Life begins at....?

[Kalidas]

I noticed you said "viability" - why? What could possibly confer personhood at the point of viability?

I say viability because it is at this point that the brain begins to function in a "humanistic way". Before this point it is just cells doing what cells do, after this point the brain begins responding to stimuli beyond itself. Which is the first steps to consciousness and awareness.

After all, we are nothing but a conglomeration of genes and how said genes are expressed when environmental stimuli is presented over a long period of time. The BIGGEST difference between an adult and a fetus of this age is the amount,severity,and time span of environmental changes causing the brain to respond

 

[Yadon]

If it has human nerve tissue and can react to it's environment, it's alive. I've seen an abortion video with an ultrasound showing a fetus react to the suction tube, moving away from it. It was horrific.

But I don't think that point of being alive really matters until it can have some rudimentary awareness of it's environment and process pain. This stage is somewhere before viability. Before then it's still technically alive but just not a "person" yet. Even bacteria is alive but it doesn't feel pain and isn't really aware.

 

[Kalidas]

If it has human nerve tissue and can react to it's environment, it's alive. I've seen an abortion video with an ultrasound showing a fetus react to the suction tube, moving away from it. It was horrific.

But I don't think that point of being alive really matters until it can have some rudimentary awareness of it's environment and process pain. This stage is somewhere before viability. Before then it's still technically alive but just not a "person" yet. Even bacteria is alive but it doesn't feel pain and isn't really aware.

Actually pain is not felt until about third trimester. Sometimes not even then. Again I think pain is a horrible indicator of "personhood". There are plenty of people who never feel pain due to developmental issues, does this make them a non-person?

"point of being alive really matters until it can have some rudimentary awareness",I think you had it right, when you said this.

 

[Yadon]

Actually pain is not felt until about third trimester. Sometimes not even then. Again I think pain is a horrible indicator of "personhood". There are plenty of people who never feel pain due to developmental issues, does this make them a non-person?

"point of being alive really matters until it can have some rudimentary awareness",I think you had it right, when you said this.

Well pain is also psychological and emotional. Just because one can't feel physical pain doesn't mean they can't feel hurt. I think it's a part of what makes us human, but not the only part.

I guess the issue is more nuanced than I realized.

 

[Kalidas]

Well pain is also psychological and emotional. Just because one can't feel physical pain doesn't mean they can't feel hurt. I think it's a part of what makes us human, but not the only part.

I guess the issue is more nuanced than I realized.

emotional pain develops slowly and in stages. First generally is fear, then things like shame doubt guilt pop up later. Anger greed depression again pops up later. And sadly again not everyone will feel these feeling the same way.

It is VERY nuanced. The reasons I stated above is why I say at viability,because it is at this point the brain (unknowingly) begins to react to stimuli,which is the rudimentary stages to consciousness and is the beginning of "person hood"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I say viability because it is at this point that the brain begins to function in a "humanistic way". Before this point it is just cells doing what cells do, after this point the brain begins responding to stimuli beyond itself. Which is the first steps to consciousness and awareness.

That's not what viability is at all. The point of viability is the point when a prematurely born baby has at least some possibility of surviving. It's constantly changing as medical technology improves and doesn't have a whole lot to do with cognitive development. For instance, IIRC, viability is currently limited by lung development, generally: before a certain gestational age, fetal lungs just aren't developed enough to take in enough oxygen, even with a respirator.

I can think of a few ways to mark the line between personhood and non-personhood, but none of them have anything to do with lung function.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

emotional pain develops slowly and in stages. First generally is fear, then things like shame doubt guilt pop up later. Anger greed depression again pops up later. And sadly again not everyone will feel these feeling the same way.

It is VERY nuanced. The reasons I stated above is why I say at viability,because it is at this point the brain (unknowingly) begins to react to stimuli,which is the rudimentary stages to consciousness and is the beginning of "person hood"

So you're saying that as medical technology has improved and viability becomes earlier and earlier, fetuses have begun responding to stimuli earlier and earlier too?

How do the fetuses know when viability has occurred?

 

[Kalidas]

That's not what viability is at all. The point of viability is the point when a prematurely born baby has at least some possibility of surviving. It's constantly changing as medical technology improves and doesn't have a whole lot to do with cognitive development. For instance, IIRC, viability is currently limited by lung development, generally: before a certain gestational age, fetal lungs just aren't developed enough to take in enough oxygen, even with a respirator.

I can think of a few ways to mark the line between personhood and non-personhood, but none of them have anything to do with lung function.

I know what "biological viability is" but currently with our technology this is at the point when the brain is developed enough to begin the early steps of cognitive processes. Sorry my wording was confusing, that was my fault. I was talking of viability in the sense of it like a noun, not that WAS the explanation of viability. I am sure one day we will be able to pull a zygote from a woman one day and keep it alive out of the womb, I would not call it a person though.