Love, sex, and spirituality

[ppp]

But 'trying' to police adult and consensual sex has not worked very well to stop anyone from having sex, has it?

It has worked to make life dangerous, miserable and deadly for the people who are trying to live their lives. How are you oblivious to this?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is affection(physical or otherwise) a need or a desire?

It is a desire. It is what most people want. It is not a need because a person can survive without it.
It is no more of a need than religion or belief in God is a need is a need.

Friendship? Society?

Desire. It is what most people want, to have friends and be part of society. Needs are food, water, sleep, and some means of support.

 

[Trailblazer]

It has worked to make life dangerous, miserable and deadly for the people who are trying to live their lives. How are you oblivious to this?

I am not oblivious, I just don't understand.
Can you explain how it has worked to make life dangerous, miserable and deadly for the people who are trying to live their lives?

 

[ppp]

It is no more of a need than religion or belief in God is a need is a need.

Well, that's not true. Being shunned has all sorts of has all sorts of terrible physiological and psychological effects on people that not believing in a god rarely has.

Depression, anxiety, reduced self-esteem, Impaired cognitive function. Stress responses that can lead to long term issues like heart disease, or stroke. Compromise of the immune system. And bunches of others.

 

[ppp]

I am not oblivious, I just don't understand.

If you are not oblivious to your fellow humans than you must be aware of something. What?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, that's not true. Being shunned has all sorts of has all sorts of terrible physiological and psychological effects on people that not believing in a god rarely has.

Depression, anxiety, reduced self-esteem, Impaired cognitive function. Stress responses that can lead to long term issues like heart disease, or stroke. Compromise of the immune system. And bunches of others.

You said: Is affection(physical or otherwise) a need or a desire?

I said: It is a desire. It is what most people want. It is not a need because a person can survive without it.
It is no more of a need than religion or belief in God is a need is a need.

We were talking about affection(physical or otherwise).
What does this have to do with being shunned? Shunned for what? Who is being shunned?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you are not oblivious to your fellow humans than you must be aware of something. What?

I can't be oblivious to something I am not even aware of.
Can you explain what you think I am oblivious to?
Can you explain how 'trying' to police adult and consensual sex has worked to make life dangerous, miserable and deadly for the people who are trying to live their lives?

 

[ppp]

I can't be oblivious to something I am not even aware of.

I cannot take anyone who would write that sentence seriously. Rather that mock you, as would be appropriate, I will just bid you good night.

 

[Trailblazer]

I cannot take anyone who would write that sentence seriously. Rather that mock you, as would be appropriate, I will just bid you good night.

I am sincere in saying I do not understand what you are talking about.

If 'trying' to police adult and consensual sex has worked to make life dangerous, miserable and deadly for the people who are trying to live their lives you should be able to explain how. Who are these people whose lives have become dangerous, miserable and deadly? Is it a secret? Are you refusing to answer because you think I might disagree with you?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If sex is 'necessary' to keep the bond strong then the bond is not very strong, Imo.

Then why not make it stronger with sex?

What if one of the partners doesn't want sex? Do you think that is a reason to split up?

Not always, but it can be. For me, it would be a reason to never be an intimate couple in the first place. I told you my story. Although I had had lovers before marriage, I became a devout Christian through the woman I would later marry, a fellow soldier in the Army also living in the barracks. When we got married, we not only had had no sexual experience of one another, I didn't know her at all. I discovered that I had married an eccentric, frigid woman unable to express love and with a disabling phobia against spending money. So, along with leaving the religion, I divorced her. I eventually remarried, but not before living together first. That one worked out.

A word about that inability to spend money. Many have joked that they wished their wives had that problem, but it was terrible. She never wanted to go out. No movies and no restaurants. I was going out to eat alone for awhile, but then purchased on of those coupon books for assorted restaurants where you pay for the more expensive meal and get the other one free. I'd tell her I'm going out and buying a meal, and she was welcome to get one for free or stay home. That worked, but there were just too many problems to overcome.

Did you hear about the man who got a call from the police that they had recovered his wife's stolen credit card? He said to let them keep it because they used it less.

sex is not really a need, it is a desire.

OK, but so what? We try to fulfill both when we can. From the pen of the poet:

When Ruthie says come see her
In her honky-tonk lagoon
Where I can watch her waltz for free
’Neath her Panamanian moon
An’ I say, “Aw come on now
You must know about my debutante”
An’ she says, “Your debutante just knows what you need
But I know what you want”

It is 'one reason' why extramarital sex can be harmful to individuals and society, unless you think abortion is not problematic.

The possibility of an unwanted pregnancy is not a good reason for most to avoid sex if legal abortion is an option. And being married to your lover doesn't reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy.

I can't be oblivious to something I am not even aware of.

"Oblivious - not aware of or not concerned about what is happening around one."

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why not make it stronger with sex?

It may or may not make the bond stronger. I don't think it will make the bond stronger 'unless' both partners want sex. If one of the partners doesn't want sex it could make the bond weaker by causing disharmony.

Not always, but it can be. For me, it would be a reason to never be an intimate couple in the first place. I told you my story. Although I had had lovers before marriage, I became a devout Christian through the woman I would later marry, a fellow soldier in the Army also living in the barracks. When we got married, we not only had had no sexual experience of one another, I didn't know her at all. I discovered that I had married an eccentric, frigid woman unable to express love and with a disabling phobia against spending money. So, along with leaving the religion, I divorced her. I eventually remarried, but not before living together first. That one worked out.

I had a somewhat similar experience but I did not get divorced. I might have told you about it a long time ago. It is similar to your experience in that I did not know my husband very well before I married him, since we got married three weeks after we met, so I did not know what to expect in the sex department. Neither one of us had any prior sexual experience but I just assumed a man would know what to do, but that was an incorrect assumption and it cause a lot of problems right after we got married and for some time after that. I did not know what to do, so I finally went to a sex therapist and that got the ball rolling.

Eventually it got all worked out but it took a while. Sadly, he had some emotional issues regarding sex since as a teenager he came onto his stepmother and was rejected, so that set him up for not wanting to ever initiate sex, and I don't think he ever did, but since I had a high sex drive I took care of everything. The problems with sex started after we had been married for about 15 years and we had relationship problems, so I did not want to be close to him. Nevertheless we stayed married for the next 22 years and lived together in harmony for the most part, as companions and spiritual help-mates, until death took him from me.

A word about that inability to spend money. Many have joked that they wished their wives had that problem, but it was terrible. She never wanted to go out. No movies and no restaurants. I was going out to eat alone for awhile, but then purchased on of those coupon books for assorted restaurants where you pay for the more expensive meal and get the other one free. I'd tell her I'm going out and buying a meal, and she was welcome to get one for free or stay home. That worked, but there were just too many problems to overcome.

My late husband and I always liked to go out to eat. We had one rough patch when I lost my job and got demoted into another low-paying position owing to budget cuts in the agency, but other than that we always went out to eat once or twice a week. We agreed on mots things, including religion and the cats, and even sex when we were having it! I now regret that I stopped having sex and I blame myself, but if he had really wanted it he should have spoken up, and it is not as if we never had any discussions about it. If he would not admit he wanted sex because of shame, that is not my fault.

Did you hear about the man who got a call from the police that they had recovered his wife's stolen credit card? He said to let them keep it because they used it less.

OK, but so what? We try to fulfill both when we can. From the pen of the poet:

I don't see anything wrong with that. My life simply took a different turn and then I could not turn back around once the pattern set in. If I ever get married again I will do things a lot differently. Hindsight is 20-20.

The possibility of an unwanted pregnancy is not a good reason for most to avoid sex if legal abortion is an option. And being married to your lover doesn't reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy.

Given that there are birth control methods that are 98-99% effective, abortion should not be needed as a birth control method.
Being married doesn't reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy but most abortions are performed on unmarried women.

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

In 2019, unmarried women accounted for 86% of all abortions (CDC).

Among married women, 4% of 2019 pregnancies (excluding spontaneous miscarriages) ended in abortion. Among unmarried women, 28% ended in abortion (CDC).

Women in their 20s accounted for the majority of abortions in 2019 and had the highest abortion rates (CDC).

Adolescents under 15 years obtained 0.2% of all 2019 abortions; women aged 15–19 years accounted for 8.5% (CDC).

Women living with a partner to whom they are not married account for 25% of abortions but only about 10% of women in the population (NAF).

U.S. Abortion Statistics

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Given that there are birth control methods that are 98-99% effective, abortion should not be needed as a birth control method.

After about 50 acts of intercourse, the odds that something that is 98.5% effective will fail is close to 50/50: 0.985 ^ 50 = 0.47. And people are not 100% reliable, either, further increasing the chance that one of those acts will result in a pregnancy. The option to choose abortion is needed as a last resort to prevent unwanted pregnancy. The fight against abortion rights is mostly religious in origin, which doesn't mind forcing unwanted pregnancies to term even in people outside of their religion.

Being married doesn't reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy but most abortions are performed on unmarried women.

You seem to think that's meaningful in this context. Is this an argument against sex with or for unmarried women?

 

[Trailblazer]

After about 50 acts of intercourse, the odds that something that is 98.5% effective will fail is close to 50/50: 0.985 ^ 50 = 0.47. And people are not 100% reliable, either, further increasing the chance that one of those acts will result in a pregnancy. The option to choose abortion is needed as a last resort to prevent unwanted pregnancy. The fight against abortion rights is mostly religious in origin, which doesn't mind forcing unwanted pregnancies to term even in people outside of their religion.

I am not going to weigh in on the abortion issue. There is no Baha'i Law absolutely prohibiting abortion, but guidance has been given to the Baha'is, which only applies to Baha'is.

"Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1154)

You seem to think that's meaningful in this context. Is this an argument against sex with or for unmarried women?

No, I was just pointing out the statistics. In 2019, unmarried women accounted for 86% of all abortions (CDC).
You can come to your own conclusions as to why this is the case. Perhaps unmarried women are not as careful with birth control as married women, but I think the biggest reason there are fewer abortions among married women is because they are much more likely to want to keep the baby.

 

[CG Didymus]

Is affection(physical or otherwise) a need or a desire? Friendship? Society?

There is a need that people have sex in order to have children. Whether from a God or just nature, a strong desire is built into people, so they will want to have sex... and it's made enjoyable. And there's a variety of ways to make it more enjoyable. But some religions and religious people had to find ways to make it evil and wrong to enjoy most of those ways. Saying their invisible God hates people that do certain sexual things was the best way to get some people not to do those things. And when they do, to feel guilty about having done them or to even think about doing them.

Baha'is, I think are too extreme. But they had to draw the line somewhere. So, they drew it to where a person wasn't "spiritual" if they lived for the "desires" of the flesh. Kissing, playing with oneself, or doing anything before marriage is against what their God says is okay. But can we trust this God that less than two hundred years ago said it was alright for a man to have three wives?

For me it's questionable whether it's a real God or just people in a culture that make up these moral codes and then say that they came from some God.

Here's a couple of quotes about the Baha'i beliefs...

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Baha'u'llah, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets Abdu'l-Baha encourages us to keep our 'secret thoughts pure'.​

​

"What Bahá'u'lláh means by chastity certainly does not include the kissing that goes on in modern society. It is detrimental to the morals of young people, and often leads them to go too far, or arouses appetites which they cannot perhaps at the time satisfy legitimately through marriage, and the suppression of which is a strain on them.​

​

-from a letter dated October 19, 1947 from a letter written on behalf of SE to an individual believer​

​

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's a couple of quotes about the Baha'i beliefs...

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Baha'u'llah, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets Abdu'l-Baha encourages us to keep our 'secret thoughts pure'."What Bahá'u'lláh means by chastity certainly does not include the kissing that goes on in modern society. It is detrimental to the morals of young people, and often leads them to go too far, or arouses appetites which they cannot perhaps at the time satisfy legitimately through marriage, and the suppression of which is a strain on them.-from a letter dated October 19, 1947 from a letter written on behalf of SE to an individual believer

No one has a comment about these beliefs? Oh well, I do. They are setting up a lot of Baha'is to fail. If the Baha'i is not perfectly chaste, as defined by their religion, they are impure... They have given themselves over to their fleshly desires... And are they going to admit it? Are they going to try and overcome their impure thoughts and actions? I think most won't. Which, like many Christians, they can't live up to the standards of their own religion. But, outwardly, act as if they are.

 

[Trailblazer]

No one has a comment about these beliefs? Oh well, I do. They are setting up a lot of Baha'is to fail. If the Baha'i is not perfectly chaste, as defined by their religion, they are impure... They have given themselves over to their fleshly desires... And are they going to admit it? Are they going to try and overcome their impure thoughts and actions? I think most won't.

Since no one has a comment, I am going to comment, even though I know you won't answer me.

How do you know that most won't? I cannot speak for all Baha'is and I don't know what they are thinking or doing behind closed doors, but I hear the Baha'i talking about this on a Baha'i forum so I know for a fact that many do.

Perhaps you are projecting how important fleshy desires are compared to one's love for God and the Faith and the desire to be obedient?
I used to have fleshy desires until I realized they are nothing. A few minutes of physical pleasure does not hold a candle to Baha'u'llah and what He revealed.

Which, like many Christians, they can't live up to the standards of their own religion. But, outwardly, act as if they are.

Just because Christians can't abide by the standards set by their religion that doesn't mean that Baha'is can't, but whether or not they do is only between themselves and God.