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"Love thy enemy": Some thoughts on Paris

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's the second day since the attacks in Paris. there's signs that we're probably going to go through a trauma of somekind pn RF and are lashing out at each other. That was somewhat predictable but it's ugly to watch. Regardless of what I say, it will probably have its own momentum which will have to burn itself out, so I realise that I'm probably not speaking to those who actually are the one expressing these opinions as any attempt to take the "other side" is some sort of betrayal. but if you are reading this, I hope in the muddle of these thoughts I will give you some pause and you will take a step back and ask what you are really angry about. maybe help this heal a little faster.

be honest, you don't hate "them". For the most part you don't even know who "they" are. What really scares you is the fact that something like what happens in Paris disturbs our sense of complacency, that "someone" is intruding our own lives. that someone "out-there" wants you to be afriad for being yourself, and it is offensive.

I'm not prone to quoting scripture, but there are somethings that religions got right. At times like this, we should remember to "love thy enemy". And no, love is not a weakness or cowardice in the face of atrocity; if anything it is because we have to see how wretched people who do these things are, how utterly pitiful that we stop being afriad of them because then we know they can be defeated because they defeated themselves a long time ago.

These are people who feel overwhelmed by the world, by the pace of the changes that are going on. they feel at the mercy of forces beyond their control. they lash out and try to fit the world into some kind of preconcieved pattern where they believe they will make them safe. But saftey is always just out of their grasp, their sense of vulnerability, the feeling of insignificance nashing at their heals, drowning in the knowledge of the futility of fighting a rising tide, filled with the lust for blood. It doesn't matter whether they are Muslims or not, fanatics are essentially all the same; they live with a permanant state of emotional diseqilibrium between the belief in the authoritarian insistence on the purity of their ideals and the imperfections of a world that changes and grows, as all things do. they are as tyrannical to themselves as they are to others. their perfectionism is the root of their fanaticism and personal growth their greatest enemy. their ideals cripple them; that is why they are angry and also that is why they will be beaten.

They are, in their own way, victims because they have come to see the world as a nightmare and then they try to make it real for everyone else. The only thing that they can do is make us afriad. Terrorism, is by definition an admission of failure. it means that you have failed to convince people, and that you do not believe that people will hear you or listen to you or be convinced. you can't make the change the want so you are fighting for relevance, whether it be on the pages of newspapers or on the television screens. you are already dying, so what harm is there in taking everyone else with you? so you scare them. you make them feel mortal, and you use their own power against them.

The West has made mistakes in the middle east, and there is no doubt that these things will not be resolved for a long time. no matter how angry you feel, days will pass and your anger will not end the conflict in Israel or Palestine; ISIS will still be flying under a black banner in Iraq and Syria, and Saudi Arabia will still be selling oil to the West. These things won't change just because you get angry and feel hurt. When Bin Laden attacked the World Trade Centre, it wasn't simply because he had greivances with the West. He needed us, he needed us to lash out and to inspire the kind of hatred in the Middle East that would make his dream of an Islamic Caliphate a reality. He succeeded in so far as the US and the UK invaded Iraq and, to a lesser extent, Afghanistan. the cost of those wara- along with many other things- broke the US economy and the source of their power. its struck at our sense of self-assurance as well.

Once, there was Al Quieda. Now there is ISIS. Don't let them make you angry or afriad. That is what gives them their power. it is what makes them relevant. turn off the TV. stop reading the newspapers. you have lives to live. don't let them take that away from you because they made you feel mortal. they too are mortal and they are already defeated, not on the battlefield, but in the war of ideas. they can't make us dream, they don't inspire us, they do not have joy or love in their hearts. they can't make us want to be like them. they are more afriad of you, than you are of them. What they fear is that void- that there is this vast and godless world, just over the horizon, where people live in the choas of choices, without clear meaning, purpose and who are content with a big mac, a coke and extra fries. They have seen the depths of hell and it is the West and its open for business, spreading the nihilist decadance of consumerism deep in to the Muslim world. The Infidel is being broadcast into their living room- and they feel surronded like there is no escape. the serpant from the garden of eden slithers round the dark recesses of their minds, the devil hissing uncomfortable truths. they want it to stop- whatever the cost. And who is decide what is sane in this crazy world?

So what of it? bombing us won't build a new world. it won't solve the poverty or hunger of the Middle East. it won't heal age old ethnic or religious conflicts and get people to work together. But when your that insigificant- it feels good to **** off everyone else. it makes you relevant. it make you big. it makes you matter. in other words, terrorists are the internet trolls of global politics.

Ignore them. don't give them what they want. don't take it out on the "Muslims" as if they are all the same as that. don't give them more victims to indoctorinate or use fear as a weapon. "love thy enemy" and you'll see the only weapon they have is their own destruction. they are martyrs because they think they haven't got anything better to give the world. prove them wrong- show them you are not afriad and perhaps they'll realise they don't have to be either. the only thing they fear more than us, is becoming like us.

thats why they hate us- because someone made them hate themselves and they blame "us" for reminding them of their vulnerabilities, their imperfections and the sands of time slipping through there fingers, fearing that they will be judged as harshly as they judge others. death is their enemy as much as their weapon. death kills there dreams too. love thy enemy and you'll see the child who grew up to want to kill people. how wretched a fate is that for a human being? isn't there some part of you that would wish they had a greater ambition than being the monster hiding under your bed? forgive them. they live as if they are already dead.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
It's the second day since the attacks in Paris. there's signs that we're probably going to go through a trauma of somekind pn RF and are lashing out at each other. That was somewhat predictable but it's ugly to watch. Regardless of what I say...

...

...thats why they hate us- because someone made them hate themselves and they blame "us" for reminding them of their vulnerabilities, their imperfections and the sands of time slipping through there fingers, fearing that they will be judged as harshly as they judge others. death is their enemy as much as their weapon. death kills there dreams too. love thy enemy and you'll see the child who grew up to want to kill people. how wretched a fate is that for a human being? isn't there some part of you that would wish they had a greater ambition than being the monster hiding under your bed? forgive them. they live as if they are already dead.
...

I'm not even sure how to begin on explaining how wrong this is. Not all things, or all people, are lashing out at the world because they're "hurt" or "vulnerable". Some people are just trying to take charge of the situation, do what they think is best. You don't kill thousands of people because your mommy didn't hug you enough. You do it because you're convinced it's the right thing to do.
 

Shusha

Member
I believe it is a grave mistake to characterize oppressive, murderous abusers as victims. I believe doing this empowers them and requires us to transfer responsibility from them to us -- a move which they will find very satisfactory. It leaves us with the idea that if we only treated them right, loved them, helped them, (insert 'correct' behaviour here), then they would cease their abuse of us. But the opposite occurs -- it only entrenches their belief in their own abusive behaviour. Its not about us and we have absolutely no responsibility for their behaviour. Its about them and their ideology.

And make no mistake -- they have an ideology which is clear, very well thought out, intellectual, persuasive and rooted in divine instruction with a strict and unyielding interpretation of same, which they see as a perfect morality. They have a clearly defined long-term goal and the means to that end is divinely ordained and therefore can not be questioned, even if the short term consequences are 'unfortunate'. The ultimate outcome is a world which submits to and is obedient to their god because all people will be participating, correctly behaving Muslims, or will be enslaved (pagans), or will be subjugated (Christians) or will be dead (Jews and apostates).

While it seems appalling to some of us, the underlying ideology is more elegant and more charismatic than most people give credit to. Which is exactly why it is so dangerous.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Loving your enemy doesn't mean you approve of their actions. People get that confused. You are to show mercy on them. I wouldn't want anyone dead though. Not even the most awful people on the planet. What would I prove? That I could be just as ruthless if not, more so, by emulating their actions? The one responsible should suffer the consequences but people love to blame entire groups because it's easier to just label them all the same. I still can't believe after all these years, some people have this mentality that every Muslim is bad. Aside from the fact that I have Muslim friends, which proves them wrong, there's multiple branches within Islam and not every Muslim has the same rules, beliefs and customs. There are good Muslims as well as bad. Most of the haters never even met one. They just get spoon fed half truths and exaggerations from the media instead of getting experience. Some people love to take the easy route and just blame them all but what's easy is not always right.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I believe it is a grave mistake to characterize oppressive, murderous abusers as victims. I believe doing this empowers them and requires us to transfer responsibility from them to us -- a move which they will find very satisfactory. It leaves us with the idea that if we only treated them right, loved them, helped them, (insert 'correct' behaviour here), then they would cease their abuse of us. But the opposite occurs -- it only entrenches their belief in their own abusive behaviour. Its not about us and we have absolutely no responsibility for their behaviour. Its about them and their ideology.

And make no mistake -- they have an ideology which is clear, very well thought out, intellectual, persuasive and rooted in divine instruction with a strict and unyielding interpretation of same, which they see as a perfect morality. They have a clearly defined long-term goal and the means to that end is divinely ordained and therefore can not be questioned, even if the short term consequences are 'unfortunate'. The ultimate outcome is a world which submits to and is obedient to their god because all people will be participating, correctly behaving Muslims, or will be enslaved (pagans), or will be subjugated (Christians) or will be dead (Jews and apostates).

While it seems appalling to some of us, the underlying ideology is more elegant and more charismatic than most people give credit to. Which is exactly why it is so dangerous.
And here's the equally-wrong alternative line of thought!

The one that characterizes them as some sort of unstoppable juggernaut unless immediately stopped. They're not. They're far less dangerous than "threats" of the past. This is still just a rebellion. It's not a diplomatically recognized state. It's an armed mass movement. One that is reliant on religious fervour. Religious fervour is a potent thing, but it's not infinite. Once their claims of divine right run aground(as all such claims have & will), the movement will cease up and turn inward, and begin to fight itself, because the quick & easy "victories" cannot be sustained. They'll think they've "lost their way" and every ******** with a believer or two will decide that he's the true successor to whoever & whatever, and will try and prove it by taking charge. You can imagine how that might go.

The key is to wait. It will happen. It's a question of how long. The first real challenge to their notions of divine aid will shatter them.
 

Shusha

Member
Imagine if the world ignored the Nazis. I hear you Laika, but this reminds me of a quote...

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke


The world DID ignore the Nazi ideology. For a very very long time. Actually, they didn't so much ignore it as they minimized it and excused it and denied it. Exactly as we are doing now with ISIS.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
The world DID ignore the Nazi ideology. For a very very long time. Actually, they didn't so much ignore it as they minimized it and excused it and denied it. Exactly as we are doing now with ISIS.
I know. You know, it's interesting, I didn't know that about the Nazis until a few years ago, that the world, in particular the US ignored the situation going on there, or just perhaps didn't think it was as dire as it actually was. :( Anyway, hopefully we don't repeat history.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Agreed. But in order to stop them (and we agree that we should, yes?), we need to understand their ideology.
Their ideology isn't unique, or terribly complex. It's bog-standard "we better, they bad" wrapped up with mysticism and fundamentalism. There are no intricacies beyond what flavour of hate or intolerance they're flying at this particular moment.

The world DID ignore the Nazi ideology. For a very very long time. Actually, they didn't so much ignore it as they minimized it and excused it and denied it. Exactly as we are doing now with ISIS.
..for the love of all that good & decent, don't ****ing go there. The two aren't comparable in any possible capacity beyond being based around opposition to "others".
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
..for the love of all that good & decent, don't ****ing go there. The two aren't comparable in any possible capacity beyond being based around opposition to "others".

ISIS and the Nazi party are most definitely different, but curious as to why you are saying this?
 

Shusha

Member
Their ideology isn't unique, or terribly complex. It's bog-standard "we better, they bad" wrapped up with mysticism and fundamentalism. There are no intricacies beyond what flavour of hate or intolerance they're flying at this particular moment.


..for the love of all that good & decent, don't ****ing go there. The two aren't comparable in any possible capacity beyond being based around opposition to "others".


I disagree. Their ideology is unique and complex. And we should understand what makes it unique and complex. This gives us the tools we need to combat it successfully. It is far more than just a vague concept of "otherness" and it has little to do with hate.

And you don't think there are any parallels between the Nazis and ISIS? You don't think there are parallels in their ultimate goals and their justifications for those goals? Or the actual effects of them putting practice to achieve those goals by killing people?
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
ISIS and the Nazi party are most definitely different, but curious as to why you are saying this?
National Socialism was centered around the mistreatment of Germany by the Entente, mixed with antisemitism in the form of belief in a "conspiracy" by a perceived "Jewish Banker elite", who were somehow also behind Communism and Bolshevism in particular. It would grow to take on elements unique to itself, specifically an extremely confusing form of social-Darwinism that place Nordic-Germans at the head of human development & culture, with "the Jew" and "the Negro" at the bottom. There's more. A lot more. But I can't help but feel we're derailing the thread.

I disagree. Their ideology is unique and complex. And we should understand what makes it unique and complex. This gives us the tools we need to combat it successfully. It is far more than just a vague concept of "otherness" and it has little to do with hate.
How does it not have anything to do with hate? They see the West(and, in fact, the 'East' as understood as East Asia) as somehow being against their crazed variant of YHWH, and the servitors of that system should be converted or destroyed.

And you don't think there are any parallels between the Nazis and ISIS? You don't think there are parallels in their ultimate goals and their justifications for those goals? Or the actual effects of them putting practice to achieve those goals by killing people?
Unless you're sitting on some evidence I'm not aware of, I don't see them being about racial supremacy, nor do I see any notions comparable to Lebensraum or Blut & Boden. Theirs is religious, not racial. That is a radically different dynamic. You can't alter race, but religion is completely optional.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Imagine if the world ignored the Nazis. I hear you Laika, but this reminds me of a quote...

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Exactly. Loving thy enemy won't stop them from killing you at all costs. There's a time where hating thy enemy sometimes needs to come into play. It has to be done.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Exactly. Loving thy enemy won't stop them from killing you at all costs. There's a time where hating thy enemy sometimes needs to come into play. It has to be done.

For me, so be it. I am not afraid to physically die. I wouldn't become what I despise before doing so. That's my nature. I have no enemies. Internal revenge and hatred would be more of an enemy for me than any human being.

Others have nature where they can physically kill others. It's within their nature. It's currently in their DNA and hearts.

Hypothetically, if France came to you right now, took you... Said you were going on foot to raid Isis buildings... would you have what it took to kill these enemies?
 
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