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Life From Dirt?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Nor need it. If the idea isn't needed to account for what we can observe, we don't have any reason to include it in our models ofreality and how it works.

It is not know if spirit is needed or not.


Genesis 2 is a story focusing on God's creation of humanity in a creation that already existed.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/passages/related-articles/the-two-creations-in-genesis/
Correct. That is consistent with what you responded to: "at this point in time, there is no evidence that needs an intelligent designer to account for, so adding one to the narrative adds useless complexity, useless meaning adding no predictive or explanatory power."

At this point an intelligent designer is need to account for the genetic system.

The cause of you opening your hand preceded the appearance of the volume.

Simultaneous.

No, it is not. I've already explained why that doesn't make sense. Does your god think? Then it changes over time. As soon as you say existing out of time, you are contradicting yourself the way 'married bachelor' does. To exist is to pass through a series of consecutive instants.

We don't know what timelessness is, we have not experienced it.
Maybe knowing replaces thinking/reasoning.
Do abstract concepts like love, life, spirit, knowing, being etc need space to exist?

No, the Age of Reason was the result of the rise of humanism. The idea that the world was rational and comprehensible doesn't come from the Bible. That begins with the ancient Greeks, as I explained to you here last September:

"In the West, rational skepticism was first introduced by the ancient Greek philosophers, whose skepticism about the claims that natural events were punishments from capricious gods led to free speculation about reality. Thales (624 BC - 546 BC) suggested that everything was a form of water, which was the only substance he knew of capable of existing as solid, liquid and gas. What is significant was his willingness to try to explain the workings of nature without invoking the supernatural or appealing to the ancients and their dicta. The more profound implication was that man might be capable of understanding nature, which might operate according to comprehensible rules that he might discover."

It became science when observation was added centuries later. Aristotle famously and erroneously proclaimed that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones without testing the claim.

And it's unsurprising that most scientists were Christian, since it was the work of these scientists that made first deism and then atheism tenable. But their science didn't come from their Bibles, which were already centuries old by then. It came from free speculation - the same thing Thales did - but now with experimentation (rationalism became empiricism).

It was Christianity which led the way in experimentation and observation of nature, and that seemed to be because of their view of a rational God whom men could understand and understand His works because they are rational and we are rational creatures.

Did you mean analyzed empirically (experienced through the senses and understood by the memory and reasoning faculty)? Evidence is also my criteria for belief in daily life. But yes, anything that isn't sufficiently justified by the rules for evaluating evidence is not believed.

There are different topics of study and different approaches to each. You want the rules for the study of science to be applicable for the study of God.

Sound conclusions are the result of valid reasoning applied to evidence (or premises). They are correct statements in the same way that correct sums are the result of valid reasoning (the rules of addition) applied to addends. If you follow the method without error, you are guaranteed a correct result, just life if you follow correct driving instructions, you will arrive at your destination every time. In each case, there is a correct path to follow (literally or figuratively) to derive correct (sound) conclusions, all other paths leading elsewhere. That is the power of critical thinking, and why those that understand it and have developed proficiency in it become uninterested in other way of deciding what is true about the world. It's why the skeptic doesn't accept biblical reports of resurrection. They don't pass that test.

Reasoning is good but if you make a mistake at the beginning, it can follow you through to the end. In this case skeptics make a mistake in initially deciding that God is not needed and everything else falls off the cliff after that.
As Francis Bacon said: I had rather believe all the fables in the Legend, and the Talmud, and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. And therefore, God never wrought miracle, to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it. It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Yes something like that might be possible. I don't think it has anything to do with where a foetus becomes a human however, as I believe the humanity is passed from parents to children at conception.
Humanity is one thing. Infusion of the soul (a rather dubious, Cartesian-duality concept, admittedly) is quite another.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Good luck. I tried to get him to give a clear model of his version of the flood and that was like pulling teeth. I do not think that he will want to get specific. When a person has a belief that they are afraid is wrong being specific makes it possible to refute that idea and believers tend to want to believe. They do not want to be right. That is rather foreign to scientists since they often tend to want to be right more than they want to believe. The scientific method is based on "Here is my idea, this is a model of it, and these tests (and perhaps others) could refute it if it is wrong". Believes get the burden of proof wrong. They tend to say "Here is what I believe (sort of) now prove me wrong. If you can't prove me wrong my belief is justified". That can be seen in the above post by @It Aint Necessarily So . He repeatedly points out when @Brian2 is not supporting his beliefs properly.

It's hard to get specific sometimes when my beliefs on a certain topic are a work in progress.
I try to show where @Aint Necessarily So is wrong also and that is support for my beliefs usually also.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
This condradicts what causality is.

That was easy to do too. Your definition of causality is so obviously BS.

No. The big bang at T =0 is the first cause of the events that follow it at T > 0

Only because of your debunked definition of causality.


I wonder if the Spanish or Ancient Romans used Que in that sense.
Just being, not changing, not doing anything.

You are describing a sequence of events which happen through time in a context where time itself doesn't exist.
"the being was and then acted ..." ==> those are temporal things that require time to flow to occur.

I already gave a cause/effect that happen simultaneously,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or that start simultaneously and continue in time.
If God for example starts to open His hand, a space starts to appear simultaneously with that, which is also the beginning of time.

It doesn't make sense.

Of course it does, just think about it.

I accept potentialities when they are at least not in contradiction with things we actually now.
Your thing is in contradiction with what we actually know.

Things aren't possible just because you can dream them up.
I can talk of a married bachelor as well, doesn't mean it actually makes sense or is actually possible in reality.

I didn't just dream it up, I described it and the description shows it works. You need to think outside the box, whatever box you are in.

That's quite ironic.

No I think it is just an error. It is really me who has trouble with something happening without a cause. Absolutely nothing, and something springs into existence from absolutely nothing is fantasy imo, it is magic.
If you are saying that the quantum universe existed and are calling it nothing, then that is not really nothing and you are really saying the BB had a cause in the quantum universe.
But then we need to find a cause for the quantum universe which could not exist from infinity in time.

And you know this, how?

He told me and I gave a possibility of how the simultaneous cause/effect of a vacuum bubble could happen.

That's quite a claim. Can you support it with proper evidence?

What do you think? We are talking armchair concepts here, not real observation, test science.

No. That's what you believe.

What? So now you want space time to have had no beginning or space time to have caused God? Of course we know that the cause of space time would be God and not the other way round.

False. Opening my fist is very much a temporal flow of events.
How you figure such to be a causeless event or instant where cause and effect are simultaneous is a mystery to me.

You would need a fist that starts to form a gap as soon as the hand starts moving and a few other qualifications for God. You need to get out of thinking of a physical body hand.
But I did not say it was a causeless event.

The "border" would be T = 0.
ie, the moment of the big bang.
So as I said, the first cause is the big bang itself.

As I said, if you want the BB to come from absolutely nothing, then you are proposing magic. If not, then the BB is not the first cause.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, you it backward.

T is simply the “time” of WHEN “event” began. And the “event” is the “initial expansion” or what astrophysicists & cosmologists call the “Big Bang”.

The “initial expansion” then as expand the universe continuously, the universe is becoming less dense and therefore cooler, which would cause a number of other events to occur.

The Big Bang theory have a timeline of when each events took place, and these events are described and explained in numbers of periods, beginning with the Planck Epoch, which lasted from t = 0 second to t = 10^-49 seconds. Other periods followed in succession (eg Grand Unification Epoch, the Electroweak Epoch, the Inflation Epoch, and so on), and each epochs described other events.

If you want to talk about the “First Cause”, then the very first, the initial expansion (within the Planck Epoch) is the 1st cause.

If the universe already existed in another form then the first cause is not really the first cause, it is just part of an ongoing sequence of cause effect events.
If the universe did not exist at T=0 and nothing else existed then you are proposing magic.

You would need evidence to support that such a “being” (eg God) exist in the first place, but no such observations exist.

God, whether you call him Yahweh, Allah, Creator, Designer, etc, don’t exist beyond the stories by superstitious people, who have no real understanding of nature, no real knowledge of astronomy, no real knowledge of the planet Earth, and no real knowledge of biology.

The Bible, the Quran, and all other religious scriptures or texts, offered no real testable explanations. The “God did it” isn’t an explanation, it is a “claim” based on false belief and ignorance.

As to the “space time continuum”, @TagliatelliMonster have already given a logical answer:



Your claim that your “Being” exist outside of the universe, and therefore outside of the “space time continuum”, while still be able to cause the “creation” of the physical universe, not only you have no such evidence to support your claims, you are being illogical, with no understanding of reality.

We are talking about theoretical cosmology that steps over into theology, and you want evidence to support a God when you have nothing to support what you claim, whatever that is.
I suppose you do have theories and speculations, if that is evidence.
I have evidence of a God visiting earth and speaking with people but that is not even evidence for you.
I have the evidence of the intelligent designer of things and the life and consciousness giver but that is not evidence for you.
You win, you have nothing and I can offer you nothing else.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, Brian, there are simply no evidence to test.

Beside that, religious writings only offered claims; they offered no explanations to WHAT spirits are, nor offer how to observe spirits. The scriptures only offered claims, not evidence-based explanations. You would accept claims or beliefs with faith.

Faith isn’t evidence. Faith is a “personal acceptance” of personal belief. Faith requires no evidence.

Having “report of spirits”, are just more claims, and hearsay. There are no evidence to verify any of these so-called “reports” of yours.

So science has no place in theology. Or is the conclusion that nothing that the religious books say can be true?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So science has no place in theology. Or is the conclusion that nothing that the religious books say can be true?

Well, here is as neutral as I can state it.
Science is about what works in a limited sense for a limited part of being human.
Religion is about what works in an other limited sense for an other limited part of being human.

Some people claim science, where it is religion
Some people claim religion, where it is science.
Some people try to only use the relevant method for the relevant part of being human.

I am a religious person, that try not to confuse the 2.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Interesting how people can interpret the Bible differently. I always thought of Satan as the one who wants us free.

The truth sets us free and Satan wants us free from the truth. Jesus said he was a liar and murderer from the beginning.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hmm. I'd say that if it were possible for anything to exist without a time dimension, it would necessarily ─ by definition ─ be changeless; but given that it existed without time, in what sense it could be said to exist at all without spatial dimensions is a real problem for my way of thinking. What do words such as 'to exist', or 'to be' actually seek to denote?

The nature of God is such that He does not need space to exist and does not change. It is just hard for us to comprehend no time nor space even when science tells us this could be the state of things at the BB.
Of course we don't know what time is really and think we know what space is. We experience them both but that is not the same as knowing what they are.

I recall reading in the science news from a couple of decades ago (maybe New Scientist?) about a paper exploring the science of a universe in which time ran backwards, and this (given I recall it correctly) concluded that it would be possible to re-express the rules of nature in coherent form ─ implying predictability (postdictablity?) in such a universe. I also recall another one which set out to examine what difference to our physics a second temporal dimension would make, and that author concluded it would be hard to distinguish the results from the results we have with one such dimension. I mention them as interesting incidents, not as assertions of Great Truth.

Other dimensions are possible imo and another dimension of time is probably possible.
But science mags for popular consumption tend to say outrageous things at times and probably for the sake of selling the mags.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So science has no place in theology. Or is the conclusion that nothing that the religious books say can be true?

When it concern the descriptions of nature (natural phenomena & natural processes), then Genesis, Joshua (eg stopping the sun) and Job, these books got it all wrong.

Nothing in these books have anything of worth in Natural Sciences (which comprised of Physics, Chemistry, Earth sciences, Astronomy and all the fields in Life Sciences).

And if you haven’t look deep enough, the Bible don’t offer explanations, because Genesis creation isn’t science. What Genesis creation and flood are narratives, stories, myths, not explanations of anything HOW it all work.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is not know if spirit is needed or not.
The concept of spirit is not needed at this time to account for biology, psychology, or anything else.
Genesis 2 is a story focusing on God's creation of humanity in a creation that already existed.
That doesn't rebut the claim that there are two creation stories in Genesis. Nor dies it address their contradictions.
At this point an intelligent designer is need to account for the genetic system.
There are hundreds or thousands of researchers in abiogenesis who disagree, as do the those allocating the millions of dollars to underwrite their research.
We don't know what timelessness is, we have not experienced it.
Nor will you. Experience occurs in time.
Maybe knowing replaces thinking/reasoning.
Not in my epistemology. I don't call anything knowledge that isn't justified empirically, which is the addition of reasoning to evidence.
Do abstract concepts like love, life, spirit, knowing, being etc need space to exist?
I can't imagine them existing outside of space.
It was Christianity which led the way in experimentation and observation of nature, and that seemed to be because of their view of a rational God whom men could understand and understand His works because they are rational and we are rational creatures.
You made the claim already and it was rebutted. Unless you want to try to falsify the rebuttal, which unless it contains an error you can demonstrate is an error has falsified that claim already, the debate is over. Debate is the method critical thinkers use to resolve differences of opinion, and ends amicably when one makes an argument that the other cannot rebut, the other thanking him for the demonstration and the new learning. But when one of them ignores a rebuttal and repeats himself, only the other understands that the issue is resolved, the one just repeating himself with no evidence that he has seen or understood the rebuttal.
You want the rules for the study of science to be applicable for the study of God.
The rules of reason are applicable to all claims of fact. And religious theology (as opposed to the Bible as literature or a cultural factor, or comparative religions, all of which are academic studies grounded in evidence), being faith-based and not grounded in evidence, is just unfalsifiable claims about things indistinguishable from the nonexistent. My rules of reason tell me to disregard such claims (Popper's Unfalsifiablity Razor)
skeptics make a mistake in initially deciding that God is not needed and everything else falls off the cliff after that.
No, empiricists look at the available evidence and generate the simplest narrative that accounts for it. They'll invoke gods if that becomes necessary to account for some new finding. You've seen the cosmologists introducing new ideas like dark matter and dark energy to account for recent discoveries not explicable by the narrative of 20th century cosmology, but not a minute before that, and no more was added that needed. Dark matter was not called anything but an unseen source of gravity, not a god, for example. Maybe it is a god and we will discover that someday, but that day hasn't come, and therefore that hypothesis is unneeded.
"God never wrought miracle, to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it."
Apparently not if there are atheists.
It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.
Also, the more sophisticated one's ability to evaluate nature become, the more likely he is to be atheist. Learning more doesn't return him to theism, but dementia might: Antony Flew - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre Lee Strobel claims that it was biblical learning that led him from atheism to theism, but he can't make a compelling argument to critical thinkers, so they reject his claim that his new position is based in reason properly applied to evidence.
You loose all credibility about what the Bible supports or not with your reading of the Tyre prophecy.
Not with me. It's the one using motivated reason to justify his position that loses credibility: "Motivated reasoning is a form of reasoning in which people access, construct, and evaluate arguments in a biased fashion to arrive at or endorse a preferred conclusion."
That is describing what should be done if a pregnant woman is accidentally knocked and loses the baby.
You're missing the implication: "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

The fetus doesn't have the same value or worth as the mother. It's a commodity, like cattle, the loss of which is remediable with a cash payment.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is describing what should be done if a pregnant woman is accidentally knocked and loses the baby.
Fetus or perhaps embryo. Not a baby. Yes, and it showed that when she did that it was just a monetary fine in the time of an eye for an eye. If it was a person why wasn't the man put to death?
 
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