reckoning of their values, ie, Israel vs
human rights for Palestinians, no longer able to ignore
the latter, & tolerance for Islam being challenged.
Unified support for Israel is cracking, & this could affect
the 2024 election by weakening the Democrats.
Heaven forbid that this opens the door for Trump's
return to power.

The Left Is Tearing Itself Apart Over Israel

Pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian liberal factions are now divided as ugly accusations fly in both directions.

www.wsj.com

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/politics/democratic-divisions-israel-biden/index.html

Many issues arise from this.
Argue away, folks.

 

[Revoltingest]

Conservatives appear to be unfazed by Israel's war crimes.
I attribute this to their fundamentalist Christian base's
strong bias towards God's Chosen People, & disdain for Islam.
This will serve them in 2024, when they might even attract
fervently pro-Israel Democrats & independents.

 

[Jimmy]

Conservatives appear to be unfazed by Israel's war crimes.
I attribute this to their fundamentalist Christian base's
strong bias towards God's Chosen People, & disdain for Islam.
This will serve them in 2024, when they might even attract
fervently pro-Israel Democrats & independents.

I don’t think those are the reasons. I think it’s simply because of the horrors that went down on oct 7. Nothing more.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don’t think those are the reasons. I think it’s simply because of the horrors that went down on oct 7. Nothing more.

Of course. Conservative Christians tend to see
that which reinforces what they already believe.
So they're keenly aware of & angered by Hamas's
attack. But they cast a blind eye towards Israel's
killing, injuring, & displacing far more Palestinians.
The suffering of Muslims is cloaked in invisibility
during a religious war.
Israel's PR machine is working over-time on this.
I've been surveying the Drudge Report & NPR.
The ratio of articles sympathetic to Israel vs
Palestinians is about 5 to 1. (I'm actually
surprised that Palestinians are getting this
much sympathy in USA.)

 

[Jimmy]

Of course. Conservative Christians tend to see
that which reinforces what they already believe.
So they're keenly aware & angered by Hamas's
attack. But they cast a blind eye towards Israel's
killing, injuring, & displacing far more Palestinians.
The suffering of Muslims is cloaked in invisibility
during a religious war.

No one’s blind. I’m certain they are compassionate towards Palestinians at this time. In their minds a response to oct 7 had to come.

Im not saying it’s right. Im just saying. I’ve asked people here how Israel couldve responded differently and no one yet has been able to answer.

It’s a sad war unfortunately.

 

[Revoltingest]

No one’s blind. I’m certain they are compassionate towards Palestinians at this time. In their minds a response to oct 7 had to come.

What evidence do you have?
Their suspected compassion isn't evidenced
by either word or deed that I've seen.

Im not saying it’s right. Im just saying. I’ve asked people here how Israel couldve responded differently and no one yet has been able to answer.

It’s a sad war unfortunately.

To understand what people really value, we can't
just ask them a question outside of context.
"Do you value Muslim lives as much as Jewish ones?"
I'd expect "Of course. All human life is sacred."
But the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians,
with Christians (especially conservative ones)
cheering them on tells the opposite story.

I'm reminded of the question posed by another....
Would Israel use the same military methods if
Hamas's tunnels were under a Jewish city?

 

[Jimmy]

What evidence do you have?
Their suspected compassion isn't evidenced
by either word or deed that I've seen.

To understand what people really value, we can't
just ask them a question outside of context.
"Do you value Muslim lives as much as Jewish ones?"
I'd expect "Of course. All human life is sacred."
But the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians,
with Christians (especially conservative ones)
cheering them on tells the opposite story.

I'm reminded of the question posed by another....
Would Israel use the same military methods if
Hamas's tunnels were under a Jewish city?

I just think Israel wants to make sure that nothing like October 7 happens again. Again, I’m not saying it’s right but they’re reacting to what happened.

 

[Jimmy]

What evidence do you have?
Their suspected compassion isn't evidenced
by either word or deed that I've seen.

To understand what people really value, we can't
just ask them a question outside of context.
"Do you value Muslim lives as much as Jewish ones?"
I'd expect "Of course. All human life is sacred."
But the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians,
with Christians (especially conservative ones)
cheering them on tells the opposite story.

I'm reminded of the question posed by another....
Would Israel use the same military methods if
Hamas's tunnels were under a Jewish city?

I mean do you have any better ideas as to how Israel should’ve responded to the October 7 attack?

 

[Revoltingest]

I just think Israel wants to make sure that nothing like October 7 happens again.

There is that, but there is also vengeance.

Again, I’m not saying it’s right but they’re reacting to what happened.

They should consider the consequences of their reaction.
It will only inspire more October Sevenths.
Fundamentally, the problem is Israel's brutal oppression
of Palestinians. That must stop before peace can exist.

 

[Revoltingest]

I mean do you have any better ideas as to how Israel should’ve responded to the October 7 attack?

I've argued that response should be surgical,
preserving civilian lives & property to a far
greater extent.
And simultaneously treat this as an edifying
event....realize that ending the oppression,
torture, group punishment, & human rights
violations will quell feelings that inspire
violent revolt.

 

[Jimmy]

It’s easy to spout views about

There is that, but there is also vengeance.

They should consider the consequences of their reaction.
It will only inspire more October Sevenths.
Fundamentally, the problem is Israel's brutal oppression
of Palestinians. That must stop before peace can exist.

This sounds like you’re justifying what happened October 7

 

[Revoltingest]

It’s easy to spout views about

This sounds like you’re justifying what happened October 7

That's what Israel's apologists leap to because
attacking the messenger is easier than defending
the indefensible. They use "blame" as a tool of
deflection from their responsibility.
I say that Hamas's attack was a direct consequence
of Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians. Israel
is responsible for its policies, & therefore for the
predictable consequences.
Israel is the far greater power in this relationship,
with full financial & military backing of USA.
Thus, it has the lion's share of responsibility to
craft a solution....a real & durable solution.

 

[Stevicus]

I've been wondering if / when this would happen.
Israel has managed public relations such that its
support here has been rock solid & unquestioned.
Hamas's hideous attack has up-ended this foundation
by provoking Israel to over-react... a far more hideous
response....a "ten eyes for an eye" kind of vengeance
upon the populace. This appears to be their design.

Liberals face a reckoning of their values, ie, Israel vs
human rights for Palestinians, no longer able to ignore
the latter, & tolerance for Islam being challenged.
Unified support for Israel is cracking, & this could affect
the 2024 election by weakening the Democrats.
Heaven forbid that this opens the door for Trump's
return to power.

The Left Is Tearing Itself Apart Over Israel

Pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian liberal factions are now divided as ugly accusations fly in both directions.

www.wsj.com

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/politics/democratic-divisions-israel-biden/index.html

Many issues arise from this.
Argue away, folks.

I suppose the key question is whether this internal rift among liberals and progressives would be enough to shift support over to the GOP. Would it would be a dealbreaker for some? Possibly, although it's hard to imagine that many people suddenly becoming MAGA supporters all because they felt AOC or Bernie Sanders weren't pro-Palestinian enough.

I've noticed an increasing prevalence of the idea that people find it unacceptable for others to try to take a more measured and objective approach, without necessarily giving a blank check of support to one side or the other.

 

[Jimmy]

That's what Israel's apologists leap to because
attacking the messenger is easier than defending
the indefensible. They use "blame" as a tool of
deflection from their responsibility.
I say that Hamas's attack was a direct consequence
of Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians. Israel
is responsible for its policies, & therefore for the
predictable consequences.
Israel is the far greater power in this relationship,
with full financial & military backing of USA.
Thus, it has the lion's share of responsibility to
craft a solution....a real & durable solution.

No Doubt Israel’s brutal oppression must stop

 

[Revoltingest]

I suppose the key question is whether this internal rift among liberals and progressives would be enough to shift support over to the GOP. Would it would be a dealbreaker for some? Possibly, although it's hard to imagine that many people suddenly becoming MAGA supporters all because they felt AOC or Bernie Sanders weren't pro-Palestinian enough.

Many people vote because they despise one candidate
less than the other. This is seldom "support".
Other people are on the fence, & policy towards Israel
could tip them to the other side.
You should think of "meta stability" instead of stability.
Especially when elections have been so close lately.
The slightest shove can have huge consequences.

Metastability - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jimmy]

That's what Israel's apologists leap to because
attacking the messenger is easier than defending
the indefensible. They use "blame" as a tool of
deflection from their responsibility.
I say that Hamas's attack was a direct consequence
of Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians. Israel
is responsible for its policies, & therefore for the
predictable consequences.
Israel is the far greater power in this relationship,
with full financial & military backing of USA.
Thus, it has the lion's share of responsibility to
craft a solution....a real & durable solution.

It’s kind of strange though when I first started learning about this conflict i kept being told it was complex it was complex it was complex. But now it seems it isnt complex anymore. It seems the root of the problem is Israel’s brutal oppression of the Palestinians. So what was all this complex talk??? Funny how things get simple real quick

 

[rosends]

 

[Revoltingest]

It’s kind of strange though when I first started learning about this conflict i kept being told it was complex it was complex it was complex. But now it seems it isnt complex anymore. It seems the root of the problem is Israel’s brutal oppression of the Palestinians. So what was all this complex talk??? Funny how things get simple real quick

To invoke complexity can be a wonderful tool
to obscure the fundamentals of an issue.

It's just like the many repeated attempts on RF
to prove the existence of God using arcane
premises & symbolic logic.
If the argument is complex enuf, then the basic
problem of no evidence is avoided.

 

[anna.]

I've been wondering if / when this would happen.

I haven't been wondering. I saw it the next day.

Everywhere I look online this morning (multiple liberal/progressive sites), there's a huge rift sundering apart people that would normally be in agreement or reasonably adjacent in their political outlooks and discussions. I can't think of another situation that's as equally divisive as yesterday's attack and the inevitable response to come. People whose opinions I respect are livid with each other, it's like a giant cleaver swung through. I'm not seeing similar at right-wing sites because they're pretty solidly united with Israel. The effect is so big I don't know what to make of it right now but wanted to mark the observation in the moment.

 

[Revoltingest]

I haven't been wondering. I saw it the next day.

I've been wondering it for decades.
The cognitive dissonance required for
blind support of Israel looked doomed.