Logic VS, Faith

[joe1776]

Try definintion 2b1: firm belief in something for which there is no proof

I have no idea where you got your definition, but it's not from the M-W website.

Definition of FAITH

The definition you ask me to accept is fine with me. It supports my definition that faith is a belief without evidence. It does not support your assertion that "Belief in anything requires faith."

Regarding claims of significant importance, my mind requires proof (evidence) in order to believe.

 

[Audie]

You are reading these stories as if they were historical fact. Why? They are obviously religious myths, and parables; full of symbolism and metaphor, to help people better understand and deal with the great mysteries of life.

Faith isn't pretending that myths are facts. Or that hopes are certainties. Faith is choosing to trust that what we hope to be true, will turn out to be true, when we act on it. Faith is how we move forward in the face of the unknown. And this is not illogical at all.

Whats obvious is that it was only recently
that Bible " facts " like the flood were recognized to be fiction, by educated people at least.

So what to do?

Pick and choose which tall tales are fact and which are not?

Say its all bs and walk away?

Go with cognitive dissonance?

No! Realize the " obvious" that they are myths
and that it was always symbolism! To help
with understanding even though nobody gets it even yet!

No wonder Christians value " faith" so¡

 

[Eyes to See]

Belief in any religion requires faith. My problem has always been that so much of religion is not logical. The different miracles for example defy logic. The Virgin Birth for example.
The Four Gospels Record 37 Miracles. As A Christian Do You Believe Them?

Scripture tells us to use your power of reason to worship God:

"Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason."-Romans 12:1.

It also tells us that faith is not blind, but is based on realities that can be demonstrated of things that are not seen:

"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."-Hebrews 11:1.

A miracle is something that is beyond our understanding. God created the universe and all things in it. He and his angels do things that are ordinary to them that are miraculous to us.

 

[Audie]

Scripture tells us to use your power of reason to worship God:

"Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason."-Romans 12:1.

It also tells us that faith is not blind, but is based on realities that can be demonstrated of things that are not seen:

"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."-Hebrews 11:1.

A miracle is something that is beyond our understanding. God created the universe and all things in it. He and his angels do things that are ordinary to them that are miraculous to us.

Of COURSE it says faith is not blind!
What else?
.....things unseen......
Nothing blind there.

ETA. wait a sec. Where does it actually say faith ain't blind?

 

[dybmh]

You are reading these stories as if they were historical fact. Why? They are obviously religious myths, and parables; full of symbolism and metaphor, to help people better understand and deal with the great mysteries of life.

What is the symbolism and metaphor behind the stories about banishing demons? How do they help a person to better understand the great mysteries of life?

 

[PureX]

Whats obvious is that it was only recently
that Bible " facts " like the flood were recognized to be fiction, by educated people at least.

So what to do?

Pick and choose which tall tales are fact and which are not?

Say its all bs and walk away?

Go with cognitive dissonance?

No! Realize the " obvious" that they are myths
and that it was always symbolism! To help
with understanding even though nobody gets it even yet!

No wonder Christians value " faith" so¡

Most mythological stories began with real people and events. But it wasn't the real people and events that warranted mythical status. It was what their stories represented to subsequent generations that turned them into myths. As each time the story was told, and retold, it was 'altered and embellished' to better convey the significant ideals that the story has come to represent to the culture that mythologized it.

Even in our own culture myths about George Washington never telling a lie, and throwing a dollar coin a mile across the Delaware River developed in just a few hundred years. These things aren't really taken as fact by most people, then or now. It's just human nature to embellish the facts for the sake of significant meaning. And sometimes these become classic cultural myths that can last for centuries. Especially is a religion gets hold of it!

 

[Vee]

Belief in any religion requires faith. My problem has always been that so much of religion is not logical. The different miracles for example defy logic. The Virgin Birth for example.
The Four Gospels Record 37 Miracles. As A Christian Do You Believe Them?

Logic and faith have nothing to do with each other. When I think about the Bible's accounts of speaking snakes, a floating ark turning into a gigantic zoo and people coming back from the dead, among other things, I promise you I sometimes wonder if I'm completely insane to believe these things. And yet I do. I can't explain my faith with logic any further than I believe there is an all powerful God who can make things we don't understand happen.
The definition of faith is precisely "the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen" (Heb. 11:1)

 

[Eyes to See]

Faith is based on realities that are not seen, things that have been proved and are 100% reliable. An example, you have faith the sun is going to rise in the morning. Why is this? Because it has a proven track record of doing so in the past. The sun is there, was there before you were born, and will be there after you are gone.

But have you seen the sun rise tomorrow? Have you seen tomorrow come? Whether you are here tomorrow or not to see it, the sun is going to rise. You can have the assurance of that.

And just as surely as you can have faith that the sun will rise in the sky tomorrow you can have trust in the word of God. All that he says comes true. The visible creation is the evident demonstration of the invisible God who brought it into existence, even his eternal power and Godship.

The things we see with the eyes, these are the things that are ephemeral, fleeting, passing away, mere unrealities. While what is unseen is real and everlasting. Spiritual eyes to see perceive these truths. The fleshly eyes that only perceive what is in front of them have not the foresight to see into these everlasting realities.

 

[PureX]

What is the symbolism and metaphor behind the stories about banishing demons? How do they help a person to better understand the great mysteries of life?

These things are complicated and specific. Interpreting a myth, or any form of artifice, requires a lot of cultural knowledge and usually a lot of study.

If you're interested in mythology, and how it works, check out a book or the TV series by Joseph Campbell called "The Power of Myth". It not only explains how myths get created, and why they last so long, but it also interprets many of the common myths in the world, today.

 

[Eyes to See]

Logic and faith have nothing to do with each other. When I think about the Bible's accounts of speaking snakes, a floating ark turning into a gigantic zoo and people coming back from the dead, among other things, I promise you I sometimes wonder if I'm completely insane to believe these things. And yet I do. I can't explain my faith with logic any further than I believe there is an all powerful God who can make things we don't understand happen.
The definition of faith is precisely "the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen" (Heb. 11:1)

Faith and logic are intertwined. You cannot have faith without using logic. A servant of Jehovah doesn't wonder if they are insane. They don't hope they have the truth. Abraham was declared righteous by his faith, showing by his works that he had faith that Jehovah could raise his child from the dead, and in an illustrative way showed what Jehovah would do with his own son, Jesus Christ, when he as good as offered up his son when told to do so.

 

[Audie]

Most mythological stories began with real people and events. But it wasn't the real people and events that warranted mythical status. It was what their stories represented to subsequent generations that turned them into myths. As each time the story was told, and retold, it was 'altered and embellished' to better convey the significant ideals that the story has come to represent to the culture that mythologized it.

Even in our own culture myths about George Washington never telling a lie, and throwing a dollar coin a mile across the Delaware River developed in just a few hundred years. These things aren't really taken as fact by most people, then or now. It's just human nature to embellish the facts for the sake of significant meaning. And sometimes these become classic cultural myths that can last for centuries. Especially is a religion gets hold of it!

Sure, I think most would say that's right.

But where your earlier assessment seemed weak to me was the thing where using symbolism made understanding easier.

First versus as you pointed out as did I,
they did specifically did not start as fdirected fiction,
And
Second, they generally do the opposite of aid understanding. See "flood", divers threads, RF.

 

[Audie]

Faith and logic are intertwined. You cannot have faith without using logic. A servant of Jehovah is doesn't wonder if they are insane. They don't hope they have the truth. Abraham was declared righteous by his faith, showing by his works that he had faith that Jehovah could raise his child from the dead, and in an illustrative way showed what Jehovah would do with his own son, Jesus Christ, when he as good as offered up his son when told to do so.

As much zero logic faith as we see here, No.

Are you a flood believer?

 

[Vee]

Faith and logic are intertwined. You cannot have faith without using logic. A servant of Jehovah doesn't wonder if they are insane. They don't hope they have the truth. Abraham was declared righteous by his faith, showing by his works that he had faith that Jehovah could raise his child from the dead, and in an illustrative way showed what Jehovah would do with his own son, Jesus Christ, when he as good as offered up his son when told to do so.

I don't think you understood the OP or my reply to his question.

 

[PureX]

Sure, I think most would say that's right.

But where your earlier assessment seemed weak to me was the thing where using symbolism made understanding easier.

First versus as you pointed out as did I,
they did specifically did not start as fdirected fiction,
And
Second, they generally do the opposite of aid understanding. See "flood", divers threads, RF.

It's difficult for humans, now days, to grasp living in a culture where "history" lasted for only a couple generations and in a limited geographical area, and "factual literature" wasn't even a thing, yet. Stories were not presented to people as "biography", or as "history" or as "news", or as "fiction". Stories were just stories. They were heard, and very rarely 'read', as stories, only. And they were understood subjectively by the recipient for the significance they found of the content. No 'weight' was being added to it's significance by virtue of the story's 'factuality', or by it's 'historocity', or by it's "biographical accuracy" because these conceptualizations of literature didn't exist, yet. Stories were just stories. To be delivered and received subjectively, person to person. And passed on in the same way.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The definition you ask me to accept is fine with me. It supports my definition that faith is a belief without evidence. It does not support your assertion that "Belief in anything requires faith."

Regarding claims of significant importance, my mind requires proof (evidence) in order to believe.

If you have evidence, you have knowledge, not belief.

 

[Eyes to See]

I don't think you understood the OP or my reply to his question.

You said: "Logic and faith have nothing to do with each other."

Yet a Christian is told to use their power of reason when serving Jehovah. That is, it is logical:

"Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason."-Romans 12:1.

You said: "I can't explain my faith with logic."

Yet a Christian's faith is based on logic and can be explained logically. In fact a servant of God is told:

"But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have."-1 Peter 3:15.

To say that faith is not based on logic is to deny what scripture says. The Bible itself says that faith is based on things that are real and provable. It is called faith because it is based on things that are not seen:


"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."-Hebrews 11:1.

Do you believe the wind exists? You cannot see it. Is your belief in the wind not based on logic?

Do you believe in gravity. You cannot see gravity. Is your belief in gravity not based on logic?

Your eyes cannot see radio waves. Do you believe they exist? Or is your belief not based on logic?

To say that belief in God is not based on logic, means you are not using your power of reason. That is blind. It is not based on evidence. It is just as all the other religious people who believe in their false gods, thus you have no basis for your faith.

A Jehovah's Witness is one because they have proof of God's existence. They can see the realities and have proofs of it, although they are not seen. Because if they were seen, then it would not be faith any longer. And when they are seen there is no longer hope. For you do not hope for what you see, but hope for what you do not see. So hope and faith are intertwined and you cannot have one without the other. But they are all based on proofs of the realities that exist and will be.

 

[MikeF]

Belief in anything requires faith.

This I whole-heartedly disagree with. You are conflating faith with reasoned expectation based on experience. We don't have faith the sun will rise. We don't have faith that gravity will keep working. When dealing with a new experience in which we don't know what to expect, depending on potential risk, there is some amount of fear and apprehension involved. The term faith connotes blind faith. The belief in something despite evidence to the contrary. Blind faith is a bad thing. Reasoned expectation base on experience is how we operate in our daily lives. Yes, sometimes we have to take risks in new situations, at which point we are simply guessing.

This all brings the old adage to mind:

Fool me once, shame on you;
Fool me twice, shame on me.

The use of the term faith gives one permission to believe the illusion despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[MikeF]

You are reading these stories as if they were historical fact. Why? They are obviously religious myths, and parables; full of symbolism and metaphor, to help people better understand and deal with the great mysteries of life.

Faith isn't pretending that myths are facts. Or that hopes are certainties. Faith is choosing to trust that what we hope to be true, will turn out to be true, when we act on it. Faith is how we move forward in the face of the unknown. And this is not illogical at all.

Courage is how we move forward in the face of the unknown. Faith allows us to be manipulated.

 

[PureX]

Courage is how we move forward in the face of the unknown. Faith allows us to be manipulated.

Ignorance allows us to be manipulated. And when our knowledge runs out, we all become ignorant. Faith is how we deal with this ignorance. Faith is making the choice to trust in our hopes, and to act on that trust. And yes, this does take courage. Faith is a courageous act. But faith is more than just a courage act. It's also hopeful, and optimistic, and honest.

 

[SalixIncendium]

This I whole-heartedly disagree with. You are conflating faith with reasoned expectation based on experience. We don't have faith the sun will rise. We don't have faith that gravity will keep working. When dealing with a new experience in which we don't know what to expect, depending on potential risk, there is some amount of fear and apprehension involved. The term faith connotes blind faith. The belief in something despite evidence to the contrary. Blind faith is a bad thing. Reasoned expectation base on experience is how we operate in our daily lives. Yes, sometimes we have to take risks in new situations. Hence the old addage:

Fool me once, shame on you;
Fool me twice, shame on me.

You're conflating belief and knowledge just as @joe1776 was.