Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[Trailblazer]

So there is no real way to differentiate it from a belief that is entirely wrong, is there?

There is a way to differentiate a true religious belief from a belief that is entirely wrong, it is called reason.

I'm not debating that there are people who believe and/or are held up as messengers/representatives of God.

But just because there is a person who claims to be a messenger of God or is believed to be a messenger of God doesn't mean that God actually sent them.

Of course it does not mean that since claims are not proof of anything. Evidence is necessary to support claims.

Then I have two questions:

1. How do you know such interactions take place?
2. How can these interactions do anything if they are so small as to be undetectable?

I know because I believe that God is the ruler and maintainer of the universe, so God must interact with this world in some way. I said they were undetectable, I did not say they were small. We cannot detect them because we cannot see God doing anything.

 

[Tiberius]

There is a way to differentiate a true religious belief from a belief that is entirely wrong, it is called reason.

Except you have never presented any reasonable argument why any religious belief is correct.

Of course it does not mean that since claims are not proof of anything. Evidence is necessary to support claims.

And you haven't presented any evidence at all.

And no, citing passages from a particular holy text is not presenting evidence.

I know because I believe that God is the ruler and maintainer of the universe, so God must interact with this world in some way. I said they were undetectable, I did not say they were small. We cannot detect them because we cannot see God doing anything.

Your opinion that God works in that particular way does not make it a fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except you have never presented any reasonable argument why any religious belief is correct.

Because you never asked me to, but even if I did you would probably say it is not reasonable.

And you haven't presented any evidence at all.

Because you never asked me to, but even if I did you would probably say it is not evidence.

And no, citing passages from a particular holy text is not presenting evidence.

Of course not. What would you consider evidence for a religion being true?

Your opinion that God works in that particular way does not make it a fact.

Of course it is not a fact, it is a belief.

 

[Tiberius]

Because you never asked me to, but even if I did you would probably say it is not reasonable.

I will accept it as reasonable if it has no logical fallacies.

Because you never asked me to, but even if I did you would probably say it is not evidence.

I will accept it as evidence if it can be tested and it passes that test.

Of course not. What would you consider evidence for a religion being true?

Well, for example, the Bible says that people can pray for a mountain to move, and the mountain WILL move. If that actually happened, I will accept that as evidence that Christianity is correct.

Of course it is not a fact, it is a belief.

And if it's not a fact, you can't KNOW it, can you? You can just believe it really strongly. And a strong belief is not the same thing as knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

I will accept it as reasonable if it has no logical fallacies.

"reasonable argument why any religious belief is correct"

There is no logical argument that can prove a religious belief is correct, there is only evidence indicating it could be true.

I will accept it as evidence if it can be tested and it passes that test.

It won't pass your test.

Well, for example, the Bible says that people can pray for a mountain to move, and the mountain WILL move. If that actually happened, I will accept that as evidence that Christianity is correct.

That is pretty absurd because Jesus never meant that literally a mountain would move. I can already see we are not going to get anywhere with this.

And if it's not a fact, you can't KNOW it, can you? You can just believe it really strongly. And a strong belief is not the same thing as knowing.

No, it isn't, but I am rational enough t know that it is impossible to know it as a fact so I don't expect to be able to know it that way.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd agree to a degree, but even aside from the fact that we'd need an infinite number of prophecies to really be sure, there are numerous other problems with prophecies that leave them practically worthless.

The other thing is that unless we have someone to apply those prophecies to they are not going to help determine anything. We have to look at two things: (1) what the prophecy says and (2) what the person we believe fulfilled it did to fulfill it. I can give you some examples if you want them.

Here's the other problems with prophecies.

Let's say we have a text written in year 500 that includes a prophecy from Bill that says "The castle will burn down on the summer solstice." And then we have a text from the year 600 that says the castle burned down on the summer solstice. So we can say that Bill really was a prophet, since he made a prophecy that later came true. But there are always other explanations.

· Maybe the castle didn't burn down, and someone just wrote that it did to make it look like the prophecy came true.

· Maybe the castle did burn down, but after it burned down someone went in and added the prophecy bit in the first text.

· Maybe the prophecy was real and the castle really did burn down, but only because someone read the prophecy and decided to burn the castle down to make the prophecy come true.

And that's assuming that we have a non-vague prophecy in the first place.

So if you can give me some examples that take into account all of these issues, I'd like to see them. That is, prophecies that meet the following criteria:

1. Numerous prophecies about the same thing (as mentioned in the part of your post that I didn't quote here)

There are numerous prophecies about the event (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah)

2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.

All these prophecies were written prior to the event (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah)

3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.

We can verify that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.

4. The fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.

I assume you mean deliberately fulfilling the prophecy in order to make it look like the claimant was the return of Christ/ the Messiah; so it would have to be a prophecy that was not subject to such a planned fulfillment.

5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

All prophecies are open to interpretation even if they are specific. That is why it is important to read the prophecy in context of the chapter and why it is also important to look at what other prophecies were fulfilled by the person who fulfilled this prophecy.

I would love to see some examples of this.

Below is one example of a prophecy that meets your criteria. There are many more but this is one to start with.

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night


Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

 

[Tiberius]

"reasonable argument why any religious belief is correct"

There is no logical argument that can prove a religious belief is correct, there is only evidence indicating it could be true.

And as I've said, all such evidence fails.

It won't pass your test.

Then it's not evidence. It's hearsay, or myth, or something similar.

That is pretty absurd because Jesus never meant that literally a mountain would move. I can already see we are not going to get anywhere with this.

There are lots of similar examples. That believers could handle venomous snakes and not die, for example. The mountain one is not the only example.

No, it isn't, but I am rational enough t know that it is impossible to know it as a fact so I don't expect to be able to know it that way.

At least we are agreed that you don't actually know it.

 

[Tiberius]

1. Numerous prophecies about the same thing (as mentioned in the part of your post that I didn't quote here)

There are numerous prophecies about the event (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah)

And since you do not show them, we can't even be sure they describe the same thing.

2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.

All these prophecies were written prior to the event (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah)

This does not answer the question. How have you verified they were written before the event?

3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.

We can verify that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.

I ask you to show me how it was verified, and you just assure me that it was verified. Again, this is not answering my question, and your word is nowhere near good enough for me to just accept it because you say it's true.

4. The fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.

I assume you mean deliberately fulfilling the prophecy in order to make it look like the claimant was the return of Christ/ the Messiah; so it would have to be a prophecy that was not subject to such a planned fulfillment.

Again, this doesn't come close to addressing my point.

5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

All prophecies are open to interpretation even if they are specific. That is why it is important to read the prophecy in context of the chapter and why it is also important to look at what other prophecies were fulfilled by the person who fulfilled this prophecy.

It is possible to write things that are clear and unambiguous. If someone writes a prophecy that Tiberius will go to his local shops at midday on the autumnal equinox in 2021, please tell me how that can be interpreted to mean something else.

Below is one example of a prophecy that meets your criteria. There are many more but this is one to start with.

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night


Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

That's not specific though, is it? It says he comes from Assyria and goes to lots of places including cities, rivers and mountains. Was he the first person to do this? There were likely many who did it before him, and many after.

Of course, if you can show how this can not possibly apply to any other person, go right ahead.

 

[cataway]

How do you know I am dead?

as in not dead !
Baha'u'llah died as all men have died . Jesus can and will resurrect even him . so you seem to think Baha'u'llah was resurrected ,changed as Jesus was ,(even as all the apostles were) .maybe he was maybe not . even so you represent a man that has taken a fallowing after him self ,not directing it to the proper place .a similar thing was happing
1 Corinthians 1: "11 For some from the house of Chloʹe have informed me regarding you, my brothers, that there are dissensions among you. 12 What I mean is this, that each one of you says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·polʹlos,” “But I to Ceʹphas,” “But I to Christ.” 13 Is the Christ divided? Paul was not executed on the stake for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crisʹpus and Gaʹius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephʹa·nas. As for the rest, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else. 17 For Christ sent me, not to baptize, but to declare the good news; and not with wisdom of speech, so that the torture stake of the Christ should not be made useless."

i see you have fallen into that same trap.

 

[Trailblazer]

“There are numerous prophecies about the event (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah)”

And since you do not show them, we can't even be sure they describe the same thing.

Am I supposed to list all the prophecies in the Old Testament that refer to the (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah? Do you know how many hundreds of prophecies there are?

Even if I did list them all how would you know that they refer to the same thing?

“All these prophecies were written prior to the event (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah)”

This does not answer the question. How have you verified they were written before the event?

I know that were written before the event because the Old Testament was written thousands of years ago and the event occurred in 1852 AD.

“We can verify that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.”

I ask you to show me how it was verified, and you just assure me that it was verified. Again, this is not answering my question, and your word is nowhere near good enough for me to just accept it because you say it's true.

The only way to know if it can be verified is to go to the source and verify it for yourself.

It can be verified by recorded history but I am not going to do your homework for you and cite the sources. If people really care about knowing the truth about God and Baha’u’llah the information is readily available to research in the internet. Before the internet it was not this easy, one had to go looking for books to read.

“I assume you mean deliberately fulfilling the prophecy in order to make it look like the claimant was the return of Christ/ the Messiah; so it would have to be a prophecy that was not subject to such a planned fulfillment.”

Again, this doesn't come close to addressing my point.

If you knew anything about prophecies and how they were written and how they were fulfilled you would not even ask such a ridiculous question. It is completely illogical to think that any man would or even could fulfill all the Bible prophecies in an effort to deceive people. This is utterly ludicrous. Certain things happen that fulfill the prophecies over which the man who fulfills them had absolutely no control, so how could he do something to make the prophecy come true? This is logically impossible. Here are a few examples of prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah so you can see that He had nothing to do with the fulfillment.

Isaiah 2

Isaiah 53

“All prophecies are open to interpretation even if they are specific. That is why it is important to read the prophecy in context of the chapter and why it is also important to look at what other prophecies were fulfilled by the person who fulfilled this prophecy.”

It is possible to write things that are clear and unambiguous. If someone writes a prophecy that Tiberius will go to his local shops at midday on the autumnal equinox in 2021, please tell me how that can be interpreted to mean something else.

The caveat is that most of the Old Testament prophecies were not written to be clear and unambiguous so it does not matter if it is possible. You have no control over how they were written since you did not write them. Do you even want to know why they were written the way they were written rather than they way you wish they were written?

That's not specific though, is it? It says he comes from Assyria and goes to lots of places including cities, rivers and mountains. Was he the first person to do this? There were likely many who did it before him, and many after.

Of course, if you can show how this can not possibly apply to any other person, go right ahead.

It is not specific enough for you because you do not know the history of the Baha'i Faith and you do not know the context of the chapter and you have not looked at any other prophecies in the Old Testament.

No, logically speaking, it cannot apply to anyone else unless they fulfilled all the OTHER prophecies. It does not matter if other men traveled this same route. He was not only the first person but the only person who traveled this route and also fulfilled all the other prophecies, and many of those prophecies tie in with this prophecy. For example, part of Micah 7:12 is related to Isaiah 53:8.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel.

 

[Trailblazer]

as in not dead !
Baha'u'llah died as all men have died.

Jesus died as all men have died. Then men wrote stories about how Jesus rose from the dead, but stories are not proof of anything except that men can write stories. The point is that there is absolutely no verifiable evidence that Jesus ever rose from the dead so there is no reason why any rational person would believe it. Indeed, there are many Christians who have finally rejected such a belief.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Jesus can and will resurrect even him . so you seem to think Baha'u'llah was resurrected ,changed as Jesus was ,(even as all the apostles were) .maybe he was maybe not . even so you represent a man that has taken a fallowing after him self ,not directing it to the proper place .a similar thing was happing

Jesus never resurrected anyone, that is just a belief that has no basis in reality.

I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was resurrected and changed into Jesus. I believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit in another human body. Briefly, the Christ Spirit was made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and appeared on earth in the form of a human being. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God, and then He was born in a human body.

 

[cataway]

"The point is that there is absolutely no verifiable evidence that Jesus ever rose from the dead so there is no reason why any rational person would believe it"
if Jesus did not ,then it also stands to reason that Baha’u’llah does not have a chance of EVER making it to heaven . thats how important it is to recognize Jesus as the son of God . so did Baha’u’llah except Jesus as the Christ ?

 

[Trailblazer]

"The point is that there is absolutely no verifiable evidence that Jesus ever rose from the dead so there is no reason why any rational person would believe it"
if Jesus did not ,then it also stands to reason that Baha’u’llah does not have a chance of EVER making it to heaven . thats how important it is to recognize Jesus as the son of God . so did Baha’u’llah except Jesus as the Christ ?

Belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with making it to heaven. It is belief in Jesus that bestows eternal life.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus as the “Spirit of God” and as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost.” The following passage represents the Baha'i position and thus what Baha'u'llah taught:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.”

The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110

 

[cataway]

Belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with making it to heaven. It is belief in Jesus that bestows eternal life.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus as the “Spirit of God” and as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost.” The following passage represents the Baha'i position and thus what Baha'u'llah taught:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.”

The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110

"“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged"
and yet you deny to be called Christion ,
1 Corinthians 1: "11 For some from the house of Chloʹe have informed me regarding you, my brothers, that there are dissensions among you. 12 What I mean is this, that each one of you says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·polʹlos,” “But I to Ceʹphas,” But I to Baha'u'llah“ But I to Christ.” 13 Is the Christ divided?"
But I to Baha'u'llah?? humm ,what's the difference ? why is it any different?

 

[Trailblazer]

"“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged"
and yet you deny to be called Christion ,
1 Corinthians 1: "11 For some from the house of Chloʹe have informed me regarding you, my brothers, that there are dissensions among you. 12 What I mean is this, that each one of you says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·polʹlos,” “But I to Ceʹphas,” But I to Baha'u'llah“ But I to Christ.” 13 Is the Christ divided?"
But I to Baha'u'llah?? humm ,what's the difference ? why is it any different?

The difference is that Baha'is believe in both Christ and Baha'u'llah, and since we believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, we believe that rejecting Baha'u'llah is like rejecting Christ.

Please bear in mind that those verses were written before Baha'u'llah came.

 

[Tiberius]

A refresher: In post 266 I said that any reliable prophecy must meet five criteria:

1. Numerous prophecies about the same thing
2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

Am I supposed to list all the prophecies in the Old Testament that refer to the (return of Christ/coming of the Messiah? Do you know how many hundreds of prophecies there are?

You're the one who claimed they all speak of the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah. It's not my problem if it's a lot of work for you to support your own position. If you can't/won't do it, then your claims fail point 1.

Even if I did list them all how would you know that they refer to the same thing?

Are you suggesting that they would not be clear? If so, then they've already failed Point five.

I know that were written before the event because the Old Testament was written thousands of years ago and the event occurred in 1852 AD.

So? I have things I wrote 20 years ago. Do you think I am incapable of going and writing something on them today?

I could write a prophecy about the 9/11 attacks on a piece of paper that I wrote in school back in 1996, and then say, "I wrote this in 1996 and it clearly mentions the 9/11 attacks. Therefore I am a prophet!" Do you see the flaw there?

Your argument here fails point 2, since you have not verified that the prophecy part was written before the fulfilling event. You just assume it was because the rest of the text was.

The only way to know if it can be verified is to go to the source and verify it for yourself.

Or perhaps find another source, pre-fulfilling event, that mentions the prophecy?

Sticking with my above example, you could find a note written in 1996 from a classmate that says, "Oh, that Tiberius has been talking about how the World Trade Centers will be attacked with planes..."

It can be verified by recorded history but I am not going to do your homework for you and cite the sources. If people really care about knowing the truth about God and Baha’u’llah the information is readily available to research in the internet. Before the internet it was not this easy, one had to go looking for books to read.

I'm not doing your homework for you. The burden of proof is on your shoulders.

If you knew anything about prophecies and how they were written and how they were fulfilled you would not even ask such a ridiculous question. It is completely illogical to think that any man would or even could fulfill all the Bible prophecies in an effort to deceive people. This is utterly ludicrous. Certain things happen that fulfill the prophecies over which the man who fulfills them had absolutely no control, so how could he do something to make the prophecy come true? This is logically impossible. Here are a few examples of prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah so you can see that He had nothing to do with the fulfillment.

And where did I say that ALL prophecies failed on Point 4? I didn't. Try again.

The caveat is that most of the Old Testament prophecies were not written to be clear and unambiguous so it does not matter if it is possible. You have no control over how they were written since you did not write them. Do you even want to know why they were written the way they were written rather than they way you wish they were written?

Doesn't matter why they were written like that. The fact remains that they WERE written like that, so they fail on point 5.

It is not specific enough for you because you do not know the history of the Baha'i Faith and you do not know the context of the chapter and you have not looked at any other prophecies in the Old Testament.

If the prophecy can't stand on its own, then it fails point 5.

No, logically speaking, it cannot apply to anyone else unless they fulfilled all the OTHER prophecies. It does not matter if other men traveled this same route. He was not only the first person but the only person who traveled this route and also fulfilled all the other prophecies, and many of those prophecies tie in with this prophecy. For example, part of Micah 7:12 is related to Isaiah 53:8.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel.

And he was the only person who was in prison and all that?

 

[Trailblazer]

A refresher: In post 266 I said that any reliable prophecy must meet five criteria:

1. Numerous prophecies about the same thing
2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
4. The fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

“any reliable prophecy must meet five criteria”

I don’t care what you consider reliable because you cannot set the standards for how God communicates to prophets who write prophecies. Many years ago, I made a decision that I would no longer be led around by the nose by atheists who think they can set standards for God. Nothing could be more illogical given God is All-Knowing and infallible and you are not All-Knowing, you are just a fallible human being. Why don’t you send God a note and tell Him He did not meet your criteria for reliable prophecies? Do you know why they do not meet your criteria? Because God does not want them to, and God is All-Powerful so you have nothing to say in the matter.

You're the one who claimed they all speak of the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah. It's not my problem if it's a lot of work for you to support your own position. If you can't/won't do it, then your claims fail point 1.

No they don’t fail just because I cannot list hundreds of prophecies in a post on a forum. Apparently you have a serious problem with logical reasoning. Numerous prophecies about the same thing still exist even if I won’t/can’t list them because (a) it is not my responsibility to do that and (b) I could never list them all in a post.

Here let me help you with your logic. If I say that I have a new car but I can’t bring it over to show you because I don’t have time right now, that does not mean I do not have a new car. The car still exists even if I cannot show it to you. Likewise, the prophecies still exist even though I cannot post them all on a public forum.

You can go and look at them for yourself.
The prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are listed in this book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Are you suggesting that they would not be clear? If so, then they've already failed Point five.

Who cares if prophecies don’t meet your criteria? Who do you think you are to set standards for how scriptures are to be written?
I cannot even imagine anything more arrogant than that.

So? I have things I wrote 20 years ago. Do you think I am incapable of going and writing something on them today?

Who cares what you wrote? How is that comparable to a prophet of the Old Testament writing prophecies that predict the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah? It is completely irrelevant.

Your argument here fails point 2, since you have not verified that the prophecy part was written before the fulfilling event. You just assume it was because the rest of the text was.

I absolutely did. You are either seriously lacking in intelligence or you are playing games.

2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.

The prophecy was written:

The Old Testament is the original Hebrew Bible, the sacred scriptures of the Jewish faith, written at different times between about 1200 and 165 BC. The New Testament books were written by Christians in the first century AD.Jul 12, 2011

Religions - Christianity: The Bible - BBC

The event that fulfilled it:

Bahá'u'lláh arrived in Akka in August 1868, so fulfilling prophecies made by Muhammad, and by Jewish prophets, about the importance of the city. Sep 28, 2009

Religions - Bahai: Bahá'u'lláh - BBC

I'm not doing your homework for you. The burden of proof is on your shoulders.

I have no burden of proof because I am not trying to prove anything to you. The burden is squarely on your shoulders if you want to know the truth about God and Baha’u’llah. I already know the truth because I already did my homework.

And where did I say that ALL prophecies failed on Point 4? I didn't. Try again.

I did not say that you said that. I just said the prophecies did not fail on Point 4 and I explained why.

Doesn't matter why they were written like that. The fact remains that they WERE written like that, so they fail on point 5.

Who cares if prophecies don’t meet your criteria? Who do you think you are to set standards for how scriptures are to be written?
I cannot even imagine anything more arrogant than that.

If the prophecy can't stand on its own, then it fails point 5.

Who cares if prophecies don’t meet your criteria? Who do you think you are to set standards for how scriptures are to be written?
I cannot even imagine anything more arrogant than that.

And he was the only person who was in prison and all that?

Yes, Baha’u’llah was the only person who was taken from prison and from judgment and also fulfilled the rest of the prophecies.

I have made myself perfectly clear so I see no point going over any of these points again. Let me know if you are serious about knowing the truth. Otherwise I am done because I do not have time to play games.

 

[cataway]

The difference is that Baha'is believe in both Christ and Baha'u'llah, and since we believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, we believe that rejecting Baha'u'llah is like rejecting Christ.

Please bear in mind that those verses were written before Baha'u'llah came.

if the Baha'is believe in Christ they would be know as Christion. i have checked and they deny being Christion .
there was a time when the people now known as the JW's were called ,note ''called'' , Russellits .it was not a name that they developed nor adopted. they were called that because they were perceived to be following a man . you would be hard pressed to find any that honor that man to the point of putting him on a pedestal, there is no shrine to the man. thats not true of those that are called them selves Baha'is. is it ?

 

[Trailblazer]

if the Baha'is believe in Christ they would be know as Christion. i have checked and they deny being Christion .
there was a time when the people now known as the JW's were called ,note ''called'' , Russellits .it was not a name that they developed nor adopted. they were called that because they were perceived to be following a man . you would be hard pressed to find any that honor that man to the point of putting him on a pedestal, there is no shrine to the man. thats not true of those that are called them selves Baha'is. is it ?

We are called Baha'is because we are followers of Baha'u'llah just as Christians are called Christians because they follow Christ. However, in order to be a Baha'i we are required to believe in Christ, so it is a given that every Baha'i believes in Christ.

I am not sure what you are asking but Baha'is do not put Baha'u'llah on a pedestal and we do not worship Him, we worship only God. However, Christians put Jesus on a pedestal and worship Him as if He was God, even though Jesus said not to do so.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

 

[cataway]

We are called Baha'is because we are followers of Baha'u'llah just as Christians are called Christians because they follow Christ. However, in order to be a Baha'i we are required to believe in Christ, so it is a given that every Baha'i believes in Christ.

I am not sure what you are asking but Baha'is do not put Baha'u'llah on a pedestal and we do not worship Him, we worship only God. However, Christians put Jesus on a pedestal and worship Him as if He was God, even though Jesus said not to do so.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

actually
Christian means little Christ its a
distinction used by the Romans some what close to two thousand years ago. it was coined and stuck . you are not little christ's ?