Logical deduction (religion, the PoE)

[Trailblazer]

And supposedly your God created all of us. Sheesh He fails many before they "come of age".

God fails nobody ever.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Correct.

God did not create humanity with any desires. We accumulate desires as we go through life.

"Tabula rasa" has been debunked, but regardless: anything that influences us "as we go through life" was - according to you - ultimately shaped by God.

We were all created in God's image so we are all have the potential to be good but since humans have free will some people choose evil over good.

... which implies that there's something other than free will causing the evil.

I agree.

So if God had chosen not to put the desire to murder into, say, a serial killer, their free will would be just as intact as mine is... and their victims wouldn't have been killed.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Tabula rasa" has been debunked, but regardless: anything that influences us "as we go through life" was - according to you - ultimately shaped by God.

Nothing that influences us is shaped by God, it is shaped by our experiences in life. Our experiences in life are caused by our choices and other things that happen to us that we do not choose.

... which implies that there's something other than free will causing the evil.

The reason we have the propensity to evil acts is because we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, and we can choose to act according to either nature. All imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.

In sum, we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature. If we choose to act according to our lower material nature we will do evil. If we choose to act according to our spiritual nature, we will do good actions.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.”​

Paris Talks, p. 60​

​

To read more: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN​

So if God had chosen not to put the desire to murder into, say, a serial killer, their free will would be just as intact as mine is... and their victims wouldn't have been killed.

God did not put the desire to murder into a serial killer. That desire came from the mind of the serial killer.
A serial killer had free will to choose and owing to nature and nurture he chose to murder.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nothing that influences us is shaped by God, it is shaped by our experiences in life.

So you've changed your mind? You don't think God created the universe any more?

Our experiences in life are caused by our choices and other things that happen to us that we do not choose.

... which all could ultimate be traced back to God, if God were to exist.

The reason we have the propensity to evil acts is because we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, and we can choose to act according to either nature. All imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.

So God created us with two natures, one of which has a tendency to evil?

In sum, we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature. If we choose to act according to our lower material nature we will do evil. If we choose to act according to our spiritual nature, we will do good actions.

But as I was getting at earlier, there are people for whom this isn't true. Someone can have no desire to murder, steal, or commit any other negative act you can think of.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.”​

Paris Talks, p. 60​

​

To read more: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN​

So God *is* responsible for evil, then.

God did not put the desire to murder into a serial killer. That desire came from the mind of the serial killer.

What you've told me implies that God did put the desire to murder - or at least the seed of it - in the mind of a serial killer.

A serial killer had free will to choose and owing to nature and nurture he chose to murder.

And yet you and I, whose natures didn't include a desire to murder, didn't have to make that choice but still had free will anyway.

... so that evil nature - and by extension, the God who gave us our evil nature - is ultimately responsible.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Trailblazer seems to have a problem explaining her monotheism to people because in monotheism God is not of the Universe yet interacts with it, so she needs to be careful with what she says, because ultimately everything she says is a contradiction. It is impossible to not be of the Universe and yet personally affect it in so many ways. Have you ever heard of anything outside the Universe affecting what is inside the Universe? Doesn’t happen. So we are restricted to two types of theisms as a result, both incompatible with the Baha’i Faith. A God that created the Universe then stopped its interaction with it, via Deism, or, what I believe, that God is reality, or pantheism/panentheism. Both of which her prophets in like successor Shoghi Effendi rejected. Monotheism is filled with contradictions just as Trailblazer and the Baha’i Faith is, the God of her religion impossible to have any actual interaction with their believers. It’s just easier for me to believe that God does it all, both the good and the bad, and each person is a tiny part of this web of reality we’ve helped create on Earth. There are no contradictions for those who prescribe a pantheist-style faith … even if we have to admit that God is responsible for all the evil in the world. That may be true, but on Earth there is so much more good than evil.

 

[an anarchist]

It’s just easier for me to believe that God does it all, both the good and the bad

Yesssss

 

[dybmh]

It’s just easier for me to believe that God does it all, both the good and the bad,

Yesssss

Agreed! But what does God do with it, my friends?

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Agreed! But what does God do with it, my friends?

Reality manifests and processes itself.

 

[an anarchist]

Agreed! But what does God do with it, my friends?

Well, what I call "God" (Infinite Intelligence) isn't the doer. I know I'm contradicting my "yesssss" but let me elaborate. Infinite Intelligence is used by the various doers of the universe. It's my assumption that there is a benevloent god (lowercase g) on the side of humanity. But, if not, we must become that god regardless. So, what does "God" do with it? In place of the word "God" for that question, I propose instead we ask "What does man do with it?"

 

[dybmh]

Reality manifests and processes itself.

How is that bad?

 

[dybmh]

Well, what I call "God" (Infinite Intelligence) isn't the doer. I know I'm contradicting my "yesssss" but let me elaborate. Infinite Intelligence is used by the various doers of the universe. It's my assumption that there is a benevloent god (lowercase g) on the side of humanity. But, if not, we must become that god regardless. So, what does "God" do with it? In place of the word "God" for that question, I propose instead we ask "What does man do with it?"

I agree with "what does man do with it?" But, I guess, I'm asking to proceed from the original premise, that this is THE PoE, which means that challenge is to understand if/how evil is consistent with a tri-omni God. If it is unknown if/how it is consistent, is the claim against this tri-omni god concept anything more than an argument from ignorance?

 

[an anarchist]

I agree with "what does man do with it?" But, I guess, I'm asking to proceed from the original premise, that this is THE PoE, which means that challenge is to understand if/how evil is consistent with a tri-omni God. If it is unknown if/how it is consistent, is the claim against this tri-omni god concept anything more than an argument from ignorance?

Yes, if I am literally wrong and the existence of evil is consistent with the existence of an omnimax God, color me ignorant!

But, to accept that one has to have faith in such an omnimax God in the first place. Which, more power to you. Just, you have to accept that you are ignorant on the matter and accept what seems logically impossible. Right?

 

[dybmh]

It can but does this always outweigh preventing or stopping it?

No, of course not. It happens once, or is happening, then it is stopped and prevented in the future. Then knowledge of the incident is used to predict and prevent other events that are similar but not identical. The underlying incentives for the harmful acts are studied and redirected towards doing good, or identified proactively and contained.

If so, then let's follow God's example - don't stop the child rape, don't vaccinate children, cancel hospitals, police and courts...

There is a double blessing for doing good for others, and a double curse for doing harm to others which would include standing by complicit. People are encouraged by God to intervene, and discouraged by God to ignore. We are talking about the PoE, but there are other parts to this puzzle that aren't being discussed.

Hopefully you saw the other post where I acknowledge that discussing this topic is difficult for several reasons. One of those reasons is that it's possible that heinous acts are somehow encouraged if I am not careful. I appreciate your reply because it reminds me to bring the idea of these blessings and curses at the beginning.

 

[dybmh]

Yes, if I am literally wrong and the existence of evil is consistent with the existence of an omnimax God, color me ignorant!

But, to accept that one has to have faith in such an omnimax God in the first place. Which, more power to you. Just, you have to accept that you are ignorant on the matter and accept what seems logically impossible. Right?

I embrace the ignorance. I skip right over knowledge in favor of understanding. Then I derive whatever I need on the fly like magic.

That said, it is not logically impossible. It's just very complicated, and few people have the patience or desire to work through all of it.

 

[an anarchist]

That said, it is not logically impossible. It's just very complicated, and few people have the patience or desire to work through all of it.

We are 235 replies in now... We are a strange bunch, huh?

I don't know if I'd see how it's logically possible with another couple hundred responses. haha try me tho

 

[dybmh]

We are 235 replies in now... We are a strange bunch, huh?

I don't know if I'd see how it's logically possible with another couple hundred responses. haha try me tho

How much of what I have said so far to others have you been reading?

 

[an anarchist]

How much of what I have said so far to others have you been reading?

Good point, haven't read everything. I'll see if I want to request further elaboration from you once I do :0

 

[dybmh]

Good point, haven't read everything. I'll see if I want to request further elaboration from you once I do :0

No prob. I didn't get through all of my argument. Not sure if I will.

I totally understand if you have moved on from this topic. I see you have several threads working. And if you're not into God, the one-and-only, it makes sense to set this aside.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you've changed your mind? You don't think God created the universe any more?

That is not what I was saying. Allow me to explain what I meant.

The material world was shaped by God.
Things in the material world influence us.
We pick and choose what we want to be influenced by.
God does not determine what influences us since God does not make our choices for us.
What we choose to be influenced by shapes our experiences in life.
God does not shape our experiences in life since God does not determine what we choose to be influenced by.
So my point stands. "Nothing that influences us is shaped by God, it is shaped by our experiences in life."

For example:
If I choose to be influenced by alcohol and become an alcoholic that shapes my experiences in life.
If I choose to be influenced by my religion and love God that shapes my experiences in life.

... which all could ultimate be traced back to God, if God were to exist.

In the sense that God created everything that exists it can be traced back to God.
That includes all our experiences in life -- both good and bad.

So God created us with two natures, one of which has a tendency to evil?

God did not create us with two natures. Since we were created in the image of God, we were created with only one nature - good.
I guess you never heard of "the fall" of man? Baha'is believe that man fell but not in the same way that Christians believe that.

As a Baha'i, I do not believe in the Adam and Eve were real people who existed. I do not believe that there was a literal garden with a tree and a snake and two people who ate a fruit from a tree. Rather, I interpret that part of Genesis as an allegory: 30: ADAM AND EVE

What I believe the allegory means is that humans inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born, he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin and do evil.

As the descendants of Adam, humans have one nature which can choose to do evil and one that can choose to do good.

But as I was getting at earlier, there are people for whom this isn't true. Someone can have no desire to murder, steal, or commit any other negative act you can think of.

That is because this person's thoughts are focused on his spiritual or higher nature, so he has no desire to act on his lower nature and murder, steal, or commit any other negative act.

So God *is* responsible for evil, then.

No, humans are responsible for evil and they commit evil acts when they choose not to follow the Laws of God.
The problem if evil has a remedy. If everyone followed the Laws of God there would be no evil in the world.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150​

What you've told me implies that God did put the desire to murder - or at least the seed of it - in the mind of a serial killer.

No, God did not put the desire to murder in anyone's mind. Man was created good but fell from grace (see above).

And yet you and I, whose natures didn't include a desire to murder, didn't have to make that choice but still had free will anyway.

All people have a lower nature thus the propensity to sin but only some people act on it. Owing to our inherited dispositions and life experiences (nature and nurture) you and I do not have a desire to murder. Owing to his/her inherited dispositions and life experiences (nature and nurture) a murderer has a desire to murder.

... so that evil nature - and by extension, the God who gave us our evil nature - is ultimately responsible.

God did not give us an evil nature. God created us good (see above).

 

[Trailblazer]

That is incorrect. The law per se doesn't require moral responsibility to establish legal accountability. A very simple example: A company might be held legally accountable and yet have no moral responsibility. The law may or may not incorporate aspects of moral responsibility but it is not required to.

For criminal acts such as murder and rape moral responsibility and legal accountability go hand in hand.

You said it is not: "God allows suffering but God does not enable suffering".

God enables or allows suffering but so what?

Ah, yes, I did miss that point.
Then my reply is: If God has the desire/will for humans to attain perfection, how wouldn't the best method to attain perfection be the one that is the fastest and most cost effective?

If God has the desire/will for humans to attain perfection, why would the best method to attain perfection be the one that is the fastest and most cost effective?

That doesn't follow. If that same gain can be achieved by some other way, other than pain, then it follows that such gain doesn't necessitate pain.

That same gain cannot be achieved by some other way, other than pain, so it follows that such gain necessitates pain.

Do you mean to say there are certain gains that necessarily require pain?

Yes, for example, if one is training to be an athlete (gain) then a certain amount of physical pain is necessary to reach that goal.
Another example is a person who wants to become a physician (gain). A certain amount of pain is involved in earning a medical degree.

Ok. But how do you figure what is beneficial? Let me provide you my answer so you understand what I am talking about: Beneficial is that which increases well-being, meaning leading to a happier life overall. Now, it is your turn: How do you figure if something is beneficial?

What is most beneficial is whatever helps us fulfill the purpose of our existence, which I believe is to know and love God. Other things that are beneficial are taking care of our mental and physical health, having healthy interpersonal relationships, getting married and raising a family (if we choose to do that), getting an education, doing gainful work we enjoy, engaging in enjoyable activities. All these increase our well-being.

Sure. A method to cure diseases is more benevolent than some other if it inflicts less harm than the other. Method 1 involves inflicting no harm, Method 2 involves inflicting harm. Therefore, Method 1 is more benevolent. An omnibenevolent being would always choose the most benevolent method if possible and therefore never choose method 2. What part do you disagree with if any?

The part I disagree with is that an omnibenevolent God would choose either method, since God is not responsible for curing diseases.
Humans are responsible for curing diseases.