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Life/Existence Can Only Come From Nonlife/No Existence

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
In my opinion, the most powerful and enigmatic thing in existence is the infinite universe itself. Yes, I think there’s only one universe and that it is infinite. Anyway, when existence came to be is when I think life was first formed. Life is so complex and so little is understood. One might say life is alien to our planet. I do think it took something as awesome as the beginning of the universe to spark life. I also believe that it is the death of one certain life that will spark the end/beginning of the known universe and so on and so forth. It is this cycle and relationship between the universe and life that makes existence possible for eternity.

I do no subscribe to any of the six theories of abiogenesis which are, the Oparin-Haldane theory (primitive soup), the deep-sea vent theory, the clay theory, the RNA world hypothesis, the ice theory, and the panspermia theory. None of these theories incorporate the most powerful and enigmatic thing in existence, the infinite universe itself. These theories utilize smaller and less significant things. The materials that these theories use seem stale in comparison to life and the infinite universe. Life did not arise from these lesser things in my opinion. Life is enigmatic and needs the best of the best scenarios to spring forth.

If one thinks the infinite universe exists just so other things can exist within it, that would seem to be very amateur and unsung. On the other hand, if one thinks that the universe has some hand in its own destruction/creation through the catalyst of one life that would indeed seem to properly acknowledge its grandiose position and authority.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you account for the infinite universe when cooking dinner?

If this question sounds flippant, then it hopefully conveys an intended point. It is no more necessary to account for the infinite universe when exploring how life originated on Earth than it is to consider the infinite universe when cooking dinner. When you are cooking dinner, you're cooking dinner - accounting for an allegedly infinite universe is not relevant to the intended purpose of cooking your dinner and well outside the scope of what matters for that activity. The same principle applies to accounting for the origin of life on Earth - accounting for an allegedly infinite universe is not relevant. That's not the point, that's not the purpose, it's outside the scope of what abiogenesis is intending to explore.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
In my opinion, the most powerful and enigmatic thing in existence is the infinite universe itself. Yes, I think there’s only one universe and that it is infinite. Anyway, when existence came to be is when I think life was first formed. Life is so complex and so little is understood. One might say life is alien to our planet. I do think it took something as awesome as the beginning of the universe to spark life. I also believe that it is the death of one certain life that will spark the end/beginning of the known universe and so on and so forth. It is this cycle and relationship between the universe and life that makes existence possible for eternity.

I do no subscribe to any of the six theories of abiogenesis which are, the Oparin-Haldane theory (primitive soup), the deep-sea vent theory, the clay theory, the RNA world hypothesis, the ice theory, and the panspermia theory. None of these theories incorporate the most powerful and enigmatic thing in existence, the infinite universe itself. These theories utilize smaller and less significant things. The materials that these theories use seem stale in comparison to life and the infinite universe. Life did not arise from these lesser things in my opinion. Life is enigmatic and needs the best of the best scenarios to spring forth.

If one thinks the infinite universe exists just so other things can exist within it, that would seem to be very amateur and unsung. On the other hand, if one thinks that the universe has some hand in its own destruction/creation through the catalyst of one life that would indeed seem to properly acknowledge its grandiose position and authority.

While it is interesting that you wanted to beyond the boundaries of the earth, beyond that of the Solar System, and even of galaxies beyond the Milky Way - what you have called infinite universe, that you are trying to think WAY OUTSIDE THE BOX…

…but thinking outside the box, if you cannot tame your imaginations with some boundaries, like thinking what are logically probable that are supported by some evidence, then all you have are just wild flights of imagination, that are just “what if” fictions.

Without evidence, it isnt even hypothesis, let alone a scientific theory.

What you call theories in some of your list are still hypotheses, not theories.

The Abiogenesis is still a hypothesis, not a theory.

When you wrote -

“I do no subscribe to any of the six theories of abiogenesis which are…”

They are not “6 theories”, Jimmy. They are 6 models proposed for the Abiogenesis hypothesis. Six “proposed hypothetical” models, 6 proposed scenarios with logical and detailed explanations that goes with each respective scenarios.

And btw, a hypothesis - not talking specifically with Abiogenesis hypothesis, but “hypothesis” in general, here (in this paragraph) - before you start writing any model to a hypothesis, the hypothesis cannot be made of anything at top of one’s head (meaning not some nonexistent & imaginary scenarios, like from dreams or from acid-trip hallucinations or from just inventive made-up imagination alone), a hypothesis HAS TO BASED ON PRELIMINARY OBSERVATIONS!

That’s very important before starting a hypothesis, and it is one of the requirements in the Scientific Method, prior to developing a hypothesis.

The starting point of Scientific Method, begins with OBSERVATIONS of some specific phenomena that you might have QUESTIONS you want answers for, like WHAT it is & HOW it works types of questions.

The OBSERVATIONS and QUESTIONS (together) come first, followed by the next step to the Scientific Method, which is - RESEARCH what were or have been “observed phenomena”, trying to understand the observations.

After the research, if the research is falsifiable, then, and only then, can you begin attempting to explain the observed phenomena, the next step to Scientific Method is the FORMULATION OF THE HYPOTHESIS.

A hypothesis not only includes sets of explanations (hence explanatory models), but sets of predictions (predictive models) that you expect the tests (eg evidence or experiments) should meet. The predictions are like setting some benchmarks, when you start testing the hypothesis.

So if the evidence or experiments don’t support the hypothesis’ predictions, then the hypothesis has been refuted…so the hypothesis failed to being incorrect, inaccurate or it is flawed.

Those are the reasons why predictions or predictive are needed to be included in a hypothesis.

Another thing needed in a hypothesis, are methodology of how one would test a hypothesis. So a hypothesis needs to include -

(A) either instructions on how to perform an experiment or experiments (eg what instruments needed to experiment, what instruments needed to observe & measure the experiment, what specimens or samples to use in experiment, etc),​
(B) or instructions on where, when and how to find physical evidence, and what instruments or equipment would be needed to locate or identify the evidence.​

Performing experiments (A) are usually performed in controlled environments, like in a laboratory. Lab experiments also allowed scientists to controlled as much variables as possible.

B, is where scientists tried to find evidence in the natural environment, outside of the laboratory, hence this would involve possibly fieldwork.

Of course, a scientist might include A & B in his or her hypothesis. The more evidence & test results from lab experiments, the better it is to test the hypothesis.

Once a scientist have completed his or her hypothesis that includes explanations, predictions and methodology of how to test the hypothesis, the scientist can begin the next 2 stages of Scientific Method: TESTING THE HYPOTHESIS, and ANALYSE THE DATA. These 2 steps, actually go together, hand-in-hand. Every time you do the tests, the experiment & evidence should yield some data, like quantities, measurements, etc, and these data have to be analyzed, whether they are same as the previous evidence or experiments. So the more test results from lab experiments or the more evidence acquired, then data needed to be analyzed, and compared, and to determine if these tests & data support or don’t support the hypothesis’ predictions.

The final stage of the Scientific Method is, once you have sufficient evidence and analyzed all the data, then come REPORTING THE CONCLUSION.

I know I have gone beyond what I was saying, a bit off topic, but it is very important for you to understand, that a hypothesis have to be based on observed real-world phenomena, and not something just imagined.

You also need to understand that a hypothesis has to be testable, and eventually tested. And you can only test a hypothesis, if you are capable of finding evidence or performing experiments.

So without the test, then any concept or claim would be deemed unfalsifiable (another word for “untestable”), unfounded and unreasonable speculations.

So going back to your “infinite universe” scenario, if you cannot obtain evidence from a distant star system or from distant galaxy, then all your talk of infinite universe might be interesting, it would be nevertheless impossible to obtain, and therefore your argument be just unattainable and useless speculation.

You have somewhat misguided impression as to what a theory or a hypothesis is. You think there shouldn’t be any limitations, but you are forgetting how would you test your claim? It isn’t science, if you cannot test them.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
While it is interesting that you wanted to beyond the boundaries of the earth, beyond that of the Solar System, and even of galaxies beyond the Milky Way - what you have called infinite universe, that you are trying to think WAY OUTSIDE THE BOX…

…but thinking outside the box, if you cannot tame your imaginations with some boundaries, like thinking what are logically probable that are supported by some evidence, then all you have are just wild flights of imagination, that are just “what if” fictions.

Without evidence, it isnt even hypothesis, let alone a scientific theory.

What you call theories in some of your list are still hypotheses, not theories.

The Abiogenesis is still a hypothesis, not a theory.

When you wrote -

“I do no subscribe to any of the six theories of abiogenesis which are…”

They are not “6 theories”, Jimmy. They are 6 models proposed for the Abiogenesis hypothesis. Six “proposed hypothetical” models, 6 proposed scenarios with logical and detailed explanations that goes with each respective scenarios.

And btw, a hypothesis - not talking specifically with Abiogenesis hypothesis, but “hypothesis” in general, here (in this paragraph) - before you start writing any model to a hypothesis, the hypothesis cannot be made of anything at top of one’s head (meaning not some nonexistent & imaginary scenarios, like from dreams or from acid-trip hallucinations or from just inventive made-up imagination alone), a hypothesis HAS TO BASED ON PRELIMINARY OBSERVATIONS!

That’s very important before starting a hypothesis, and it is one of the requirements in the Scientific Method, prior to developing a hypothesis.

The starting point of Scientific Method, begins with OBSERVATIONS of some specific phenomena that you might have QUESTIONS you want answers for, like WHAT it is & HOW it works types of questions.

The OBSERVATIONS and QUESTIONS (together) come first, followed by the next step to the Scientific Method, which is - RESEARCH what were or have been “observed phenomena”, trying to understand the observations.

After the research, if the research is falsifiable, then, and only then, can you begin attempting to explain the observed phenomena, the next step to Scientific Method is the FORMULATION OF THE HYPOTHESIS.

A hypothesis not only includes sets of explanations (hence explanatory models), but sets of predictions (predictive models) that you expect the tests (eg evidence or experiments) should meet. The predictions are like setting some benchmarks, when you start testing the hypothesis.

So if the evidence or experiments don’t support the hypothesis’ predictions, then the hypothesis has been refuted…so the hypothesis failed to being incorrect, inaccurate or it is flawed.

Those are the reasons why predictions or predictive are needed to be included in a hypothesis.

Another thing needed in a hypothesis, are methodology of how one would test a hypothesis. So a hypothesis needs to include -

(A) either instructions on how to perform an experiment or experiments (eg what instruments needed to experiment, what instruments needed to observe & measure the experiment, what specimens or samples to use in experiment, etc),​
(B) or instructions on where, when and how to find physical evidence, and what instruments or equipment would be needed to locate or identify the evidence.​

Performing experiments (A) are usually performed in controlled environments, like in a laboratory. Lab experiments also allowed scientists to controlled as much variables as possible.

B, is where scientists tried to find evidence in the natural environment, outside of the laboratory, hence this would involve possibly fieldwork.

Of course, a scientist might include A & B in his or her hypothesis. The more evidence & test results from lab experiments, the better it is to test the hypothesis.

Once a scientist have completed his or her hypothesis that includes explanations, predictions and methodology of how to test the hypothesis, the scientist can begin the next 2 stages of Scientific Method: TESTING THE HYPOTHESIS, and ANALYSE THE DATA. These 2 steps, actually go together, hand-in-hand. Every time you do the tests, the experiment & evidence should yield some data, like quantities, measurements, etc, and these data have to be analyzed, whether they are same as the previous evidence or experiments. So the more test results from lab experiments or the more evidence acquired, then data needed to be analyzed, and compared, and to determine if these tests & data support or don’t support the hypothesis’ predictions.

The final stage of the Scientific Method is, once you have sufficient evidence and analyzed all the data, then come REPORTING THE CONCLUSION.

I know I have gone beyond what I was saying, a bit off topic, but it is very important for you to understand, that a hypothesis have to be based on observed real-world phenomena, and not something just imagined.

You also need to understand that a hypothesis has to be testable, and eventually tested. And you can only test a hypothesis, if you are capable of finding evidence or performing experiments.

So without the test, then any concept or claim would be deemed unfalsifiable (another word for “untestable”), unfounded and unreasonable speculations.

So going back to your “infinite universe” scenario, if you cannot obtain evidence from a distant star system or from distant galaxy, then all your talk of infinite universe might be interesting, it would be nevertheless impossible to obtain, and therefore your argument be just unattainable and useless speculation.

You have somewhat misguided impression as to what a theory or a hypothesis is. You think there shouldn’t be any limitations, but you are forgetting how would you test your claim? It isn’t science, if you cannot test them.
Oh, they’re hypotheses? Google said they were theories. Cool, you learn something new every day.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
In my opinion, the most powerful and enigmatic thing in existence is the infinite universe itself. Yes, I think there’s only one universe and that it is infinite. Anyway, when existence came to be is when I think life was first formed. Life is so complex and so little is understood. One might say life is alien to our planet. I do think it took something as awesome as the beginning of the universe to spark life. I also believe that it is the death of one certain life that will spark the end/beginning of the known universe and so on and so forth. It is this cycle and relationship between the universe and life that makes existence possible for eternity.

I do no subscribe to any of the six theories of abiogenesis which are, the Oparin-Haldane theory (primitive soup), the deep-sea vent theory, the clay theory, the RNA world hypothesis, the ice theory, and the panspermia theory. None of these theories incorporate the most powerful and enigmatic thing in existence, the infinite universe itself. These theories utilize smaller and less significant things. The materials that these theories use seem stale in comparison to life and the infinite universe. Life did not arise from these lesser things in my opinion. Life is enigmatic and needs the best of the best scenarios to spring forth.

If one thinks the infinite universe exists just so other things can exist within it, that would seem to be very amateur and unsung. On the other hand, if one thinks that the universe has some hand in its own destruction/creation through the catalyst of one life that would indeed seem to properly acknowledge its grandiose position and authority.
If you think that the Universe is infinite, then no matter how small the probability of life is, it will happen. infinite times.

BTW, we do not know whether the Universe is infinite. I think it is, but it could very well be finite. Looks flat at large scale, but you can have finite surfaces with zero curvature. For instance the PacMan surface.

Ciao

- viole
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
If you think that the Universe is infinite, then no matter how small the probability of life is, it will happen. infinite times.

BTW, we do not know whether the Universe is infinite. I think it is, but it could very well be finite. Looks flat at large scale, but you can have finite surfaces with zero curvature. For instance the PacMan surface.

Ciao

- viole
No, I don’t think there’s a big deep mystery about it. I’m pretty much certain the infinite universe is void of life except for earth. Yeah I know about the finite theory.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No, I don’t think there’s a big deep mystery about it. I’m pretty much certain the infinite universe is void of life except for earth. Yeah I know about the finite theory.
What mystery? Whether the universe is finite to not, is a scientific question. We simply do not know that.

Therefore, your basic assumption might be wrong.

And how do you know that the Universe is void of life except for earth?

Ciao

- viole
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
What mystery? Whether the universe is finite to not, is a scientific question. We simply do not know that.

Therefore, your basic assumption might be wrong.

And how do you know that the Universe is void of life except for earth?

Ciao

- viole
No, not the mystery whether the universe is finite or not. The mystery about other life. I just know some things.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No, not the mystery whether the universe is finite or not. The mystery about other life. I just know some things.
Oh really? Cool. And how did you manage to acquire that knowledge, exactly?

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
All kinds of wisdom flows from the infinite universe or as I like to call it God.
Let me check.

Nope. the infinite universe just told me that the Universe contains infinite instances of life. Life is basically everywhere.

Now what?

Ciao

- viole
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Let me check.

Nope. the infinite universe just told me that the Universe contains infinite instances of life. Life is basically everywhere.

Now what?

Ciao

- viole
Now we both live and die knowing what we know.
 
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