Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[Tiberius]

Work is my middle name. You have no idea how much time I have logged in posting to atheists.
It started on other forums and continued here.

Then I look forward to you demonstrating to me that a deity exists.

Simply put, because God only does what God chooses to do.
Omnipotence implies ability but it also implies that God only USES that ability as He chooses to use it, NOT as you want Him to use it. Here is what omnipotence implies, in a nutshell:

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest.He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain.

· That means you have no right to question what God ordains. It is what it is and YOU cannot change it.

for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will.

· That means God has complete power and He does whatever He chooses to do, which implies that He is not going to do what you think He should do or what you want Him to do, unless He chooses to do it.

To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish.

· That means if God feels like giving you something you will get it but if not you won’t.

Hang on. Now you are saying it's because God chooses not to, yet earlier you were saying it is because COULDN'T do it.

So which is it? God can't or won't

God gives us reasons why He chooses to do what He does and does not do and those reasons can be found in the scriptures. If you have specific questions the answers can be found in scriptures. But of you do not accept the answers then it is like you are challenging God. We cannot challenge God and win. God always wins because God is omnipotent.

You haven't shown me any reason why God does things this particular way. Even the passages you posted here say nothing more than, "This is the way God does it" without giving any reasoning as to why.

 

[cataway]

Of course, there is nothing that we could learn here on Earth that God couldn't just give to us with a snap of his fingers. And since he's omnipotent, doing so would be very easy for him to do.

would that not be an act of un-righteousness

 

[Tiberius]

would that not be an act of un-righteousness

Why would it be unrighteous?

 

[cataway]

Why would it be unrighteous?

you have free will to act against what he has given would be dubious

 

[cataway]

why be worried about loved ones in hell when hell is really nothing more than the grave , the place where the dead are put

 

[Tiberius]

you have free will to act against what he has given would be dubious

This doesn't answer the question.

 

[cataway]

This doesn't answer the question.

he is not righteous like a man may be considered righteous in fact its far, far beyond that . perhaps you could do a study on righteousness as it pertains to God

 

[Tiberius]

he is not righteous like a man may be considered righteous in fact its far, far beyond that . perhaps you could do a study on righteousness as it pertains to God

You are still not answering my question. Why would it be unrighteous for God to snap his fingers and give us what we need?

 

[Trailblazer]

So the all-powerful being doesn't have the power to give himself fingers.

The question is not whether God could do it, the question is why He would want to have fingers. God only does what God wants to do.

So the all-powerful being that created the universe in such a way that we need to live a life here on earth to achieve certain things didn't have the power to set it up any differently.

I never said that God did not have the power to set it up differently, but God did not set up differently, and He had His reasons. If God is All-Knowing and All-Wise it is logical to assume God knows the best way to set it up to accomplish His purposes.

So far your position has been rather unconvincing to me. I'm not going to spend money to read an argument for a position I doubt will convince me.

You can read what is free to read on the Amazon website.

 

[cataway]

You are still not answering my question. Why would it be unrighteous for God to snap his fingers and give us what we need?

umm you dont seem to understand how far the righteousness of God goes. believe it or not ,there are some things God can not do because of his righteousness

 

[Trailblazer]

Then I look forward to you demonstrating to me that a deity exists.

Nobody can demonstrate that to another person, a person can only demonstrate that to themself.

Hang on. Now you are saying it's because God chooses not to, yet earlier you were saying it is because COULDN'T do it.

So which is it? God can't or won't

I do not know what God can do, only God knows that.

You haven't shown me any reason why God does things this particular way. Even the passages you posted here say nothing more than, "This is the way God does it" without giving any reasoning as to why.

The way God does what? I cannot say why God does anything unless that has been revealed by a Messenger of God. Baha'u'llah explained why God does certain things but not everything. I told you why God wants us to live through this world. The primary reason is so we can to develop spiritual attributes (qualities of character) that we will need in Heaven. But there there are other purposes of this life on Earth. The following articles explain that and they are free to read.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-is-purpose-of-life?
https://bahaiteachings.org/what-is-purpose-lives?

 

[Tiberius]

The question is not whether God could do it, the question is why He would want to have fingers. God only does what God wants to do.

You literally said that God can not have fingers in post 198.

I never said that God did not have the power to set it up differently, but God did not set up differently, and He had His reasons. If God is All-Knowing and All-Wise it is logical to assume God knows the best way to set it up to accomplish His purposes.

Reasons which make no sense and for which no explanation has been given. Occam's Razor suggests a different solution.

 

[Tiberius]

umm you dont seem to understand how far the righteousness of God goes. believe it or not ,there are some things God can not do because of his righteousness

This again does not answer my question.

WHY would it be unrighteous?

 

[Trailblazer]

You literally said that God can not have fingers in post 198.

So what? I can retract whatever I said before. I do not know what God can have, only God knows that.

Reasons which make no sense and for which no explanation has been given. Occam's Razor suggests a different solution.

I gave you reasons and explanations. Sorry they do not make sense to you.
Solution to what? What would Occam's Razor suggest, that God does everything for us so we won't have to make any choices or do anything?

 

[Tiberius]

Nobody can demonstrate that to another person, a person can only demonstrate that to themself.

So then it seems like it's not proof of God, just a subjective opinion of God.

I do not know what God can do, only God knows that.

Didn't stop you from saying what he could and couldn't do before.

The way God does what?

The way God set up the world.

I cannot say why God does anything unless that has been revealed by a Messenger of God. Baha'u'llah explained why God does certain things but not everything. I told you why God wants us to live through this world. The primary reason is so we can to develop spiritual attributes (qualities of character) that we will need in Heaven. But there there are other purposes of this life on Earth. The following articles explain that and they are free to read.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-is-purpose-of-life?
https://bahaiteachings.org/what-is-purpose-lives?

Of course, I reach the conclusion that we don't get these explanations because there is no God and there is nothing to explain...

 

[cataway]

This again does not answer my question.

WHY would it be unrighteous?

he would be acting against what he has all ready decided to do . you have free will. he will not take that away from you . the phrase Indian giver mean any thing to you ? God can not do that . yet that is what he would be doing if he were to snap his fingers to make man do as you suggest

 

[Trailblazer]

So then it seems like it's not proof of God, just a subjective opinion of God.

It is not objective proof because there is no such proof.

"The way God set up the world."

Of course, I reach the conclusion that we don't get these explanations because there is no God and there is nothing to explain...

You are free to hold that opinion even though it is not logical. There are explanations, you just don't like them.

 

[Tiberius]

So what? I can retract whatever I said before. I do not know what God can have, only God knows that.

I'll consider it retracted.

I gave you reasons and explanations. Sorry they do not make sense to you.

The reason was essentially, "Because the book says so."

Solution to what?

To why God doesn't just snap his fingers and make us the way we need to be.

What would Occam's Razor suggest, that God does everything for us so we won't have to make any choices or do anything?

Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation is that the whole thing is just a story.

 

[Tiberius]

he would be acting against what he has all ready decided to do . you have free will. he will not take that away from you . the phrase Indian giver mean any thing to you ? God can not do that . yet that is what he would be doing if he were to snap his fingers to make man do as you suggest

But God, being omnipotent, could do it in such a way that it does not violate our free will.

 

[Tiberius]

It is not objective proof because there is no such proof.

Then it's opinion.

You are free to hold that opinion even though it is not logical. There are explanations, you just don't like them.

I've yet to see you provide a logical support for your position.