• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Logos, Mythos & Modern Religiosity

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
In the latest Dawkins thread, I said that mythos is 'the alphabet' of mythology, now I want to explain that. Logos and mythos were the Greek names for the two primary modes of human thought. To define my terms, allow me to borrow the words of Karen Armstrong.

From The Case For God: What Religion Really Means, Introduction:
In most pre-modern cultures, there were two recognized methods of thinking, speaking, and acquiring knowledge. The Greeks called the mythos and logos. Both were essential and neither was considered superior to the other; they were not in conflict but complementary. Each had its own sphere of competence and it was considered unwise to mix the two. Logos ('reason') was the pragmatic mode of thought that enabled people to function effectively int he world. It had, therefore, to correspond accurately to external reality. People have always needed logos to make an efficient weapon, organize their societies or plan an expedition. Logos was forward-looking, continually on the lookout for new ways of controlling the environment, improving old insights or inventing something fresh. Logos was essential to the survival of our species. But it had its limitations: it could not assuage human grief or find ultimate meaning in life's struggles. For that, people turned to mythos or 'myth."

Today we live in a society of logos and myth has fallen into disrepute. In popular parlance, a 'myth' is something that is not true. But in the past, myth was not self-indulgent fantasy; rather, like logos, it helped people to live creatively in our confusing world, though in a different way.... When a myth described heroes threading their way through labyrinths... these were not understood as primarily factual stories. They were designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche, which are difficult to access but which profoundly influence our thought and behavior. People had to enter the warren of their own minds and fight their personal demons. When Freud and Jung began to chart their scientific search for the soul, they instinctively turned to these ancient myths. A myth was never intended as an accurate account of a historical event; it was something that had in some sense happened once but that also happens all the time.
Armstrong hits the nail on the head: mythos has been forgotten. Logos dominates, and we've lost a priceless birthright. Worse, we've kept its handmaidens, its vehicles. We still tell the stories... but we no longer know what they mean.

Thoughts?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
My question is what makes mythos a method of gathering accurate information?
QED. :)

It's NOT. Further, it's not meant to be. That's what logos is for. Mythos is not rationality, but the polar opposite: the language of our messy, irrational selves. It's the part of us that understands music and, yes - story. It delights in symbolism and speaks in poetry. The best, though still inadequate, modern approximation to mythos is 'right-brain thinking.'

Mythos is under no circumstances an acceptable - even functional - substitute for logos.... But the reverse is true as well. Without logos, we simply cannot function in the world... without mythos, we are just as ill-equipped to understand ourselves.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
QED. :)

It's NOT. Further, it's not meant to be. That's what logos is for. Mythos is not rationality, but the polar opposite: the language of our messy, irrational selves. It's the part of us that understands music and, yes - story. It delights in symbolism and speaks in poetry. The best, though still inadequate, modern approximation to mythos is 'right-brain thinking.'

Mythos is under no circumstances an acceptable - even functional - substitute for logos.... But the reverse is true as well. Without logos, we simply cannot function in the world... without mythos, we are just as ill-equipped to understand ourselves.

So your argument for the requirement of mythos is because it makes people feel good?

I have no real problem with that as long as it doesn't interfere (as it so often does) with the gathering of usable knowledge.

It promotes misunderstanding of logos.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
That's because the need for mythos is still there.

Right, and people still have an interest in such things because they still get the same rewarding experience from them. If anything, people understand mythos more now, because there are more people who have the luxury of time to think about and focus on such things. For most of history, most people were too busy struggling to eek out a bare existence to have the luxury to ponder the meaning of existence and "mythos." I understand many people like to put ancient people on some type of pedestal as though they all had some superior type of insight and wisdom, but this seems more of a reaction against one's own time and culture, than a serious analysis of ancient peoples.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
In the latest Dawkins thread, I said that mythos is 'the alphabet' of mythology, now I want to explain that. Logos and mythos were the Greek names for the two primary modes of human thought. To define my terms, allow me to borrow the words of Karen Armstrong.

From The Case For God: What Religion Really Means, Introduction:
In most pre-modern cultures, there were two recognized methods of thinking, speaking, and acquiring knowledge. The Greeks called the mythos and logos. Both were essential and neither was considered superior to the other; they were not in conflict but complementary. Each had its own sphere of competence and it was considered unwise to mix the two. Logos ('reason') was the pragmatic mode of thought that enabled people to function effectively int he world. It had, therefore, to correspond accurately to external reality. People have always needed logos to make an efficient weapon, organize their societies or plan an expedition. Logos was forward-looking, continually on the lookout for new ways of controlling the environment, improving old insights or inventing something fresh. Logos was essential to the survival of our species. But it had its limitations: it could not assuage human grief or find ultimate meaning in life's struggles. For that, people turned to mythos or 'myth."

Today we live in a society of logos and myth has fallen into disrepute. In popular parlance, a 'myth' is something that is not true. But in the past, myth was not self-indulgent fantasy; rather, like logos, it helped people to live creatively in our confusing world, though in a different way.... When a myth described heroes threading their way through labyrinths... these were not understood as primarily factual stories. They were designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche, which are difficult to access but which profoundly influence our thought and behavior. People had to enter the warren of their own minds and fight their personal demons. When Freud and Jung began to chart their scientific search for the soul, they instinctively turned to these ancient myths. A myth was never intended as an accurate account of a historical event; it was something that had in some sense happened once but that also happens all the time.
Armstrong hits the nail on the head: mythos has been forgotten. Logos dominates, and we've lost a priceless birthright. Worse, we've kept its handmaidens, its vehicles. We still tell the stories... but we no longer know what they mean.

Thoughts?


I disagree that we've forgotten mythos. To quote a friend, the needs that created the mythologies we still use no longer exist. Instead we have different needs that we try to meet with ancient modes of myth. Clumsily put, what we need to do is adjust our mythos.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
We still tell the stories... but we no longer know what they mean.
We still tell the stories and now we tell new stories trying to get the same points across. We know what fiction is today and take relevance out of the stories but a lot of people don't realize that it was the same objective of myths of the past.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
So your argument for the requirement of mythos is because it makes people feel good?
No! Not at all. If I had to explain its necessity in a single sentence....

The requirement is that it empowers us to understand ourselves, and thus our place in the larger world.

I have no real problem with that as long as it doesn't interfere (as it so often does) with the gathering of usable knowledge.

It promotes misunderstanding of logos.
Aha! That error is precisely why we've abandoned it. The two do not interfere with one another at all. Rather, they work in tandem to create holistically functional humans. Each provides a vital map to strange and dangerous territory: logos the external world, mythos the internal.

But you seem to be conflating mythos with its expression, mythology. Mythology is only the... the symbol. Mythos is the capacity to understand symbolism.

By way of explanation, take a cross. To logos, a cross is nothing - two perpendicular lines. With education comes a bit of historical trivia regarding ancient methods of execution. Mythos, otoh recognizes that the cross means something far more abstract. Worn around a neck, for instance, these two meaningless lines shout "I'm a Christian!"

It's not just symbolism, but the very capacity for abstract thought. I've often said that science tells us what is, while religion (tries to) tell us what should be. Logos and mythos are not beliefs or worldviews or answers - they're not even the questions. the modes of thought which allow us to ask the questions at all.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Right, and people still have an interest in such things because they still get the same rewarding experience from them. If anything, people understand mythos more now, because there are more people who have the luxury of time to think about and focus on such things.
Really? Then where did Literalism come from?

For most of history, most people were too busy struggling to eek out a bare existence to have the luxury to ponder the meaning of existence and "mythos."
So? :shrug: Most people were likewise too busy to ponder why apples fell down, does that render Newton irrelevant?

That said, ancient peoples didn't need to ponder the meaning of mythos anymore than you need ponder logic. They simply embraced it.... They performed their rituals and told their stories, and followed the map without needing to be cartographers. The philosophers may have named it, but it was already there.

I understand many people like to put ancient people on some type of pedestal as though they all had some superior type of insight and wisdom, but this seems more of a reaction against one's own time and culture, than a serious analysis of ancient peoples.
Thank you ever so for the armchair psycho analysis, you know me so much better than I do. :sarcastic
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
But you seem to be conflating mythos with its expression, mythology. Mythology is only the... the symbol. Mythos is the capacity to understand symbolism.

By way of explanation, take a cross. To logos, a cross is nothing - two perpendicular lines. With education comes a bit of historical trivia regarding ancient methods of execution. Mythos, otoh recognizes that the cross means something far more abstract. Worn around a neck, for instance, these two meaningless lines shout "I'm a Christian!"

It's not just symbolism, but the very capacity for abstract thought. I've often said that science tells us what is, while religion (tries to) tell us what should be. Logos and mythos are not beliefs or worldviews or answers - they're not even the questions. the modes of thought which allow us to ask the questions at all.

What's an example of a modern decrease in the understanding or usage of mythos compared to a different era?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
What's an example of a modern decrease in the understanding or usage of mythos compared to a different era?
The modern variety of atheism, especially strong atheism is one, but far more troubling to my mind is fundamentalist religion, distilled in the phenomenon of Literalism.

I'd love to answer in more detail, but I've neglected my promise to wash the dishes for my father. Familial duty can be so inconvenient!

Will return shortly. :)
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Really? Then where did Literalism come from?

Some people taking some stories and attempting to fit them into a historical context. I don't understand your point. Are you implying that literalism is somehow a recent invention, or that it is more common for modern people to take myths literally? If so, please provide some type of factual basis for such claims.

So? :shrug: Most people were likewise too busy to ponder why apples fell down, does that render Newton irrelevant?

No, it makes Newton more relevant, just as more people now having the luxury to consider mythology, meaning, context, metaphor, etc points towards your average person having a better understanding of mythos now.

That said, ancient peoples didn't need to ponder the meaning of mythos anymore than you need ponder logic. They simply embraced it.... They performed their rituals and told their stories, and followed the map without needing to be cartographers. The philosophers may have named it, but it was already there.

Right, and people still do that. Others have the time and inclination to ponder it more. And logic does need to be pondered upon to be understood and used effectively. Basically, I don't understand why you think ancient people are any different than people today in regards to their experience of life in regards to myth. You're not providing and basis for why such an opinion has merit.

Thank you ever so for the armchair psycho analysis, you know me so much better than I do. :sarcastic

Possible.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
The modern variety of atheism, especially strong atheism is one, but far more troubling to my mind is fundamentalist religion, distilled in the phenomenon of Literalism.

I'd love to answer in more detail, but I've neglected my promise to wash the dishes for my father. Familial duty can be so inconvenient!

Will return shortly. :)

But those folks still use mythos, they just don't use select classic mythologies in the means intended. Other things substitute for them, like KT said - movies, TV, and fiction. When I mentioned the needs we used to have which mythologies explained and which are no longer needed, I was thinking of things science has now answered. Mysterious illnesses which used to be accounted for by sins or whims of gods are now explained by germs, bacteria, or environment.

Our mythos hasn't gone away, but the insistence on using obsolete mythologies to answer questions we no longer ask, and which leave new questions unanswered, is perhaps a factor in literalism or fundamentalism.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Some people taking some stories and attempting to fit them into a historical context. I don't understand your point. Are you implying that literalism is somehow a recent invention, or that it is more common for modern people to take myths literally? If so, please provide some type of factual basis for such claims.
Literalism is quite modern, yes. As evidence, I don't think I need go further than to point at the ludicrous results of reading Genesis as a history. I'd be happy to provide an article, however.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
But those folks still use mythos, they just don't use select classic mythologies in the means intended. Other things substitute for them, like KT said - movies, TV, and fiction. When I mentioned the needs we used to have which mythologies explained and which are no longer needed, I was thinking of things science has now answered. Mysterious illnesses which used to be accounted for by sins or whims of gods are now explained by germs, bacteria, or environment.

Our mythos hasn't gone away, but the insistence on using obsolete mythologies to answer questions we no longer ask, and which leave new questions unanswered, is perhaps a factor in literalism or fundamentalism.
Good point: it still flourishes in the arts. But in religion, it's been abandoned with disastrous results.

Until the ancient scriptures are abandoned, anyone who wishes to understand their religions must rediscover mythos consciously. That goes for the faithful and the atheist alike.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
Good point: it still flourishes in the arts. But in religion, it's been abandoned with disastrous results.

Until the ancient scriptures are abandoned, anyone who wishes to understand their religions must rediscover mythos consciously. That goes for the faithful and the atheist alike.

I'd agree with that. Mythos has shifted, and I think some methods of using religion need to catch up. I don't think the arts and religion used to be distinctly separate.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The modern variety of atheism, especially strong atheism is one, but far more troubling to my mind is fundamentalist religion, distilled in the phenomenon of Literalism.
How does atheism fall in this category? Wouldn't a person be just as inclined to not believe in god if they know to take myths symbolically?
 
Top