Lord of the Rings

[Todd]

Did anyone see any religious implications in the Lord of the Rings. I have heard some people say that Gandalf represented Jesus (in that he died and came back to life). Not sure about that, but I would like to here your opinions of places in this movie that might have religious overtones.

If not, just let me know what you though of the trilogy.

 

[michel]

I enjoyed the first of the trilogy the best; the last, i thought, was overly 'dragged out' in the battle - but that is only my personal view, although I have had people agree with me.


It had never occured to me that the trilogy had any religious connotations, but an essay written by Christy Di Frances

on the following site :-http://www.charis.wlc.edu/publications/symposium_spring03/difrances.pdf

Makes it clear that Tolkein was indeed consciously using his books as a vehicle for his religious beliefs..........

Extracts:-
The myth surrounding the events of the War of the Ring is, in the end, what makes them end up being true, in the strictest sense of the word. For Truth is, in its fullness, beyond the realm of human reality, an expression of God and not of mankind in his natural state. Thus, The Lord of the Rings myth is inherently Christian because it presents the reflection of Truth, which is One in essence.
............................................................................................
After reading the Rings, one sees and feels more deeply” (Kilby 74). Nature, or more specifically, the created order, is integral to life, and maintains a central role in J.R.R. Tolkien’s Christian myth—The Lord of the Rings. But to understand the significance of nature to the myth, it is first critical to comprehend the essence of the
myth itself.
............................................................................................
Certainly, Tolkien’s is a world “full of echoes of the Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Icelandic literature” with “its firm delineation of good against evil” (Cooper 143).
................................................................................................
Tolkien himself wrote: “I believe that legends and myths are largely made of ‘truth’. . .” (Carpenter, Letters 147), and the transcendence of fairy stories results directly from this connection. The great legends of olden times are not simply made up out of someone’s head. “Myth, inherited or created” can “offer a ‘sudden glimpse of Truth,’ that is, a brief view of heaven” (Birzer 24). This is a distinct perception of mythology’s intentions, gradually corrupted over time, until what was once the reflection of the great Truth has become a sort of fogged-over nursery mirror. But genuine fantasy, according to Tolkien, always points to Truth, and thus to Christianity.
It cannot be argued that powerful Christian implications exist within The Lord of the Rings saga. These can be traced back to the author’s concept of sub-creation, wherein the myth-writer fashions entire worlds from the recesses of his own imagination, thus emulating the role of the true Creator (Kilby 72). It is a sanctified venture, this endeavor to use one’s divinely endowed artistic ability. For Tolkien, a sub-creator “is actually fulfilling God’s purpose, and reflecting a splintered fragment of the true light”

 

[Natas]

Did anyone see any religious implications in the Lord of the Rings. I have heard some people say that Gandalf represented Jesus (in that he died and came back to life). Not sure about that, but I would like to here your opinions of places in this movie that might have religious overtones.

If not, just let me know what you though of the trilogy.

No, no religious connotations, but then I wasn't looking for any either. I did enjoy the trilogy very much, and highly recommend it to anyone that for some reason didn't see it.

 

[Todd]

No, no religious connotations, but then I wasn't looking for any either. I did enjoy the trilogy very much, and highly recommend it to anyone that for some reason didn't see it.

Tend to agree. I happened to hear and read about religious implications in some articles I read before I saw the movies(sorry, can't remember the exact article), so I was actually looking for religious sceens. I do think it is the typical battle between good and evil, but you really have to look hard to find events in the movie that could be related to religion. Very good movie series though.

By the way, good research Michel. It was an interesting read.

 

[Todd]

By the way, I did find the title of one of the books I read before I saw the movie. This is the book that prompted me to ask the question. It is called Finding God in The Lord or The Rings by Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware. Although, even after reading this it was still hard to find instances in the movie series or in the books.

There was a lot of questions regarding Tolkien's beliefs, although he's dead, so who really knows. That is what also influenced me to ask this.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Wasn't Tolkien a devout Christian, and a colleague of C.S. Lewis?

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I enjoyed the first of the trilogy the best; the last, i thought, was overly 'dragged out' in the battle - but that is only my personal view, although I have had people agree with me.


It had never occured to me that the trilogy had any religious connotations, but an essay written by Christy Di Frances

on the following site :-http://www.charis.wlc.edu/publications/symposium_spring03/difrances.pdf

Makes it clear that Tolkein was indeed consciously using his books as a vehicle for his religious beliefs..........

Extracts:-
The myth surrounding the events of the War of the Ring is, in the end, what makes them end up being true, in the strictest sense of the word. For Truth is, in its fullness, beyond the realm of human reality, an expression of God and not of mankind in his natural state. Thus, The Lord of the Rings myth is inherently Christian because it presents the reflection of Truth, which is One in essence.
............................................................................................
After reading the Rings, one sees and feels more deeply” (Kilby 74). Nature, or more specifically, the created order, is integral to life, and maintains a central role in J.R.R. Tolkien’s Christian myth—The Lord of the Rings. But to understand the significance of nature to the myth, it is first critical to comprehend the essence of the
myth itself.
............................................................................................
Certainly, Tolkien’s is a world “full of echoes of the Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Icelandic literature” with “its firm delineation of good against evil” (Cooper 143).
................................................................................................
Tolkien himself wrote: “I believe that legends and myths are largely made of ‘truth’. . .” (Carpenter, Letters 147), and the transcendence of fairy stories results directly from this connection. The great legends of olden times are not simply made up out of someone’s head. “Myth, inherited or created” can “offer a ‘sudden glimpse of Truth,’ that is, a brief view of heaven” (Birzer 24). This is a distinct perception of mythology’s intentions, gradually corrupted over time, until what was once the reflection of the great Truth has become a sort of fogged-over nursery mirror. But genuine fantasy, according to Tolkien, always points to Truth, and thus to Christianity.
It cannot be argued that powerful Christian implications exist within The Lord of the Rings saga. These can be traced back to the author’s concept of sub-creation, wherein the myth-writer fashions entire worlds from the recesses of his own imagination, thus emulating the role of the true Creator (Kilby 72). It is a sanctified venture, this endeavor to use one’s divinely endowed artistic ability. For Tolkien, a sub-creator “is actually fulfilling God’s purpose, and reflecting a splintered fragment of the true light”

It's only Christian because people want it to be Christian. The characters and events are more representative of archetypes, which can be Christian or not depending on whether the person looking has an underlying Christian perception of things.
Gandalf can be said to represent Jesus through his death and subsequent ressurection, but Jesus isn't the only - or even the first - figure of a mythology to die and come back. Rather than representing Jesus as such, Gandalf is more a representation of the generalised figure. If you're not a Christian, then the name you give that figure is going to be something other than Jesus.
There is so much in the books that didn't make it to the films - as well as a wealth of other Middle earth literature available aside from these three books - that I think it's really impossible to draw any definitive conclusions just from watching the movies.
Having said that, I thought Peter Jackson did an excellent job with the movies (I'd like to see what he could do with 'Magician', for those who are familiar with that series of books), but having first read the trilogy when I was about 14 (I read The Hobbit the year before) and reread it several times since, there's always something new to find within the pages of the books, as well as the natural changes in perspective that come with age.
I give the books a 9.9 out of 10, with the point lost due to my copy being a paperback omnibus with less than adequate binding (and subsequently no cover).

 

[Todd]

Wasn't Tolkien a devout Christian, and a colleague of C.S. Lewis?

He was a colleague of C.S. Lewis, but from what I understand, he never fully expressed his beliefs. I have heard that he expressed himself through symbolism in books, but not totally sure. Doesn't really matter though, because in my mind, he was a great writer and had great vision.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

He was a colleague of C.S. Lewis, but from what I understand, he never fully expressed his beliefs.

I did not know that...thanks.

I have heard that he expressed himself through symbolism in books, but not totally sure. Doesn't really matter though, because in my mind, he was a great writer and had great vision.

He has certainly made a lot of people very happy through his writing.

 

[Natas]

Wasn't Tolkien a devout Christian, and a colleague of C.S. Lewis?

You are correct on both assumptions Mr_Spinkles.

J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biographical Sketch

 

[Todd]

You are correct on both assumptions Mr_Spinkles.

J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biographical Sketch

Thanks Natas. Wasn't aware that he was Catholic.

 

[Ceridwen018]

I've heard so many urban legends about different things that Tolkein included as "secret undertones." Such as, "The fellowship of the ring" was really some kind of gay-symbol or whatnot. Personally, I think that people can read anything into anything if they try hard enough, and that these things are to be expected with a cult phenomenon like this trilogy. I think its all silly, but thats just my two cents.

By the by, I enjoyed the movies very much! Has anyone had the stamina to watch the extended version of the third one yet? I certainly haven't!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I thought the one shown in theaters WAS the extended version....

 

[Natas]

I've heard so many urban legends about different things that Tolkein included as "secret undertones." Such as, "The fellowship of the ring" was really some kind of gay-symbol or whatnot. Personally, I think that people can read anything into anything if they try hard enough, and that these things are to be expected with a cult phenomenon like this trilogy. I think its all silly, but thats just my two cents.

I agree Ceridwen, and not just with this trilogy. Virgin Mary

By the by, I enjoyed the movies very much! Has anyone had the stamina to watch the extended version of the third one yet? I certainly haven't!

Yes, and it is much better then the theatrical version.

 

[Voxton]

I read the eddas before LOTR, so I (mistakenly) thought Tolkien a bit of a hack -- Gandalf was a freakin' dwarf, after all. Heheheh. Read the books, people...

Mind ya, I love Peter Jackson. Meet the Feebles, anyone?

 

[Lady Crimson]

I actually looked for religious connotations in the book...I couldn't find any...and this is quite strange considering that it is a fantasy book...most fantasy books have mythological conotations.

Gandalf was a freakin' dwarf, after all.

actually...he was a human.

 

[Todd]

I read the eddas before LOTR, so I (mistakenly) thought Tolkien a bit of a hack -- Gandalf was a freakin' dwarf, after all. Heheheh. Read the books, people...

Mind ya, I love Peter Jackson. Meet the Feebles, anyone?

Thought Gandalf (Mithrandir was another name he was called) was a Wizard. Gimli was the dwarf. Just finished reading the trilogy.

 

[Hope]

Gandalf was actually not really human. Wizards were in a class of their own. If I remember correctly, he---and all the wizards---were actually the same 'type' of being as Sauron. I have an encyclopedia of Tolkien's works ( yes, I'm a geek! ), that explains in detail and in a less confusing way, the entire history of Middle Earth and its inhabitants ( as derived mainly from The Silmarillon ).

 

[Ceridwen018]

I have an encyclopedia of Tolkien's works ( yes, I'm a geek! )

Hey, my friend is currently learning his Elvish off of some website.

Geeky as that might be, Tolkien was incredibly intelligent to have actually created numerous complete languages!

 

[Hope]

"...and I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times, maybe excite them or deeply move them...As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none...Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." ~ Taken from the Foreword written by Tolkien himself, for Lord of the Rings

There it is, folks, straight from the author's mouth. While I certainly agree aspects and elements of LOTR resemble Christian doctrine, none of LOTR was meant to specifically point towards Christianity. Yes, Tolkien was a Christian, and his beliefs influenced his writing to an extent, but, as he states, nothing he wrote was intentionally allegorical in nature. Also, one has to keep in mind, he drew from a lot of different myths and histories to create his characters and world. So, yes, God can be found in LOTR if you want to find Him, but so can a lot of other things!