Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[Isolde Schulz]

The whole thing about god blocking out people you know and love from your mind so you don't have to think about their suffering just goes to show that the whole concept is evil to begin with... When good things are done, they don't need to be swept under the rug out of sight and out of mind so that we don't have to trouble ourselves with negative thoughts.

Leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.

God as a mere personification has so far itself swept much under the carpet. While glaciers are reducing, the magic carpet must accommodate a burgeoning litany of good deeds gone unpunished.
It seems an inverse principle is at work.

 

[cataway]

But God, being omnipotent, could do it in such a way that it does not violate our free will.

cheat but dont make it look like cheating ? or saying dont get caught ?

 

[Tiberius]

cheat but dont make it look like cheating ? or saying dont get caught ?

He's not cheating if he's the one who makes the rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

The reason was essentially, "Because the book says so."

There is no other way to know anything about God except from the Books revealed by the Messengers of God.

To why God doesn't just snap his fingers and make us the way we need to be.

I already told you, God gave us free will so that we could choose and become what we want to be, be it good or evil.
God made us in His image so we could choose to be good but we can still choose to be evil. God wants us to make that choice because otherwise we would just be robots programmed by God and we would not have any responsibility for our own choices. What then is the point of existing? Do you want to be a programmed robot in Heaven?

Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation is that the whole thing is just a story.

Simple is not always the truth. I prefer the truth to simple even though it is complicated at first, and once you learn the truth it not complicated.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then it's opinion.

No, it's belief.

I've yet to see you provide a logical support for your position.

It is logical to me. YMMV.

 

[Tiberius]

There is no other way to know anything about God except from the Books revealed by the Messengers of God.

Or God can come and appear to everyone. Or he could at least talk to us the same way he talked to his messengers.

I already told you, God gave us free will so that we could choose and become what we want to be, be it good or evil.

And God would know what we would choose without having to wait for us to choose it.

God made us in His image so we could choose to be good but we can still choose to be evil. God wants us to make that choice because otherwise we would just be robots programmed by God and we would not have any responsibility for our own choices. What then is the point of existing? Do you want to be a programmed robot in Heaven?

The Heaven you've described doesn't seem to be much better than this.

Simple is not always the truth. I prefer the truth to simple even though it is complicated at first, and once you learn the truth it not complicated.

I suspect you don't fully understand what Occam's Razor actually is.

It says that we should go with the simplest explanation that actually explains everything. There is nothing you have proposed that can't be explained by saying it's all fictitious and God isn't real.

 

[Tiberius]

No, it's belief.

An opinion you really REALLY think is true.

It is logical to me. YMMV.

The it appears your standards in logic are lacking.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or God can come and appear to everyone. Or he could at least talk to us the same way he talked to his messengers.

God could if God wanted to but God does not want to so He doesn’t. God gave us a res=ason why He doesn’t and Baha’u’llah revealed that in His Writings.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

It is logical that if God exists God does not want to provide that proof because if God is omnipotent God could easily provide that proof.

If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people, means that God could have made all people believers, but if God has pleased, implies that God did not want to make all people into believers, and this verified by the fact that not all men are believers. Rather, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using our own innate intelligence, and then use our free will to make the decision to believe. God also wants us to have faith and believe that He exists without absolute proof.

And God would know what we would choose without having to wait for us to choose it.

That is correct.

The Heaven you've described doesn't seem to be much better than this.

Heaven is a helluva lot better than this earthly life, if one played their cards right.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

I suspect you don't fully understand what Occam's Razor actually is.

It says that we should go with the simplest explanation that actually explains everything. There is nothing you have proposed that can't be explained by saying it's all fictitious and God isn't real.

Atheism does not explain anything.

The Baha’i Faith is the simplest explanation that actually explains everything. Christianity is a lot simpler but it does not explain everything.

 

[Trailblazer]

An opinion you really REALLY think is true.

No, it is a belief I really know is true.

The it appears your standards in logic are lacking.

Sorry, I refuse to go around that block with any more atheists.

 

[Tiberius]

God could if God wanted to but God does not want to so He doesn’t. God gave us a res=ason why He doesn’t and Baha’u’llah revealed that in His Writings.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

It is logical that if God exists God does not want to provide that proof because if God is omnipotent God could easily provide that proof.

If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people, means that God could have made all people believers, but if God has pleased, implies that God did not want to make all people into believers, and this verified by the fact that not all men are believers. Rather, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using our own innate intelligence, and then use our free will to make the decision to believe. God also wants us to have faith and believe that He exists without absolute proof.

Of course, the same could be presented if it was all imaginary and people were trying to explain it.

That is correct.

Then why bother? By your own admission, he doesn't need to conduct the test.

Heaven is a helluva lot better than this earthly life, if one played their cards right.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

You've not yet convinced me that God even exists, let alone that any God is the god of your particular faith.

Atheism does not explain anything.

Please show me one thing that is objectively true about the universe that requires a God to explain it.

 

[Tiberius]

No, it is a belief I really know is true.

People of all beliefs claim that they really know that their faith is true.

 

[cataway]

He's not cheating if he's the one who makes the rules.

changing the rules so that he can always win does not sound like righteousness

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course, the same could be presented if it was all imaginary and people were trying to explain it.

That's right, it could all be a fantasy, but why would Baha'u'llah suffer and sacrifice 40 years of His life for a fantasy, and write 15,000 tablets. He was the son of a nobility so He could have been a minister in the Persian government, a position that was offered to Him. Instead He chose to surrender all His possessions and lived as a prisoner and an exile for 40 years in service to God. This is where logic comes in to play.

Then why bother? By your own admission, he doesn't need to conduct the test.

Yes, God would know what we would choose without having to wait for us to choose it.
It is not a test that God is conducting, it is a test we have to pass for ourselves, to prove ourselves worthy.

You've not yet convinced me that God even exists, let alone that any God is the god of your particular faith.

I am not trying to convince you of anything, as that is not the job God gave me to do.

Please show me one thing that is objectively true about the universe that requires a God to explain it.

There is no such thing. The universe could exist absent a God, but it doesn't. God and the universe have always existed.[/QUOTE]

 

[Trailblazer]

People of all beliefs claim that they really know that their faith is true.

However, logically speaking that does not mean that:
- All the faiths are true, or that
- None of the faiths are true

It could mean that:
- None of the faiths are true, or that
- Only one faith is true, or that
- More than one faith is true, or that
- More than one faith is true but one faith is truer than the others.

 

[Tiberius]

changing the rules so that he can always win does not sound like righteousness

Of course, God would have known what would be needed, so he could have planned to make set up the rules as he knew he would need them.

 

[Tiberius]

That's right, it could all be a fantasy, but why would Baha'u'llah suffer and sacrifice 40 years of His life for a fantasy, and write 15,000 tablets. He was the son of a nobility so He could have been a minister in the Persian government, a position that was offered to Him. Instead He chose to surrender all His possessions and lived as a prisoner and an exile for 40 years in service to God. This is where logic comes in to play.

People have used the same "logic" to prove that Christianity is true.

Yes, God would know what we would choose without having to wait for us to choose it.
It is not a test that God is conducting, it is a test we have to pass for ourselves, to prove ourselves worthy.

To prove ourselves worthy to who?

I am not trying to convince you of anything, as that is not the job God gave me to do.

You seem to be trying to convince me that your claims about God are true.

There is no such thing. The universe could exist absent a God, but it doesn't. God and the universe have always existed.

So the universe could exist without God? It didn't need a God to create it?

 

[Tiberius]

However, logically speaking that does not mean that:
- All the faiths are true, or that
- None of the faiths are true

It could mean that:
- None of the faiths are true, or that
- Only one faith is true, or that
- More than one faith is true, or that
- More than one faith is true but one faith is truer than the others.

That's a lot of IFs you got there.

IF one faith is true. IF that faith is yours. IF your holy text is an accurate account. ETC...

 

[Trailblazer]

People have used the same "logic" to prove that Christianity is true.

That same logic would prove that Jesus was a Messenger of God, but it would not prove that Christianity is true.

To prove ourselves worthy to who?

To ourselves and to God.
Just because God already knows the outcome that does not mean God does not want us to make the outcome a reality.

You seem to be trying to convince me that your claims about God are true.

Funny thing, I hadn't noticed that. I just answer posts that are posted to me, I have no motives.

So the universe could exist without God? It didn't need a God to create it?

Hypothetically yes.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a lot of IFs you got there.

IF one faith is true. IF that faith is yours. IF your holy text is an accurate account. ETC...

Yep, there are certainly a lot of possibilities, although some are more logical than others.

 

[Tiberius]

That same logic would prove that Jesus was a Messenger of God, but it would not prove that Christianity is true.

There are people who were willing to give their lives to preserve their belief that Jesus was the Son of God and that Christianity was true. Why would they be willing to do that unless it was true? John the Baptist, Paul the Apostle, there is a long list.

To ourselves and to God.
Just because God already knows the outcome that does not mean God does not want us to make the outcome a reality.

What difference does it make?

Hypothetically yes.

Then what use is God?