Life Without The Apple Incident

[Skwim]

Atheists are usually wrong. Atheist science holds the whole thing to be ridiculous. Creation science takes it a gospel.

Harrumph! Atheist science is always right about those things it finds to be true, whereas creation science finds its truths where they're obligated to be right.

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[Akivah]

I fail to see the relevance here. Please reread my post.

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From what I read, you're trying to blame G-d for A&E's choices. I asked you if you thought A&E as portrayed in the story bore any personal responsibility for their own choices.

 

[Skwim]

From what I read, you're trying to blame G-d for A&E's choices. I asked you if you thought A&E as portrayed in the story bore any personal responsibility for their own choices.

As story goes, of course they do. But to conclude that A&E were responsible for saddling the world with pain and suffering because they were duped by a snake is absurd. So, keeping in mind that the real reason for the pain and suffering in the world doesn't lie with A&E, but elsewhere, and the only reasonable conclusion is that it rests with god. No other entity has such ultimate power. This being the case, it wouldn't be political to present the world with such a despicable god, so the apple story was constructed so as to shift responsibility. A&E became scapegoats. As to who was responsible for this ploy comes down to two possibilities: god or man.

If you believe the Genesis account is the word of god then he's responsible for having shifted the blame off himself and onto A&E. And so it sits: A&E were responsible because god says so. SO THE TRUE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ASSIGNING THE BLAME IS GOD'S

If you believe Genesis account was concocted by man, then he's responsible for shifting the blame off of god and onto A&E. And so it sits: A&E were responsible because man didn't want god to look like the bad guy. SO THE TRUE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ASSIGNING THE BLAME IS MAN'S
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As I said, from what I can see, the story only serves to excuse god from saddling mankind with all the pain and suffering we have to endure.

And, ya got your choice as to who was the culprit.

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[Akivah]

As story goes, of course they do. But to conclude that A&E were responsible for saddling the world with pain and suffering because they were duped by a snake is absurd.

I agree. A&E were unable to change G-d's creation.

So, keeping in mind that the real reason for the pain and suffering in the world doesn't lie with A&E, but elsewhere, and the only reasonable conclusion is that it rests with god. No other entity has such ultimate power.

That makes sense.

The rest of your post is fixated on the pain and suffering that we endure, but ignores the joy, wonder, discovery that humankind can also make. We experience both positive and negative outcomes and emotions, which are usually tied to our choices.

As I said, from what I can see, the story only serves to excuse god from saddling mankind with all the pain and suffering we have to endure.

I've seen many books and articles devoted to analyzing the A&E story, giving different meanings about it. IMO, it is very limiting to believe the story only has one meaning.

 

[Nakosis]

What would our life be like today, 6,021 years since the creation of Adam & Eve, if they never "fell"?

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Overpopulation?
No wars?
No competitive spirit?
No hate?
No comparative love?
Nowhere to necessarily go on Sunday mornings?​

Your reckoning _____________________________________________________.

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No self awareness.

We be like the other animals supposedly. Going about our business without any concept of morals. Probably very little inventiveness. We maybe never made it out of the stone age. Or I guess the Eden age. Run around naked, eating fruit off the trees like a hairless ape.

 

[Skwim]

No self awareness.

We be like the other animals supposedly. Going about our business without any concept of morals. Probably very little inventiveness. We maybe never made it out of the stone age. Or I guess the Eden age. Run around naked, eating fruit off the trees like a hairless ape.

All of which implies this is what god had intended for us in the first place when he created A&E. So how bad could it be?

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[Nakosis]

All of which implies this is what god had intended for us in the first place when he created A&E. So how bad could it be?

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Shrug, no ability to question whether life should be anything other than it is. I doubt good and bad would be conceptualized.

I often wonder about the origins of the story. It seems an explanation for the development of human self awareness. Fairly deep introspective thinking for somebody way back when.

 

[Nakosis]

IMO, there was no fall. They did exactly as they were supposed to. However, for purposes of this thread, if A&E didn't leave Eden, then nothing would have been invented, discovered, or made by humankind.

I happen to agree. Man in the garden was wild, primitive, running around naked. It seems the story of man becoming civilized. Gaining an awareness of morality, modesty etc...

Man questioned the authority of God. Seeing himself equal to God in being able to choose for himself his fate. Knowing of death and questioning it.

Questioning his current state of existence and seeking to improve it. Forever barring him from the freedom of the wildman's existence.

Not that God punishes man for his choice but in choosing our fate we also are accountable for our bad choices. We suffer the consequences of those choices, good or bad.

It's not a fallen state, maybe that's just a Christian narrative?

It a state of choosing our own destiny. I think that fits to the rest of the Bible. God didn't force us into this state. It a choice Adam made.

Man wants to determine his own destiny. Man is not omniscient so lots of mistakes. God steps out of the way. A few find a way to connect to God and offer guidelines to correct choices. However God never directly interferes, except that little flood thing.

 

[Nakosis]

All of which implies this is what god had intended for us in the first place when he created A&E. So how bad could it be?

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It's not what God wanted. Man thought he could do better making his own choices and not depending on God for everything.

You could remain at home with your parents and let them provide for your needs or decide to strike out on your own. Accept both the risks and rewards that come with that choice.

The Bible is in a way a psychology of life.

 

[Skwim]

It's not what God wanted.

A&E not going against his wishes? Sure it is. Or do you think he created A&E so they would disobey him and he would have good reason to saddle humanity with sin and suffering?

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[Nakosis]

A&E not going against his wishes? Sure it is. Or do you think he created A&E so they would disobey him and he would have good reason to saddle humanity with sin and suffering?

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I meant it wasn't a choice forced on Adam by God. It's not even forced on you. You could go out running about naked in the forest doing whatever you felt was appropriate at the moment.

Though probably wouldn't be seeing this behavior as appropriate. Kind of purposely lose all inhibitions if that were possible.

Maybe that's not a real choice, but I see the story as an explanation of why we have inhibitions in the first place.

No self consciousness, no inhibitions...

Man decided to change the world created by "God" to his own purpose, thereby defying God. In a way making himself equal to God. Man looked at the world and said this world as created by God is not good. We can do better.

 

[Skwim]

I meant it wasn't a choice forced on Adam by God. It's not even forced on you.

Well, the outcome of Adam's choice has certainly been forced on me, and everyone else. Ain't that nice.

And if you regard god as most Christians do; an omnipotent and omniscient being, then before god even created Adam he knew what Adam would do, and that he (god) would be investing all those who followed with sin and suffering. Ain't that nice: god purposely creates defective creatures in order to . . . . . . . what? My guess is to entertain him, and in their blind flurry of despair be convinced to worship him.

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[Nakosis]

Well, the outcome of Adam's choice has certainly been forced on me, and everyone else. Ain't that nice.

And if you regard god as most Christians do; an omnipotent and omniscient being, then before god even created Adam he knew what Adam would do, and that he (god) would be investing all those who followed with sin and suffering. Ain't that nice: god purposely creates defective creatures in order to . . . . . . . what? My guess is to entertain him, and in their blind flurry of despair be convinced to worship him.
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Yes, self consciousness is forced on you.

What do Christians know. This story existed long before Christians developed their theology around it.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, self consciousness is forced on you.

???

What do Christians know.

They know what they assert. And many assert that the A & E & apple story is true. (The following bar chart includes all Americans, not just Christians.)

source​

This story existed long before Christians developed their theology around it.

So what?

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