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Logos is Dabar

Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were created through the Word, and without the Word nothing was created that has been created.

G3056 - logos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)
a word, uttered by a living voice
what someone has said
the act of speaking, speech

Psalms 33:6-9
Through the Word of Yahweh were the heavens created, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke, and it was.

H1697 - dāḇār - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)
speech, word, speaking

Genesis 1:3
And God spoke: Let there be light! And it was light.


Isn't it obvious that the Word of God is the spoken word of God? Then what makes some think that the Word of God is another being besides God?
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Interesting fact -- in Gen 1:3, the Hebrew text does not use any word related to d-b-r. The word used for God's speaking there is "vayomer." This is from the a-m-r root meaning "say." The first use of the 3 letter root d-b-r related to speech is in Gen 8:15, when God speaks to Noach.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
rosends said:
Interesting fact -- in Gen 1:3, the Hebrew text does not use any word related to d-b-r. The word used for God's speaking there is "vayomer." This is from the a-m-r root meaning "say." The first use of the 3 letter root d-b-r related to speech is in Gen 8:15, when God speaks to Noach.
Click to expand...
The vayomer is the dabar. The say(vayomer) is the word(dabar).

And God said (vayomer):
Let there be light. (dabar)
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Teritos said:
The vayomer is the dabar. The say(vayomer) is the word(dabar).

And God said (vayomer):
Let there be light. (dabar)
Click to expand...
But vayomer (and he said) is an amirah (saying). A vayedaber (and he spoke) would be a "dibrah" or "dvar" - statement (cf Gen 12:17). Also, "word" is milah (cf Psalms 139:4).
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Teritos said:
@rosends @dybmh
God said(amar): Let there be light(dabar)

If I speak, the spoken is the Word(dabar). That's easy to understand.
Click to expand...
But then you can pick any word that represents speech and claim it is identical. But the fact is, there are different words for different purposes. Simply equating them is an error. If you speak, the word is milah.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
rosends said:
But then you can pick any word that represents speech and claim it is identical. But the fact is, there are different words for different purposes. Simply equating them is an error. If you speak, the word is milah.
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Why are you bringing confusion into this? The word dabar simply means "what someone says" and the Lexicon confirms this. That was the goal of my thread.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Teritos said:
Why are you bringing confusion into this? The word dabar simply means "what someone says" and the Lexicon confirms this. That was the goal of my thread.
Click to expand...
I am presenting clarification, not confusion. You are confusing a saying said through an a-m-r verb with a statement made through a d-b-r root.

In English, if I write, "Then the wizard incanted" would you then say that the incantation was the wizard's "statement"? Different words are used to make different points.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
rosends said:
I am presenting clarification, not confusion. You are confusing a saying said through an a-m-r verb with a statement made through a d-b-r root.

In English, if I write, "Then the wizard incanted" would you then say that the incantation was the wizard's "statement"? Different words are used to make different points.
Click to expand...
When I speak(amar) then what comes out of my mouth is a word(dabar). The dabar comes through the amar. The word comes through the speaking.

Psalms 33:6-9
Through the Word(dabar) of Yahweh were the heavens created, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke(amar), and it was.

Genesis 1:3
And God spoke(amar): Let there be light!(dabar)
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Teritos said:
When I speak(amar) then what comes out of my mouth is a word(dabar). The dabar comes through the amar. The word comes through the speaking.

Psalms 33:6-9
Through the Word(dabar) of Yahweh were the heavens created, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke(amar), and it was.

Genesis 1:3
And God spoke(amar): Let there be light!(dabar)
Click to expand...
The statement comes through the speaking. If you want to use the verse from Psalms then you need to stick with dvar's being the statement, not the word (milah).

You also might want to check the Malbim there who says that the statements (d'var) are laws.
 
Left Coast

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Teritos said:
When I speak(amar) then what comes out of my mouth is a word(dabar). The dabar comes through the amar. The word comes through the speaking.

Psalms 33:6-9
Through the Word(dabar) of Yahweh were the heavens created, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke(amar), and it was.

Genesis 1:3
And God spoke(amar): Let there be light!(dabar)
Click to expand...

Do you speak Hebrew? Maybe you should defer to the understanding of people who actually do when discussing the Hebrew text. That would be wise, right?
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Teritos said:
So what?
Word or word, doesn't make a difference. The definition of the word "word" is important.
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Word with a capital W usually means that Word = God. That's why I asked. The word "word/logos" in a (Christian) religious has a double meaning. I think it's important to consider that, especially if the W is capitalized in a thread where John 1 is quoted in the OP.
 
RabbiO

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Left Coast said:
Do you speak Hebrew? Maybe you should defer to the understanding of people who actually do when discussing the Hebrew text. That would be wise, right?
Click to expand...
Walter Kerr, the drama critic, is the first known user of the phrase “delusions of adequacy”. I salute your use of kinder, gentler descriptive language in your response while still managing to make your point.

I aspire to that, but sometimes I have to confess I slip up and respond in a way that makes a needed point, but is more meanspirited. You know, something like “You should quit while you’re still behind.”
 
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