Life, Medication, and Withdrawal

[Debater Slayer]

Since I'm currently going through withdrawal symptoms (withdrawing from two medications at once) that sometimes make being able to function an achievement, I've decided to start this thread and talk about some of the things I've experienced since I first saw a psychiatrist in 2014. Maybe there's even a chance that someone else going through something similar will see this and find it useful, even if slightly.

This is the timeline so far:

July 2014: First psychiatrist visit. Prescribed one SSRI after diagnosing me with unipolar depression.

August 2014: Replaced the SSRI with two others.

September 2014: Added a third SSRI because the two I was on weren't working out well.

October 2014: I ignorantly stopped all three SSRIs cold turkey because, at the time, I didn't know that quitting psychiatric medications abruptly is harmful.

I experienced a surge of suicidal ideation in the following month, and then I realized that stopping the meds cold turkey was a bad idea.

I then saw my second psychiatrist, who put me on two mood stabilizers after diagnosing me with bipolar disorder (which would later turn out to be a misdiagnosis, as I'm going to delve into below). He said all four meds I had tried had been based on a misdiagnosis.

I don't remember exact dates from October 2014 until September 2015, but during that time I was prescribed an antidepressant, which was replaced by an atypical antipsychotic, followed by another atypical antipsychotic. The psychiatrist I was seeing from October 2014 to September 2015 suddenly left the city I'm in, so I had to find another one.

In the last three months with this psychiatrist, I was also seeing a psychologist who worked with him. At first she tried to convert me back to religion when she asked why I was depressed and I told her that social factors, especially some of the prevalent social and religious values, were a major contributor to my deteriorating mental well-being.

When I told her I wasn't going to convert back and that it was basically like asking me to believe Harry Potter was real, she stopped trying and focused on other options that had nothing to do with religion. I eventually stopped seeing her because she turned out to be unhelpful.

November 2015: First session with the new (now third) psychiatrist. Per my request, he replaced Risperdal, the atypical antipsychotic I was on, with Zyprexa. Risperdal made life extremely difficult, both mentally and physically, and it had the worst effect on me out of all of the meds I've tried so far.

December 2015: I saw the same psychiatrist who put me on Zyprexa, this time asking him to guide me through the process of tapering off Zyprexa both because I still experienced some hassling side effects (such as strong sedation, which was especially bad for me because I was studying engineering at the time and needed to not oversleep) and because of potentially irreversible, disabling side effects such as akathisia and tardive dyskinesia.

He refused to take me off the med because he believed I needed it and that taking me off it would cause a lot of harm, so I had to remain on Zyprexa until March 2016 because I knew how harmful it could be to mess around with antipsychotic medications without professional guidance.

The reason I was on antipsychotics in the first place despite not having psychosis or schizophrenia is that atypical antipsychotics are sometimes used to treat bipolar disorder, which was still my diagnosis up to that point.

To be continued in the next post.

 

[Debater Slayer]

March 2016: I saw my fourth psychiatrist. I told her about my fears regarding the potential side effects of being on Zyprexa, so she prescribed three atypical antipsychotics in high doses. She promised I'd improve within a few months' time, so I told her I was still very worried, especially now that the doses were high. She said I'd stop them upon improving and take a regular injection instead to keep my condition stable—an injection of an antipsychotic. I told her outright that I wasn't going to follow the prescription and that I wasn't willing to put myself at that risk. She said, "As you wish, but my advice to you is to follow the prescription and not let your condition deteriorate."

It is worth mentioning that not a single one of the psychiatrists I've seen told me about any of the side effects of any of the meds I've taken, except for the weight gain and increased appetite Zyprexa can cause—and the psychiatrist told me about that only because I asked him if Zyprexa could affect me as badly as Risperdal did. Otherwise he told me to "not read about the side effects and worry [myself]. Just listen to professional advice."

No mentions of the relatively high incidence of extrapyramidal symptoms, including potentially disabling ones, that some antipsychotics have, nor the significant risks clozapine sometimes puts patients at. (Clozapine was one of the three antipsychotics prescribed to me by the doctor I saw in March 2016, and she didn't warn me about any of its side effects either.)

I still insisted on being taken off Zyprexa, so I asked a relative to talk to my third psychiatrist about directions for tapering off, since she had been seeing him for years and he was more open to talking with her than a patient who had only seen him twice. The relative told him about the meds I was taking (he didn't know she was talking about me), and he gave her the directions. I started the process of tapering off in March 2016 and finished it in April 2016, after being on antipsychotics for seven months on end.

The gradual withdrawal from antipsychotics was more difficult than quitting SSRIs cold turkey, which I suspect could have been both due to the fact that I had been on antipsychotics for longer and also the fact that they're very potent substances in general. Feelings of hopelessness, lack of energy and motivation, inability to concentrate, depression, persistent suicidal ideation, and recurring insomnia were present throughout the withdrawal and for several months after I had taken my last pill (except for the insomnia, which only took about a week to calm down and then eventually go away since the very first of the tapering process).

At some point I considered going back to the full dose of Zyprexa because of how difficult withdrawal was, but every time the fear of the potential side effects and the desire to avoid the ones I had actually experienced held me back. Managing through the withdrawal and finally having my system be free of antipsychotics was an extremely rewarding and relieving feeling, though, and it was worth what I experienced to get to that point. It has also changed my outlook in that it has made me thankful and appreciative of the fact that I didn't have to live on this class of meds for my whole life, something that I hadn't even thought about before and had taken for granted.

Between the sedative and mentally and physically draining side effects I was experiencing on Risperdal and then Zyprexa, I could barely study at all, and I sometimes had trouble waking up for university. I failed the whole semester in which I was on said meds, and then I eventually switched majors. Although the antipsychotics weren't the only reason I failed the semester (life in general was particularly rough and turbulent at the time, and to top it all off, I disliked my then-major and found most of the subjects I had to study quite tedious), their side effects were the primary cause of my inability to focus on studying nearly as much as I needed to.

To be continued in the next post (although possibly later, since I have to go offline for a bit now).

 

[Tumah]

with unipolar depression

The North one or the South one?

 

[Nietzsche]

March 2016: I saw my fourth psychiatrist. I told her about my fears regarding the potential side effects of being on Zyprexa, so she prescribed three atypical antipsychotics in high doses. She promised I'd improve within a few months' time, so I told her I was still very worried, especially now that the doses were high. She said I'd stop them upon improving and take a regular injection instead to keep my condition stable—an injection of an antipsychotic. I told her outright that I wasn't going to follow the prescription and that I wasn't willing to put myself at that risk. She said, "As you wish, but my advice to you is to follow the prescription and not let your condition deteriorate."

As someone on anti-psychotics, I'm gonna be really blunt; That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You didn't go to Med School, you aren't qualified to medicate yourself, you don't know what's best for you. You're not seeing a psychiatrist because you're fine, you're seeing one because you aren't.

It is worth mentioning that not a single one of the psychiatrists I've seen told me about any of the side effects of any of the meds I've taken, except for the weight gain and increased appetite Zyprexa can cause—and the psychiatrist told me about that only because I asked him if Zyprexa could affect me as badly as Risperdal did. Otherwise he told me to "not read about the side effects and worry [myself]. Just listen to professional advice."

There's a reason for that. Getting yourself worked up over side effects, expecting side effects, especially from psychiatric medication, can cause you to experience them because it's what you've convinced yourself you should be feeling.

The gradual withdrawal from antipsychotics was more difficult than quitting SSRIs cold turkey, which I suspect could have been both due to the fact that I had been on antipsychotics for longer and also the fact that they're very potent substances in general. Feelings of hopelessness, lack of energy and motivation, inability to concentrate, depression, persistent suicidal ideation, and recurring insomnia were present throughout the withdrawal and for several months after I had taken my last pill (except for the insomnia, which only took about a week to calm down and then eventually go away since the very first of the tapering process).

You should've kept a small supply of them, and cut them into halves or fourths or the like, so when the withdrawals were especially bad you could use it to take the edge off.

At some point I considered going back to the full dose of Zyprexa because of how difficult withdrawal was, but every time the fear of the potential side effects and the desire to avoid the ones I had actually experienced held me back. Managing through the withdrawal and finally having my system be free of antipsychotics was an extremely rewarding and relieving feeling, though, and it was worth what I experienced to get to that point. It has also changed my outlook in that it has made me thankful and appreciative of the fact that I didn't have to live on this class of meds for my whole life, something that I hadn't even thought about before and had taken for granted.

I don't understand this line of thought. There is no shame in needing any kind of medication. Would you feel the same way needing glasses or a hearing aid? That's what psychiatric meds are.

You wear glasses for poor vision, you have a hearing aid for poor hearing, you take psychiatric meds because there's something not quite right in your brain.

Glad the withdrawals didn't kill you, or make you kill yourself, though. That was a very real possibility.

 

[Lyndon]

Most of my friends that went through this "medicine is the enemy, I've got to get off meds" ended up killing themselves, not a very good prognosis. If you shop around enough you'll find a "doctor" that doesn't think you needs meds, no loss to him when you end up dead.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The North one or the South one?

Forgot to ask him. Not sure there's any hope of a good diagnosis now that I don't have this crucial info...

 

[Debater Slayer]

As someone on anti-psychotics, I'm gonna be really blunt; That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You didn't go to Med School, you aren't qualified to medicate yourself, you don't know what's best for you. You're not seeing a psychiatrist because you're fine, you're seeing one because you aren't.

There are two things when it comes to the prescriptions I've tried:

• Not a single one of them has worked out well, and when I had no idea about the possible side effects of antipsychotics, I wondered what was draining me that much and making me unable to function properly when I was on Risperdal. Turned out it was the reason when I looked up the side effects after being that way for about two months.

• I don't know what's best for myself in terms of medication, yes, because of the lack of qualification that you mentioned. But I also think that, for example, someone who prescribes three different antipsychotics in high doses, all without mentioning any potential side effect to look out for and without asking about my medical history in any way, doesn't know what's best for me either. I'd be far less skeptical if it weren't for the nonchalant attitude toward patients' well-being by a lot of doctors, including most of the psychiatrists I've been to. (Not sure about where you are; I'm talking about where I live. Healthcare standards are mostly subpar at best.)

There's a reason for that. Getting yourself worked up over side effects, expecting side effects, especially from psychiatric medication, can cause you to experience them because it's what you've convinced yourself you should be feeling.

Like I mentioned above, I only looked up side effects after experiencing them and wondering what was going on. In Risperdal's case, two psychiatrists told me that two of the side effects it gave me weren't because of it, yet when the second psychiatrist switched to Zyprexa both side effects went away.

I've been on two mood stabilizers for over two years, and the side effects have barely ever been noticeable. I don't worry about those because I haven't had reason to. The latest psychiatrist I've seen has only told me to taper off them because they were based on a misdiagnosis, but they haven't debilitated me like, say, Risperdal or Seroxat.

You should've kept a small supply of them, and cut them into halves or fourths or the like, so when the withdrawals were especially bad you could use it to take the edge off.

I always had some around, yeah. I might actually still have some Zyprexa around somewhere. Quite the souvenir.

I don't understand this line of thought. There is no shame in needing any kind of medication. Would you feel the same way needing glasses or a hearing aid? That's what psychiatric meds are.

You wear glasses for poor vision, you have a hearing aid for poor hearing, you take psychiatric meds because there's something not quite right in your brain.

It's not about shame; I don't think it's shameful at all. It's just about living with the possibility of side effects, be they potential or ones that are actually happening to the person in question.

Glad the withdrawals didn't kill you, or make you kill yourself, though. That was a very real possibility.

Thanks, and they almost did. Zyprexa withdrawal in particular was both a mental and physical pain in the backside, but it subsided after months.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Most of my friends that went through this "medicine is the enemy, I've got to get off meds" ended up killing themselves, not a very good prognosis. If you shop around enough you'll find a "doctor" that doesn't think you needs meds, no loss to him when you end up dead.

Medicine full stop? I don't think so. I know people who would be dead without psychiatric meds. I think it would be a good starting point for myself to find a doctor who cared about his or her patients' well-being above all else. Currently, the psychologist I'm seeing has been very direct and helpful, and she has told me about two psychiatrists so that I'd have both a psychologist and a psychiatrist keeping up with my condition. I've seen one (who is tapering me off the two mood stabilizers); the other is too busy at the moment, but we'll see if her schedule will be less busy down the line.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Hi Debate Slayer,

I feel as if you are in a whirlpool where what you need is a proper diagnosis and the need for information to any medication you might be prescribed.

It would be good to pinpoint the start of your illness and any factors which lead up to it.
The most important point is that there is never a right or wrong prognosis when it comes to treating mental illness.
No two patients however similar their condition will respond the same to their medication.

It is important that you are able to monitor your own mood swings and that you are able to be with people who understand and can help you through the lower ebb times in your life.
Mental illness of any type can have trigger. Including biological such a chemical imbalance in the brain. Have you had a scan to see if this could be a problem and bloods for it?
Also sudden death of a loved one and even pressure from exams if studying hard for qualifications.

You need a plan of action...

I have seen some of the worse cases of mental illness and a lot of people die because of ignorance.
Sometimes they do not like the side affects of the medication but nonetheless it is better than he other side their illness when not on them.
Keeping active and taking up new interests can help. Finding ways to deal with the emotional side and mood swings are also helpful,

One person I know who takes lithium has never been fully diagnosed. Several suicide attempts since the age of 16 he is now been married with a grown son.
And has a black belt in Akido,. He faced his fears and he takes some other medications now and again to help anxious periods. But most mental health issues can be managed if you are
willing to make yourself determined to get to a place where you live despite your illness and moods. Running, walking swimming and many other things which release Endorphins
in the brain giving some pain relief but also a feeling of being relaxed and full of energy. Usually when depressed or anxious being out or exercising is the last thing you want to do.
But if you try brisk walks and other exercise you will be helping yourself to lift your mood.

Just some suggestions to help you. Good luck hope all goes well with you.

 

[Lyndon]

There are no such thing as brain scans or blood test to diagnose mental illness, only theories about chemical imbalances, no testable evidence that I know of.

 

[Lyndon]

From what I know about your case, Debater, I can understand the aversion to the anti psychotic meds as they all have a sedating side effect, that makes you sleep more, contributes to laziness, lack of concentration etc. (I also think anti psychotics are over prescribed for depression. Their main effectiveness is to prevent mania, not depression). However this is not true of the anti manic depressive drugs like lithium, it seems to me if you are not getting side effects, stopping the lithium is not a good idea, 5 years ago I stopped taking my lithium and had a nervous breakdown and ended up in the hospital. You have enough brushes with suicidal thoughts that you do not need to be taking any risks that you do not need to, it seems to me, a manic depressive like lithium, coupled with some kind of anti depressant that you can live with might be the best option, Its hard when you are changing doctors because the new doctor doesn't know your full history with the old doctor, often new doctors want to discontinue old meds and put you on new meds, this can often be a mistake, it may even be worth getting a second opinion, have you done diagnostic testing where the give you the huge questionnaire and then diagnose your illness from your answers, it may help to pinpoint whether you are manic depressive, depressive only or partly psychotic etc. For a doctor to diagnose you are not manic depressive when you are having mood swings seems incompetent to me, I would look for a new doctor.

 

[sun rise]

@Debater Slayer After reading your two posts and all the comments, I'm not really sure what would be helpful. Clearly you see that you have something going on that needs to be addressed and you've tried a lot of different people to try to address the issue.

I never used it, but I do have a psychological degree so I put on that hat and started thinking of what I would want to work on if you came to me.

I would want to slow down and carefully look at what has gone on before trying to move forward. Maybe that's already happened with you or maybe not.

But if not, I wonder if you should go back to basics and ask yourself these questions:

• Since you've seen a lot of different psychiatrists and psychologists, I wonder why. So I'd be asking about how you found each one, what you expected when you went to see the person, how that clinician reacted to you and what led you to decide this was not the right person for you.
  
• Then I'd be wondering about the problem starting with questions about drugs. What symptoms do you have and what has each of the drugs you've taken done for what is going on? I'd ignore the side-effects for this question but focus only on the benefits, if any.
• Then I'd be asking about what in your environment is helpful and not helpful. Are you putting yourself in the best possible environment given what is going on with you?
  
• One critical question is what support systems you have. Who you can talk to if you're in a down place. The more support you have the better.

 

[RESOLUTION]

There are no such thing as brain scans or blood test to diagnose mental illness, only theories about chemical imbalances, no testable evidence that I know of.

Actually, you will find studies using special equipment shows differences in the brains of those with mental illness and those without. Mental illness does not require scans or blood test to diagnose. Like most illnesses they show symptoms with mental illness it is about actions and behaviour whereas medical it shows by pain etc.

Unfortunately, they cannot make a prognosis with mental issues as the patients differ in many ways. Unlike broken arms, or other physical ailments from sickness they cannot see and therefore understand mental illness fully.

Studies did show those mentally ill with partners and faith, tend to make a quicker recovery when having episodes and
are usually are the ones who return home earlier because they have responded better.

I believe in many way mental illness to be far more crippling than a lot of physical diseases.

 

[Electra]

Thank you for sharing so openly, it is appreciated.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Update on the withdrawal from Lamictal and lithium: Strong diplopia today compared to before (when I rarely had it at all), but not terribly bad. I'm not sure which of the two meds is causing it, but hopefully it's just a short phase when my body is adjusting.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

*this post was moderated*

Vannakkam,

Yes, there is something terribly wrond with DS. He is a nice and brave person. This is totally unacceptable.

@Debater Slayer , keep on doing your best, you've come a long way and that's something to be proud of !

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Debater Slayer]

*this post was moderated*

May Ma'at forgive you for your unnecessary, preachy statements that promote personal bias in a thread about a different topic. I hope you can see the light and believe in her someday.

That aside, please keep Rule 8 in mind and remember that there are billions of people who have happy lives without sharing your beliefs, and there are others--like me--who don't have any problems with not believing but are dealing with other things that shouldn't be inaccurately attributed to lack of belief in a certain ancient book.

Thank you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Vannakkam,

Yes, there is something terribly wrond with DS. He is a nice and brave person. This is totally unacceptable.

@Debater Slayer , keep on doing your best, you've come a long way and that's something to be proud of !

Aum Namah Shivaya

Thanks! That's very kind of you to say.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Went to another psychiatrist today (yesterday, technically), and he said I have depression and put me on an SSRI. I was up for 13 hours on three hours of sleep all day, but I woke up a bit earlier after only two hours of sleep and with about as much alertness as when I have two or three cups of coffee in the space of an hour. I also have a headache.

Looks like this might not be one of the SSRIs that cause sedation, which I hope it isn't. I'm just waiting to see how my body adjusts to it.

 

[Groeneappel]

March 2016: I saw my fourth psychiatrist. I told her about my fears regarding the potential side effects of being on Zyprexa, so she prescribed three atypical antipsychotics in high doses. She promised I'd improve within a few months' time, so I told her I was still very worried, especially now that the doses were high. She said I'd stop them upon improving and take a regular injection instead to keep my condition stable—an injection of an antipsychotic. I told her outright that I wasn't going to follow the prescription and that I wasn't willing to put myself at that risk. She said, "As you wish, but my advice to you is to follow the prescription and not let your condition deteriorate."

It is worth mentioning that not a single one of the psychiatrists I've seen told me about any of the side effects of any of the meds I've taken, except for the weight gain and increased appetite Zyprexa can cause—and the psychiatrist told me about that only because I asked him if Zyprexa could affect me as badly as Risperdal did. Otherwise he told me to "not read about the side effects and worry [myself]. Just listen to professional advice."

No mentions of the relatively high incidence of extrapyramidal symptoms, including potentially disabling ones, that some antipsychotics have, nor the significant risks clozapine sometimes puts patients at. (Clozapine was one of the three antipsychotics prescribed to me by the doctor I saw in March 2016, and she didn't warn me about any of its side effects either.)

I still insisted on being taken off Zyprexa, so I asked a relative to talk to my third psychiatrist about directions for tapering off, since she had been seeing him for years and he was more open to talking with her than a patient who had only seen him twice. The relative told him about the meds I was taking (he didn't know she was talking about me), and he gave her the directions. I started the process of tapering off in March 2016 and finished it in April 2016, after being on antipsychotics for seven months on end.

The gradual withdrawal from antipsychotics was more difficult than quitting SSRIs cold turkey, which I suspect could have been both due to the fact that I had been on antipsychotics for longer and also the fact that they're very potent substances in general. Feelings of hopelessness, lack of energy and motivation, inability to concentrate, depression, persistent suicidal ideation, and recurring insomnia were present throughout the withdrawal and for several months after I had taken my last pill (except for the insomnia, which only took about a week to calm down and then eventually go away since the very first of the tapering process).

At some point I considered going back to the full dose of Zyprexa because of how difficult withdrawal was, but every time the fear of the potential side effects and the desire to avoid the ones I had actually experienced held me back. Managing through the withdrawal and finally having my system be free of antipsychotics was an extremely rewarding and relieving feeling, though, and it was worth what I experienced to get to that point. It has also changed my outlook in that it has made me thankful and appreciative of the fact that I didn't have to live on this class of meds for my whole life, something that I hadn't even thought about before and had taken for granted.

Between the sedative and mentally and physically draining side effects I was experiencing on Risperdal and then Zyprexa, I could barely study at all, and I sometimes had trouble waking up for university. I failed the whole semester in which I was on said meds, and then I eventually switched majors. Although the antipsychotics weren't the only reason I failed the semester (life in general was particularly rough and turbulent at the time, and to top it all off, I disliked my then-major and found most of the subjects I had to study quite tedious), their side effects were the primary cause of my inability to focus on studying nearly as much as I needed to.

To be continued in the next post (although possibly later, since I have to go offline for a bit now).

Hello Debater slayer,

I see you have tried clozapine. Could you tell me.more about your experience with clozapine? Did it help despite suffering from side effects?

Hope you will respond!