Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[Tiberius]

Yep, there are certainly a lot of possibilities, although some are more logical than others.

You have not demonstrated that your position is logical at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are people who were willing to give their lives to preserve their belief that Jesus was the Son of God and that Christianity was true. Why would they be willing to do that unless it was true? John the Baptist, Paul the Apostle, there is a long list.

Christianity is true but it was truer back in the early days of Christianity, before all the false doctrines were created by the Church.

Then what use is God?

God did not only created the universe but God also rules and maintains it.
God also sends Messengers in every age to guide humanity to the straight path which will ensure eternal life.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have not demonstrated that your position is logical at all.

Would that make any difference? What seems logical to me will not necessarily seem logical to you.

 

[Tiberius]

Christianity is true but it was truer back in the early days of Christianity, before all the false doctrines were created by the Church.

Objectiove facts don't work that way. Are you suggesting that Christianity is not an objective fact?

God did not only created the universe but God also rules and maintains it.

How do you know? You admitted that the universe could have come about without God.

God also sends Messengers in every age to guide humanity to the straight path which will ensure eternal life.

Trouble is sorting out all the people who claim to carry Gods word and finding out which ones are actually telling the truth.

 

[Tiberius]

Would that make any difference? What seems logical to me will not necessarily seem logical to you.

Logic follows certain rules. If it is logical then it will be logical for everyone.

What you are saying here is like saying 1+1=2 is mathematical for some people, but not for others.

 

[Trailblazer]

Objectiove facts don't work that way. Are you suggesting that Christianity is not an objective fact?

Christianity is not an objective fact, it is a religion with beliefs. There are facts associated with Christianity but most of them cannot be verified.

How do you know? You admitted that the universe could have come about without God.

I did not say I know it as a fact. I know it as a belief.

Trouble is sorting out all the people who claim to carry Gods word and finding out which ones are actually telling the truth.

It might be difficult but it is not impossible. I would suggest that you start with a religion that makes sense to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Logic follows certain rules. If it is logical then it will be logical for everyone.

What you are saying here is like saying 1+1=2 is mathematical for some people, but not for others.

Religious beliefs are not subject to the rules of logic since beliefs can never be proven true or false.
But religious beliefs can be logical if they come from clear reasoning.

What it means to be logical?

Logical describes something that comes from clear reasoning. ... The adjective logical is rooted in the Greek word logos, which means "reason, idea, or word." So calling something logical means it's based on reason and sound ideas — in other words, thought out with mathematical precision and removed from emotion.

logical - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

 

[idea]

Religious beliefs are not subject to the rules of logic since beliefs can never be proven true or false.

what about all the religious prophecies that have been proven false?

any data at all? like who statistically lives the longest, or who statistically has the happiest marriages, or who statistically works the hardest / donates the most to charity / earns the most $, or who is happiest etc.? Does any of that data count for anything when considering if a belief is legit?

like people thinking prayer and fasting will keep them healthy or something, but then you look at the data, and no - they are not actually healthier etc.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Religious beliefs are not subject to the rules of logic since beliefs can never be proven true or false."

what about all the religious prophecies that have been proven false?

How can prophecies be proven false? Prophecies are either fulfilled as written or not, but prophecies refer to the future, so the future might not have occurred yet. Also, the meanings of prophecies can be misconstrued, so it might appear as if they have not been fulfilled, but that might be an error on the part of the believers, not an error in the religious scriptures. For example, Christians believe that certain prophecies are about Jesus returning, but if those prophecies were never intended to refer to Jesus, then it is the believers who are wrong, not the scriptures.

On the other hand, if prophecies have been fulfilled and that can be proven then that might constitute proof that religion (a) is true, which would in turn prove that the beliefs of another religion (b) are false. That does not mean that the entire religion (b) is false, only that some of its beliefs are false.

any data at all? like who statistically lives the longest, or who statistically has the happiest marriages, or who statistically works the hardest / donates the most to charity / earns the most $, or who is happiest etc.? Does any of that data count for anything when considering if a belief is legit?

like people thinking prayer and fasting will keep them healthy or something, but then you look at the data, and no - they are not actually healthier etc.

I do not think that proves anything, because that is information about the believers, not information about the religion, so it does not prove the religion is true or false.

 

[Tiberius]

Christianity is not an objective fact, it is a religion with beliefs. There are facts associated with Christianity but most of them cannot be verified.

If they can't be verified, then they are opinions, not facts.

I did not say I know it as a fact. I know it as a belief.

So again, it's an opinion.

It might be difficult but it is not impossible. I would suggest that you start with a religion that makes sense to you.

I find any claims of the supernatural to be nonsensical.

 

[Tiberius]

Religious beliefs are not subject to the rules of logic since beliefs can never be proven true or false.
But religious beliefs can be logical if they come from clear reasoning.

Sounds like this is just a way for you to use logic to support your position when it works in your favor, but still give you an easy way out when logic works against you by saying, "Oh, logic can't really be used in this case."

What it means to be logical?

Logical

describes something that comes from clear reasoning. ... The adjective logical is rooted in the Greek word logos, which means "reason, idea, or word." So calling something logical means it's based on reason and sound ideas — in other words, thought out with mathematical precision and removed from emotion.

logical - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

Of course, you can use a perfectly logical argument and still be wrong. What Is Logical Isn’t Always True

 

[Tiberius]

How can prophecies be proven false? Prophecies are either fulfilled as written or not, but prophecies refer to the future, so the future might not have occurred yet. Also, the meanings of prophecies can be misconstrued, so it might appear as if they have not been fulfilled, but that might be an error on the part of the believers, not an error in the religious scriptures. For example, Christians believe that certain prophecies are about Jesus returning, but if those prophecies were never intended to refer to Jesus, then it is the believers who are wrong, not the scriptures.

On the other hand, if prophecies have been fulfilled and that can be proven then that might constitute proof that religion (a) is true, which would in turn prove that the beliefs of another religion (b) are false. That does not mean that the entire religion (b) is false, only that some of its beliefs are false.

I do not think that proves anything, because that is information about the believers, not information about the religion, so it does not prove the religion is true or false.

How then can we say any prophecies have been fulfilled if there's the possibility that we've misconstrued them? This argument renders prophecies meaningless.

 

[idea]

How can prophecies be proven false? Prophecies are either fulfilled as written or not, but prophecies refer to the future, so the future might not have occurred yet. Also, the meanings of prophecies can be misconstrued, so it might appear as if they have not been fulfilled, but that might be an error on the part of the believers, not an error in the religious scriptures. For example, Christians believe that certain prophecies are about Jesus returning, but if those prophecies were never intended to refer to Jesus, then it is the believers who are wrong, not the scriptures.

On the other hand, if prophecies have been fulfilled and that can be proven then that might constitute proof that religion (a) is true, which would in turn prove that the beliefs of another religion (b) are false. That does not mean that the entire religion (b) is false, only that some of its beliefs are false.

ooook.... I'm just going to leave this here...

I do not think that proves anything, because that is information about the believers, not information about the religion, so it does not prove the religion is true or false.

so... information about the believers has no relationship to what they believe??? like a group of people's health has no relevance to what they believe about diet and exercise... hmmmm.....

 

[Trailblazer]

If they can't be verified, then they are opinions, not facts.

So again, it's an opinion.

They are beliefs, not opinions.

I find any claims of the supernatural to be nonsensical.

That's your choice. I find that some but not all of these claims make sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

How then can we say any prophecies have been fulfilled if there's the possibility that we've misconstrued them? This argument renders prophecies meaningless.

We can say they have been fulfilled if history and geography demonstrate that they have been fulfilled by someone on the ground. That cannot be misconstrued.

 

[Trailblazer]

ooook.... I'm just going to leave this here...

Please explain how I moved the goalposts. I do not even have any goal in mind. You asked "what about all the religious prophecies that have been proven false?" I was just answering your question as best I could.

so... information about the believers has no relationship to what they believe??? like a group of people's health has no relevance to what they believe about diet and exercise... hmmmm.....

It has a relationship but it is not always representative of what the religion teaches since the believers might not be following the teachings of the religion, they might have gone astray. So the way to know what the religion teaches is by looking at the scriptures and what is written about the religion, not by looking at what people in that religion do.

 

[Tiberius]

They are beliefs, not opinions.

Please show me the difference.

That's your choice. I find that some but not all of these claims make sense.

Can you demonstrate how they make sense?

 

[Tiberius]

We can say they have been fulfilled if history and geography demonstrate that they have been fulfilled by someone on the ground. That cannot be misconstrued.

No we can't.

The best you can do is say, "If we interpret the prophecy to mean such-and-such, then we can say that this particular event fulfilled it. But if our interpretation of the prophecy is wrong, then the particular event did not fulfill it."

 

[Trailblazer]

Please show me the difference.

Beliefs by definition are not opinions, they are beliefs. Get a dictionary.

Can you demonstrate how they make sense?

Not unless I know what you want me to demonstrate.

 

[Trailblazer]

No we can't.

The best you can do is say, "If we interpret the prophecy to mean such-and-such, then we can say that this particular event fulfilled it. But if our interpretation of the prophecy is wrong, then the particular event did not fulfill it."

All we have are words and we have to interpret them to mean something. Otherwise the words are pointless.
You can always use that as an excuse as to why a prophecy has not been fulfilled. Been there, done that, seen the movie.

Prophecies were written to mean something that will help us determine who the return of Christ/Messiah was. If you do not want to know the truth that's your choice.