Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[Trailblazer]

You really don't see it's more probable that they would build a temple on a well established bit of land which is already very important for several religions?

REALLY?

Sorry, I forgot to include the following fulfilled prophecy in my last post. Below is a photo of the Universal House of Justice at the Baha'i World Centre on the top of Mount Carmel. People of all nations flow into it.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days that the mountain of the Lord’S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.

 

[Tiberius]

Inner certitude, some of which comes from God, who guides those who make an effort and want to be guided.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

In other words, just believing something really really hard until you are convinced it's true.

Doesn't make it true.

Yes. That is what I meant.

So you retract your claim that understanding how the prophecy was fulfilled entails going outside the prophecy.

No, that is not want I said. It is the same verse but a different translation. If a person reads the translation that says dragons they will probably not know what it means because dragons makes no sense in the context of the verse, so a logical personwould look at other translations, most of which say jackals. Out of many different translations, only a few says dragons so we can assume that is a bad translation.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 35:8

Ah, so you are using your own subjective interpretation.

I do not assume it, I believe it.

You may believe it, but it's still an assumption.

No, and I never said that facts and beliefs are the same thing.

Please show me one FACT - not belief - that I have disputed.

They could say it but the hundred-dollar difference is that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah applies to the age (dispensation) in which we are living whereas their ancient religions have seen their day and no longer apply.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

Okay, you go tell them their ancient religions no longer apply. Let's see how many you are able to convince.

Again, you miss my points.

a) You do not KNOW what was probably going to happen anyway, so that is only a subjective opinion.
b) If it happened the way the prophecy was written then it fulfilled the prophecy.

I hereby make a prophecy that there will be a sunrise at your location within 24 hours.

Let's see if it really happens. If it does, I expect you to refer to me as Prophet Tiberius.

You can be sure if you have someone who fulfilled the prophecy exactly as it was written.

All you have is someone who fulfills your interpretation of the prophecy.

No, I know exactly what it means.

Then please define it.

No, it is not probable at all that the temple and all the other buildings were built exactly as the prophecies say will happen, then there is no logical reason to think someone went to all that trouble and expense to fool people into believing that the prophecy was fulfilled. Then of course we have all the other prophecies that describe what will be seen on Mount Carmel that also fulfill the prophecies.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Yeah, it's HIGHLY unlikely that anyone would build a temple in a location that has been an important site for several religions for many centuries. What are the chances of that really? *Rolls eyes*

The prophecies I believe fulfilled the Coming of Baha’u’llah pass all of your criteria because they:

1. Were not something that was probably going to happen anyway

I think it's quite likely that a religious temple would be built in a location that had long been important for many different religions.

If you think it's UNLIKELY, please tell me why.

2. Could not have been added to an older text after the alleged fulfilling event

Accepted.

3. Were not based on a fulfilling event which either did not happen the way the prophecy described it as happening, or even at all

I'm dubious, but I'll accept this for the moment.

4. Were not fulfilled because someone read the prophecy and then decided to go and fulfill it just to make the prophecy appear legitimate

I'm not buying this. It's perfectly plausible that whoever decided to builf the temple there had said, "You know, there's a prophecy that says there will be a temple there, and that's actually a pretty good spot, so I think we should do it."

5. Could not mean anything because the language it is written in is so vague

Not buying it. The prophecies don't actually give much in the way of detail, so it's not that hard to fit them into other things. And given that there are plenty of people out there who claim your interpretation of the prophecy is wrong, there's no way your going to convince me that it's unambiguous.

It was likely to happen that Christ would return eventually because there are so many Bible prophecies that say Christ will return, but nobody knew WHEN it would happen, HOW it would happen, so what actually happened is not anything anyone would have expected. In other words, the precise details surrounding the return of Christ were not “likely to happen anyway.”

Matthew 24

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of f]">[f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Of course, that argument only applies if you already believe the Bible.

Your argument is nothing more than, "If the source is correct, then the source is correct."

 

[Trailblazer]

In other words, just believing something really really hard until you are convinced it's true.

No, that is not what I said. I said that if we make an effort to believe in God, God will guide us.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

Doesn't make it true.

I never said that it did.

So you retract your claim that understanding how the prophecy was fulfilled entails going outside the prophecy.

I never made such a claim. If course you have to go outside of it to SEE how it was fulfilled and by whom.

Ah, so you are using your own subjective interpretation.

No, I am using my reason.

You may believe it, but it's still an assumption.

No, it is a belief I know is true.

Please show me one FACT - not belief - that I have disputed.

I never said you disputed any facts. If I showed you facts about Baha’u’llah would you dispute them?

Okay, you go tell them their ancient religions no longer apply. Let's see how many you are able to convince.

I am not trying to convince anyone, but that was not my point. I think I already told you they are not going to relinquish their ancient religions, no matter what. They do not even CARE if the Baha’i Faith is true, all they care about is their ancient religions.

I hereby make a prophecy that there will be a sunrise at your location within 24 hours.

Getting cute will not help your case. Nothing that happened when Baha'u'llah appeared was likely to happen ANYWAY so His Revelation passes point #1.

Let's see if it really happens. If it does, I expect you to refer to me as Prophet Tiberius.

Nope, not unless you fulfill all the Old Testament prophecies and pass points 1-5.

All you have is someone who fulfills your interpretation of the prophecy.

All anyone ever has is THEIR interpretation of the prophecy but I am willing to look at other people’s interpretations if they have a claimant they believe fulfilled the prophecy.

Then please define it.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man `unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him `unclean. '" Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

Bible Gateway Matthew 15 :: NIV - MIT

Yeah, it's HIGHLY unlikely that anyone would build a temple in a location that has been an important site for several religions for many centuries. What are the chances of that really? *Rolls eyes*

If you think they would spend millions of dollars building temples and buildings to feign fulfilling a few Bible prophecies you are so illogical there is no more I can say. ROLL EYES If there was no true religion to go with the buildings they would not be there.

Not only that, but you do not KNOW anything about how the Baha’i World Centre came to be built on Mount Carmel. All you care about are your criteria but you do not even know how to apply your own criteria. The Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel because that is where Baha’u’llah came to and pitched His tent and wrote His tablets, thus fulfilling the Bible prophecies… You cannot win this one so I suggest you quit trying, because you only make yourself look foolish.

Apparently, you do not give a rip about knowing the truth, all you care about is “winning” an argument.

1. Were not something that was probably going to happen anyway

I think it's quite likely that a religious temple would be built in a location that had long been important for many different religions.

If you think it's UNLIKELY, please tell me why.

Maybe it was likely because it is in the Holy Land, ever thought of that? Where else would they build it, in Hawaii or the middle of Africa? Get real.

You just stuck your foot in your mouth, because the FACT that it was likely to be built in the Holy Land means it is likely to be a true religion that built it. Did the People’s Temple get built in the Holy Land?

Where was the peoples temple located?

San Francisco

The Peoples Temple, the new religious movement which came to be known for the mass killings at Jonestown, was headquartered in San Francisco, California, United States from the early to mid-1970s until the Temple's move to Guyana in 1977.

Peoples Temple in San Francisco - Wikipedia

I rest my case and thanks for helping me make a case for the Baha’i Faith being a true religion. I owe you one.

2. Could not have been added to an older text after the alleged fulfilling event

Accepted.

3. Were not based on a fulfilling event which either did not happen the way the prophecy described it as happening, or even at all

I'm dubious, but I'll accept this for the moment.

Thank God for small favors.

4. Were not fulfilled because someone read the prophecy and then decided to go and fulfill it just to make the prophecy appear legitimate

I'm not buying this. It's perfectly plausible that whoever decided to builf the temple there had said, "You know, there's a prophecy that says there will be a temple there, and that's actually a pretty good spot, so I think we should do it."

1. The Baha’i World Centre came to be built on Mount Carmel. All you care about are your criteria but you do not even know how to apply your own criteria. The Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel because that is where Baha’u’llah came to and pitched His tent and wrote His tablets, thus fulfilling the Bible prophecies…

2. The Baha’i World Centre was likely to be built in the Holy Land means it is likely to be a true religion that built it. Did the People’s Temple get built in the Holy Land?

3. You speak from ignorance of WHY it was built there so you are committing the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

5. Could not mean anything because the language it is written in is so vague

Not buying it. The prophecies don't actually give much in the way of detail, so it's not that hard to fit them into other things.

Some of the prophecies are very detailed and there are enough of them that are detailed in order to know that they could FIT only one person, and that person was Baha’u’llah.

And given that there are plenty of people out there who claim your interpretation of the prophecy is wrong, there's no way your going to convince me that it's unambiguous.

When you said “there are plenty of people out there who claim…” you just committed another fallacy, called the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious. So even if only the Baha’is know the correct interpretations of the prophecies, that does not mean they are wrong.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The one million dollar question is if they can prove their interpretations are right. They can’t do that because they don’t have the other side of the coin, because they do not have anything outside the prophecy to prove they are right, because they do not have a MAN who fulfilled the prophecy. All the Jews and Christians have is a false hope that their Messiah will come someday and that he will be as they imagined Him to be. Lol.

Of course, that argument only applies if you already believe the Bible.

Your argument is nothing more than, "If the source is correct, then the source is correct."

If you do not believe the Bible, then there is no point even discussing this at all, because the entire discussion is predicated upon the Bible prophecies being correct.

NO, "If the source is correct, then the source is correct." is not my argument. My argument is if the source is correct and if Baha’u’llah did what the source says (or it happened as the result of His actions) then the prophecies in the source (Bible) were fulfilled by Him.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is not what I said. I said that if we make an effort to believe in God, God will guide us.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

That's assuming God exists.

I could easily say that if you believe in Thor, then Thor will guide you. I may even be utterly convinced that Thor is guiding me. But that doesn't make Thor real.

I never made such a claim. If course you have to go outside of it to SEE how it was fulfilled and by whom.

And I said, "The event that fulfills it is part of the prophecy's life cycle, as it were." A statement that you agreed with. So no, you DON'T have to go outside the prophecy's life cycle.

No, I am using my reason.

If your particular interpretation can be shown to be true through the use of reason, then why did the other translations say "Dragon" instead of "Jackal"?

No, it is a belief I know is true.

No. You may be convinced it is true, but KNOWING is a different thing.

I never said you disputed any facts. If I showed you facts about Baha’u’llah would you dispute them?

You're drifting off topic here. The issue is that beliefs and facts are not the same thing.

I am not trying to convince anyone, but that was not my point. I think I already told you they are not going to relinquish their ancient religions, no matter what. They do not even CARE if the Baha’i Faith is true, all they care about is their ancient religions.

Yeah, and that unwavering insistence that their beliefs are true no matter what isn't something you'd ever have, is it?

Getting cute will not help your case. Nothing that happened when Baha'u'llah appeared was likely to happen ANYWAY so His Revelation passes point #1.

I've already explained how it was likely. So it fails. Since you have disputed point 1 several times, however, you should accept that I am a prophet, since I'm sure that there has been a sunrise at your location.

Nope, not unless you fulfill all the Old Testament prophecies and pass points 1-5.

Are they required for being a prophet?

All anyone ever has is THEIR interpretation of the prophecy but I am willing to look at other people’s interpretations if they have a claimant they believe fulfilled the prophecy.

And I bet you'll reject it if it requires you give up your current beliefs.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man `unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him `unclean. '" Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

Bible Gateway Matthew 15 :: NIV - MIT

So how have you verified that no one who has walked the highway has been guilty of evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander?

If you think they would spend millions of dollars building temples and buildings to feign fulfilling a few Bible prophecies you are so illogical there is no more I can say. ROLL EYES If there was no true religion to go with the buildings they would not be there.

By that logic I can point to any temple and say that there's no reason why they should build this temple if the religion was not true, so that proves it!

Not only that, but you do not KNOW anything about how the Baha’i World Centre came to be built on Mount Carmel. All you care about are your criteria but you do not even know how to apply your own criteria. The Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel because that is where Baha’u’llah came to and pitched His tent and wrote His tablets, thus fulfilling the Bible prophecies… You cannot win this one so I suggest you quit trying, because you only make yourself look foolish.

You appear to be getting upset again.

Apparently, you do not give a rip about knowing the truth, all you care about is “winning” an argument.

You can't explain why my points are unreasonable, yet you claim that they are. And you can't explain how your prophecies pass my points, yet you claim that they do.

Maybe it was likely because it is in the Holy Land, ever thought of that? Where else would they build it, in Hawaii or the middle of Africa? Get real.

Well, if the prophecy said it would be built in Hawai'i, then I'd certainly count that as being unlikely, and so it would pass Point 1, wouldn't it?

You just stuck your foot in your mouth, because the FACT that it was likely to be built in the Holy Land means it is likely to be a true religion that built it. Did the People’s Temple get built in the Holy Land?

lol, do you hear your claims? You think the Holy Land has increased chance of making it correct just because of its location?

Where was the peoples temple located?

San Francisco

The Peoples Temple, the new religious movement which came to be known for the mass killings at Jonestown, was headquartered in San Francisco, California, United States from the early to mid-1970s until the Temple's move to Guyana in 1977.

Peoples Temple in San Francisco - Wikipedia

I rest my case and thanks for helping me make a case for the Baha’i Faith being a true religion. I owe you one.

lol, whatever. You have proved nothing.

1. The Baha’i World Centre came to be built on Mount Carmel. All you care about are your criteria but you do not even know how to apply your own criteria. The Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel because that is where Baha’u’llah came to and pitched His tent and wrote His tablets, thus fulfilling the Bible prophecies…

How convenient for you.

2. The Baha’i World Centre was likely to be built in the Holy Land means it is likely to be a true religion that built it. Did the People’s Temple get built in the Holy Land?

And True Religions always get built in that part of the world, don't they? God, who can make it anywhere, has some fascination with that poart of the world, which has nothing to do with the fact that human civilisation flourished there for thousands of years and that was therefore where religious beliefs were more likely to take hold...

Some of the prophecies are very detailed and there are enough of them that are detailed in order to know that they could FIT only one person, and that person was Baha’u’llah.

Please show me such a prophecy. Because you sure haven't so far.

When you said “there are plenty of people out there who claim…” you just committed another fallacy, called the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious. So even if only the Baha’is know the correct interpretations of the prophecies, that does not mean they are wrong.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The one million dollar question is if they can prove their interpretations are right. They can’t do that because they don’t have the other side of the coin, because they do not have anything outside the prophecy to prove they are right, because they do not have a MAN who fulfilled the prophecy. All the Jews and Christians have is a false hope that their Messiah will come someday and that he will be as they imagined Him to be. Lol.

No. If I I claim that a prophecy must be clear and unambiguous and not be disputed in what it means, I can demonstrate that it fails by showing that there are people who dispute what it means.

If you do not believe the Bible, then there is no point even discussing this at all, because the entire discussion is predicated upon the Bible prophecies being correct.

Actually, the entire discussion STARTED about loved ones in hell...

NO, "If the source is correct, then the source is correct." is not my argument. My argument is if the source is correct and if Baha’u’llah did what the source says (or it happened as the result of His actions) then the prophecies in the source (Bible) were fulfilled by Him.

And Baha'u'llah fulfilling the prophecies is basically saying that the source is correct (because the source is the prophecies) and the fulfillment was correct. So yes, you actually are agreeing with me.

 

[cataway]

Sorry, I forgot to include the following fulfilled prophecy in my last post. Below is a photo of the Universal House of Justice at the Baha'i World Centre on the top of Mount Carmel. People of all nations flow into it.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days that the mountain of the Lord’S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.

you are saying the Baha'i are going to rule over the world of mankind ?

 

[Trailblazer]

you are saying the Baha'i are going to rule over the world of mankind ?

No, that is not what the prophecy means. The prophecy is one of many prophecies that are about the return of Christ, the Day of the Lord, and all those prophecies have been fulfilled. The Law of God is the new Revelation of God that came trough Baha'u'llah.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days that the mountain of the Lord’S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.

The Lord's house is where the location from which the Law of God goes forth and that is why the Baha'i World Centre was established on top of Mount Carmel, also fulfilling the following prophecies.

"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose."(Isaiah 35:1)

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.”(Isaiah 35:2)

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's assuming God exists.

I could easily say that if you believe in Thor, then Thor will guide you. I may even be utterly convinced that Thor is guiding me. But that doesn't make Thor real.

Well obviously God would have to exist.

The analogy of Thor does not work. Have you ever heard people say they were guided by Thor? There is a reason people say that about God, lots of people. It is because God is real.

And I said, "The event that fulfills it is part of the prophecy's life cycle, as it were." A statement that you agreed with. So no, you DON'T have to go outside the prophecy's life cycle.

I guess I misunderstood what you meant by going outside.

If your particular interpretation can be shown to be true through the use of reason, then why did the other translations say "Dragon" instead of "Jackal"?

You’d have to ask the translators.

No. You may be convinced it is true, but KNOWING is a different thing.

I am not going around that block again, believing vs. knowing. If we are certain that a belief is true we know it is true because we have an inner certitude.

You're drifting off topic here. The issue is that beliefs and facts are not the same thing.

I never said that they were.

Yeah, and that unwavering insistence that their beliefs are true no matter what isn't something you'd ever have, is it?

You're changing the subject here. So what if I have unwavering insistence that my beliefs are true? The huge difference is that my religion is not ANCIENT, it is new. Why would I want an old religion when I have a new one? That would be like going backwards. We do not downgrade an OS on a computer, we upgrade it when a new OS comes out.

I've already explained how it was likely. So it fails. Since you have disputed point 1 several times, however, you should accept that I am a prophet, since I'm sure that there has been a sunrise at your location.

You lost this one big-time. NONE of this was likely to happen as it did and that is why so few people recognized Baha’u’llah! Why not just fold your deck? Either that or take a logic class.

Are they required for being a prophet?

Yes they are. That’s why they are called prophecies.

And I bet you'll reject it if it requires you give up your current beliefs.

I’m not worried because they have no claimants who fulfilled any of the Bible prophecies.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man `unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him `unclean. '" Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

Bible Gateway Matthew 15 :: NIV - MIT

So how have you verified that no one who has walked the highway has been guilty of evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander?

Not necessary. How could you verify it, why would anyone bother? The unclean shall not pass over it means that it was not built for the unclean, it does not mean everyone who walks on it has to pass a test.

By that logic I can point to any temple and say that there's no reason why they should build this temple if the religion was not true, so that proves it!

That won’t work because the temple would have to be built where the prophecies say it will be. You know what they say – location, location, location.

You appear to be getting upset again.

I’m fine.

You can't explain why my points are unreasonable, yet you claim that they are. And you can't explain how your prophecies pass my points, yet you claim that they do.

I did explain how they pass, and there is no point going around that block again.

Well, if the prophecy said it would be built in Hawai'i, then I'd certainly count that as being unlikely, and so it would pass Point 1, wouldn't it?

That is completely illogical. If it said Hawaii you would believe it just because it is unlikely! You just cannot think outside the box of points you have boxed yourself into.

lol, do you hear your claims? You think the Holy Land has increased chance of making it correct just because of its location?

Did you just hear what you said? Of course the Holy Land has an increased chance because that is where the Lord was prophesied to come.

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

"The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13).

“Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel.” (Micah 7:14)

"Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain." (Zechariah 8:3).

How convenient for you.

Not convenient, just incontrovertibly true.

And True Religions always get built in that part of the world, don't they?

The ones associated with the Bible do. The other true religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism originated in other parts of the world. To be clear, Christ was prophesied to return to the Holy Land, so the prophecies for the return of Christ had to be fulfilled there, and that is where Baha’u’llah appeared thus fulfilling the prophecies.

God, who can make it anywhere, has some fascination with that poart of the world, which has nothing to do with the fact that human civilisation flourished there for thousands of years and that was therefore where religious beliefs were more likely to take hold...

As I just said, Bible prophecies are only about the return of Christ so try to stay on that subject.

Please show me such a prophecy. Because you sure haven't so far.

I have already done so with Micah 7:12 but I am not going around that block again. There was nobody who too that route who ALSO fulfilled all the other prophecies. Some man who went traveling does not qualify.

No. If I I claim that a prophecy must be clear and unambiguous and not be disputed in what it means, I can demonstrate that it fails by showing that there are people who dispute what it means.

So what? People will always dispute what it means it and here are the reasons:

1) They do not want to believe that Baha’u’llah fulfilled it because they are STILL waiting for a Messiah made in their own image that will restore their religion to iots former glory, and

2) They have not read anything else about Baha’u’llah and so they don’t know how He fulfilled ALL the prophecies!

And Baha'u'llah fulfilling the prophecies is basically saying that the source is correct (because the source is the prophecies) and the fulfillment was correct. So yes, you actually are agreeing with me.

Agreeing with you on what?

 

[Tiberius]

Well obviously God would have to exist.

And it all falls apart if God doesn't exist, doesn't it?

The analogy of Thor does not work. Have you ever heard people say they were guided by Thor? There is a reason people say that about God, lots of people. It is because God is real.

Ah, so that's a fake religion because no one follows it anymore. So the likelihood of a religion being true is directly related to how popular it is?

I guess I misunderstood what you meant by going outside.

Well, if you can't communicate clearly...

You’d have to ask the translators.

I'm asking you, since you have apparently determined which is the correct translation and which isn't.

I am not going around that block again, believing vs. knowing. If we are certain that a belief is true we know it is true because we have an inner certitude.

And I've been telling you that's a load of bull. You can believe something is true all you want, but that doesn't make it a fact.

I never said that they were.

Then why do you keep faffing on about your beliefs when I'm asking for facts?

You're changing the subject here. So what if I have unwavering insistence that my beliefs are true? The huge difference is that my religion is not ANCIENT, it is new. Why would I want an old religion when I have a new one? That would be like going backwards. We do not downgrade an OS on a computer, we upgrade it when a new OS comes out.

So why would God wait so long?

You lost this one big-time. NONE of this was likely to happen as it did and that is why so few people recognized Baha’u’llah! Why not just fold your deck? Either that or take a logic class.

You make a big noise repeatedly claiming that it wasn't likely, but you never explain WHY it was unlikely.

Yes they are. That’s why they are called prophecies.

So no one can be a prophet unless they first fulfill the OT prophecies.

Is it not enough that I make a prophecy and that prophecy comes true?

I’m not worried because they have no claimants who fulfilled any of the Bible prophecies.

I'm sure there are lots of Christians that would disagree. But you don't care about that, do you? You just find ways to dismiss their position. Not because of what they believe, but simply because your own beliefs require them to be wrong.

Not necessary. How could you verify it, why would anyone bother? The unclean shall not pass over it means that it was not built for the unclean, it does not mean everyone who walks on it has to pass a test.

So the prophecy clearly states the unclean shall not pass over it, yet you admit that the unclean people could very well pass over it. Wow, and yet you think I'm going to buy your claim that the prophecies are specific? Are you for real?

That won’t work because the temple would have to be built where the prophecies say it will be. You know what they say – location, location, location.

Wasn't there a bit in the Bible where Jesus tells his followers that they will spread the word of God and Jesus to all people, or something like that? Building churches and temples all over the world would be fulfillment of this, right?

I did explain how they pass, and there is no point going around that block again.

Your explanations don't hold up to scrutiny.

That is completely illogical. If it said Hawaii you would believe it just because it is unlikely! You just cannot think outside the box of points you have boxed yourself into.

No. I would consider it strong evidence because it describes something that the people of the time could not have known, thus it must have been information from God.

Did you just hear what you said? Of course the Holy Land has an increased chance because that is where the Lord was prophesied to come.

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

"The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13).

“Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel.” (Micah 7:14)

"Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain." (Zechariah 8:3).

How very convenient.

Not convenient, just incontrovertibly true.

You tell yourself that. You've not demonstrated it.

The ones associated with the Bible do. The other true religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism originated in other parts of the world. To be clear, Christ was prophesied to return to the Holy Land, so the prophecies for the return of Christ had to be fulfilled there, and that is where Baha’u’llah appeared thus fulfilling the prophecies.

And the religions that prophecy other things just don't count, giving you a convenient way to just avoid disproving them altogether.

As I just said, Bible prophecies are only about the return of Christ so try to stay on that subject.

Plenty of prophecies in the Bible about other things.

I have already done so with Micah 7:12 but I am not going around that block again. There was nobody who too that route who ALSO fulfilled all the other prophecies. Some man who went traveling does not qualify.

No, that prophecy is not detailed. It describes a guy who goes from the mountains to the sea and a river. That's hardly detailed or specific.

So what? People will always dispute what it means it and here are the reasons:

1) They do not want to believe that Baha’u’llah fulfilled it because they are STILL waiting for a Messiah made in their own image that will restore their religion to iots former glory, and

Lots of them haven't even heard of him, so they aren't actively denying him. Besides, they say the same thing about people who aren't in their religion. You're making the same flawed arguments they are.

2) They have not read anything else about Baha’u’llah and so they don’t know how He fulfilled ALL the prophecies!

You mean they didn't read the same interpretations that Bahais wrote to support their religion.

Agreeing with you on what?

That your argument was "If the source is correct, then the source is correct."

 

[Trailblazer]

And it all falls apart if God doesn't exist, doesn't it?

You’re darn tootin’…. But it all comes together if God does exist.

Ah, so that's a fake religion because no one follows it anymore. So the likelihood of a religion being true is directly related to how popular it is?

There is a religion with followers of Thor? No, the likelihood of a religion being true is not at all related to how popular it is as that would be committing the fallacy of ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

That was written and applied only to when Christianity was the narrow gate that led to life, when there were very few Christians in the first centuries, but Christianity is no longer the narrow road that leads to life because about 30% of the world population is now Christians. Given that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, Christianity is now the broad road.

The Baha'i Faith is now the small gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in this age. The Baha’i Faith and is the narrow gate because only a few people recognize God’s new religion in the beginning and enter through that gate.

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.

I'm asking you, since you have apparently determined which is the correct translation and which isn't.

I just used logic and common sense to determine that because almost all of the translations say jackals and not dragons. How the translators ever came up with dragons is beyond me as there are no such animals!

And I've been telling you that's a load of bull. You can believe something is true all you want, but that doesn't make it a fact.

And as I have already told you more than once, I never said that my beliefs are facts. A person can “know” something is true without it being factual.

Then why do you keep faffing on about your beliefs when I'm asking for facts?

There are plenty of “facts” surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah but that still does not prove that Baha’u’llah actually received messages from God or that God exists. Such things cannot e proven and that is why they are considered beliefs and not facts.

So why would God wait so long?

That’s very simple, because humanity was not “ready” for a new Revelation from God until the mid-19th century. God only sends a new Messenger to establish a new religion on an “as needed” basis.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

The Messengers of God are Divine Physicians who prescribe the remedy that man needs in every age, and the remedy mankind needs in the present age is very different from what humanity needed 2000 years ago when Jesus walked the earth.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

You make a big noise repeatedly claiming that it wasn't likely, but you never explain WHY it was unlikely.

That depends upon what you mean by likely. As I told you before, it was likely that Christ would return eventually because that was prophesied in the Bible, but it was not likely to be nobleman from Persia who did all the things he did and teach all the things he taught. Nobody expected that and that is why so few people recognized Baha’u’llah as the return of Christ.

So no one can be a prophet unless they first fulfill the OT prophecies.

Is it not enough that I make a prophecy and that prophecy comes true?

If you make prophecies that come true you can be a prophet, but a person cannot be the return of Christ unless he fulfills the Old Testament prophecies. For example, Nostradamus was a prophet.

I'm sure there are lots of Christians that would disagree. But you don't care about that, do you? You just find ways to dismiss their position. Not because of what they believe, but simply because your own beliefs require them to be wrong.

Why would I care? I know that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah so that means the Christians who are still waiting for Jesus to return and the Jews who are still waiting for their Messiah to come are waiting for nothing. My beliefs do not “require” them to be wrong, they “prove” that they are wrong.

So the prophecy clearly states the unclean shall not pass over it, yet you admit that the unclean people could very well pass over it. Wow, and yet you think I'm going to buy your claim that the prophecies are specific? Are you for real?

I did not say that the unclean will pass over it; I asked how you could “verify” that someone was unclean, by the definition I gave you before. Clearly the verse means that the highway was built for clean and if you read the next verse you can understand what the road was built for, as it says that the redeemed shall walk there

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Wasn't there a bit in the Bible where Jesus tells his followers that they will spread the word of God and Jesus to all people, or something like that? Building churches and temples all over the world would be fulfillment of this, right?

I am glad you mentioned that. The Baha’i Faith has been established in every country and territory in te world and there is a Baha’i Temple on every continent. These temples are very majestic as you can see in this video. There are really no other temples that can be compared to them, each one quite unique in its architecture. I suggest you take the time to watch the video, it’s not very long.

No. I would consider it strong evidence because it describes something that the people of the time could not have known, thus it must have been information from God.

Wake up and smell the coffee, the people of the time could not have known that those majestic temples would be built all over the world. That was not something that was something that is “likely to happen anyway” and it would not have happened unless a new world religion built them!

And the religions that prophecy other things just don't count, giving you a convenient way to just avoid disproving them altogether.

Funny you should mention the other religions as the prophecies of all the religious count. All the major world religions are expecting a Messiah, a world redeemer, who will come in the End Times. They all predicted the coming of a Messianic figure, a Promised One who would full the prophecies in their scriptures, and Baha’u’llah fulfills all their prophecies.

Below are two websites that cover the prophecies of the major religions and what they believe the Messiah will be.

“In this page a links to other pages concentrating on prophecies contained in some of the major Religious and Spiritual traditions of the World. Also I have included some predictions of Nostradamus and there is an article on 2012 which is the special date when the Mayan calendar comes to an end. In each section I give some background to the prophecies from the respective World Religions and also discuss some of their social and political implications.”

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.

Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "world-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a great teacher from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great religion restoring, world uniting, peace bringing Messiah.””

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Plenty of prophecies in the Bible about other things.

Of course there are many prophecies in the Bible about other things but that is not what we are talking about; we are talking about the prophecies for the return of Christ who is the same person as the Messiah.

No, that prophecy is not detailed. It describes a guy who goes from the mountains to the sea and a river. That's hardly detailed or specific.

The Bible does not much more specific than that, and in conjunction with the map and history of Baha’u’llah’s exiles and banishments, it is obvious who the prophecy refers to.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.
From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

You mean they didn't read the same interpretations that Bahais wrote to support their religion.

What the prophecies actually SAY only support one religion and that religion is the Baha’i Faith.

 

[Tiberius]

You’re darn tootin’…. But it all comes together if God does exist.

That's a mighty big "IF" ya got there though...

There is a religion with followers of Thor?

Yup. The old Nordic religion today

No, the likelihood of a religion being true is not at all related to how popular it is as that would be committing the fallacy of ad populum.

Agreed.

So I have to wonder why you thought it was relevant to point out that lots of people feel guided by God, since that would mean you were committing this fallacy.

I just used logic and common sense to determine that because almost all of the translations say jackals and not dragons. How the translators ever came up with dragons is beyond me as there are no such animals!

Maybe it's because the whole thing is just made up?

And as I have already told you more than once, I never said that my beliefs are facts. A person can “know” something is true without it being factual.

No, they can't "know" anything if what they claim to "know" is not actually a fact.

They may THINK they "know," but they don't they just have a really fervently held belief that they've confused with knowing.

There are plenty of “facts” surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah but that still does not prove that Baha’u’llah actually received messages from God or that God exists. Such things cannot e proven and that is why they are considered beliefs and not facts.

That’s very simple, because humanity was not “ready” for a new Revelation from God until the mid-19th century. God only sends a new Messenger to establish a new religion on an “as needed” basis.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

The Messengers of God are Divine Physicians who prescribe the remedy that man needs in every age, and the remedy mankind needs in the present age is very different from what humanity needed 2000 years ago when Jesus walked the earth.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

This really sounds like an excuse made up after the fact. Why didn't God do anything with the Black Death?

If you make prophecies that come true you can be a prophet, but a person cannot be the return of Christ unless he fulfills the Old Testament prophecies. For example, Nostradamus was a prophet.

Were you under the impression I was going to claim I was the return of Jesus? What in the world gave you that idea?

Why would I care? I know that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah so that means the Christians who are still waiting for Jesus to return and the Jews who are still waiting for their Messiah to come are waiting for nothing. My beliefs do not “require” them to be wrong, they “prove” that they are wrong.

People of all beliefs say the same thing.

I did not say that the unclean will pass over it; I asked how you could “verify” that someone was unclean, by the definition I gave you before. Clearly the verse means that the highway was built for clean and if you read the next verse you can understand what the road was built for, as it says that the redeemed shall walk there

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

Rubbish. You've said several times now that the highway can be used by unclean people.

I am glad you mentioned that. The Baha’i Faith has been established in every country and territory in te world and there is a Baha’i Temple on every continent. These temples are very majestic as you can see in this video. There are really no other temples that can be compared to them, each one quite unique in its architecture. I suggest you take the time to watch the video, it’s not very long.

And is there a prophecy that prophecizes that?

Wake up and smell the coffee, the people of the time could not have known that those majestic temples would be built all over the world. That was not something that was something that is “likely to happen anyway” and it would not have happened unless a new world religion built them!

So now you are saying that prophecies can only include things that people already knew? What's the point of calling them prophecies then?

Funny you should mention the other religions as the prophecies of all the religious count. All the major world religions are expecting a Messiah, a world redeemer, who will come in the End Times. They all predicted the coming of a Messianic figure, a Promised One who would full the prophecies in their scriptures, and Baha’u’llah fulfills all their prophecies.

Doesn't surprise me at all.

Whenever you have an all-powerful deity that allegedly loves Humans, the question is inevitably asked, "Then why doesn't God just stop all the horrible things that happen in the world."

So of course, religions need to answer it. And the best they can do is, "He's a-cooking something up."

Of course there are many prophecies in the Bible about other things but that is not what we are talking about; we are talking about the prophecies for the return of Christ who is the same person as the Messiah.

No, that's what YOU are trying to turn this topic into. I was just talking about my five criteria by which we can determine the validity of a prophecy in general.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

So it was a large area, you say? Already we are starting off with a large population of people it could apply to then.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

And how many people travelled from fortified city to fortified city? I'd say the vast majority of the traders who lived in the country, so there's still a lot of people.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

And lots of people would have travelled by river as well. Rivers were also used a great deal for trade.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

Traders would also have travelled across the sea to trade with ports in other countries.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.
From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

A trader carrying his wares across the country from city to city would certainly have gone near the mountains.

What the prophecies actually SAY only support one religion and that religion is the Baha’i Faith.

This prophecy was also likely fulfilled by many traders whose names have been lost to history. You've proved nothing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Agreed.

So I have to wonder why you thought it was relevant to point out that lots of people feel guided by God, since that would mean you were committing this fallacy.

I am not sure what you are getting at. I do not know what you mean by feeling guided by God… Are you saying that I would be committing this fallacy if I assume God exists just because most people believe in God?

Maybe it's because the whole thing is just made up?

I do not know what you mean by made up.

No, they can't "know" anything if what they claim to "know" is not actually a fact.

They may THINK they "know," but they don't they just have a really fervently held belief that they've confused with knowing.

I am not going around that block again of what it means to know. Know is a word with more than one definition and it means different things to different people.

This really sounds like an excuse made up after the fact. Why didn't God do anything with the Black Death?

What does the Black Death have to do with what I said? When I said that the Messengers of God are Divine Physicians who prescribe the remedy that man needs in every age, I was not referring to remedies for physical illnesses, I was referring to remedies for spiritual diseases.

Were you under the impression I was going to claim I was the return of Jesus? What in the world gave you that idea?

No, I never thought that.

People of all beliefs say the same thing.

But that does not prove anything, logically speaking, because what people say does not prove anything is true. Some are right and some are wrong and if we want to know what is true we have to do our own research. I believe I am right because I did my own research.

Rubbish. You've said several times now that the highway can be used by unclean people.

No, what I said is that we would not know if they were unclean or not because there is no way to verify that. It is not as if they carry a card like a person who has been vaccinated, proving that they are clean.

And is there a prophecy that prophecizes that?

I don’t know if there is an actual prophecy. You were the one who gave me the idea when you said:
"Wasn't there a bit in the Bible where Jesus tells his followers that they will spread the word of God and Jesus to all people, or something like that? Building churches and temples all over the world would be fulfillment of this, right?"

So now you are saying that prophecies can only include things that people already knew? What's the point of calling them prophecies then?

I am not saying that. One of your criteria state that the prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway so I was just saying those temples meet that criterion.

Doesn't surprise me at all.

Whenever you have an all-powerful deity that allegedly loves Humans, the question is inevitably asked, "Then why doesn't God just stop all the horrible things that happen in the world."

So of course, religions need to answer it. And the best they can do is, "He's a-cooking something up."

The way that God addresses all the horrible things that are happening in the world is by sending a Messenger who has the remedy that mankind needs to fix these things. The Messiah was one such Messenger and since the problems in the world now are very many and serious, Baha’u’llah write a lot of Tablets with the remedies.

No, that's what YOU are trying to turn this topic into. I was just talking about my five criteria by which we can determine the validity of a prophecy in general.

But it you do not have any prophecies to apply the criteria to, how can we apply the criteria?

And how many people travelled from fortified city to fortified city? I'd say the vast majority of the traders who lived in the country, so there's still a lot of people.

And lots of people would have travelled by river as well. Rivers were also used a great deal for trade.

A trader carrying his wares across the country from city to city would certainly have gone near the mountains.

This prophecy was also likely fulfilled by many traders whose names have been lost to history. You've proved nothing.

We already went over this. It does not matter if other people traveled this same route. They could not be the Messiah unless they (a) claimed to be the Messiah and (b) fulfilled all the other Bible prophecies. That eliminates everyone except Baha’u’llah.

 

[Tiberius]

I am not sure what you are getting at. I do not know what you mean by feeling guided by God… Are you saying that I would be committing this fallacy if I assume God exists just because most people believe in God?

You pointed out that most people feel guided by God and directly tied that to God being real. See post 367.

I do not know what you mean by made up.

As in someone made it all up. I thought it was quite clear.

I am not going around that block again of what it means to know. Know is a word with more than one definition and it means different things to different people.

And as long as you can keep changing which meaning you actually mean, then any conversation with you about it is meaningless.

What does the Black Death have to do with what I said? When I said that the Messengers of God are Divine Physicians who prescribe the remedy that man needs in every age, I was not referring to remedies for physical illnesses, I was referring to remedies for spiritual diseases.

You said God comes when he is needed. Apparently we didn't need him while a quarter of the population of Europe was dying of this disease (I can't remember exactly what the percentage was, but it was a lot).

No, I never thought that.

Then why did you say I needed to fulfill the OT prophecies?

But that does not prove anything, logically speaking, because what people say does not prove anything is true. Some are right and some are wrong and if we want to know what is true we have to do our own research. I believe I am right because I did my own research.

And people of other faith believe they are right because they also did their own research. You still have nothing special.

No, what I said is that we would not know if they were unclean or not because there is no way to verify that. It is not as if they carry a card like a person who has been vaccinated, proving that they are clean.

The prophecy itself gives us a way to make this determination. Of course, you have to disregard this and/or claim it means something else because you know there isn't going to be a magical forcefield barrier that stops people from setting foot on it.

I don’t know if there is an actual prophecy. You were the one who gave me the idea when you said:
"Wasn't there a bit in the Bible where Jesus tells his followers that they will spread the word of God and Jesus to all people, or something like that? Building churches and temples all over the world would be fulfillment of this, right?"

Stop avoiding the issue and answer my question. Do you have a prophecy that says that when the messiah returns, his followers will create temples in all countries? Because that would be better than the one you've got.

I am not saying that. One of your criteria state that the prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway so I was just saying those temples meet that criterion.

No, you said, "the people of the time could not have known that those majestic temples would be built all over the world." And that's why there were no prophecies about it!

The way that God addresses all the horrible things that are happening in the world is by sending a Messenger who has the remedy that mankind needs to fix these things. The Messiah was one such Messenger and since the problems in the world now are very many and serious, Baha’u’llah write a lot of Tablets with the remedies.

Me: *looks at the state of the world today*

Me: He's not doing a very good job, is he? I'd expect more from the Messiah.

No doubt, you are now going to start making excuses. Perhaps saying that God/Jesus/whoever can't force us to do things, or some nonsense like that.

But it you do not have any prophecies to apply the criteria to, how can we apply the criteria?

Who says I have no prophecies to which I can apply the criteria?

We already went over this. It does not matter if other people traveled this same route. They could not be the Messiah unless they (a) claimed to be the Messiah and (b) fulfilled all the other Bible prophecies. That eliminates everyone except Baha’u’llah.

Why do you put such stock in the Bible when you are not a Christian? It seems to me that you are just grabbing onto anything which you can twist into supporting your position.

 

[Link]

The idea that loved ones, friends, and family, will go to hell, is a big factor in why most humans stick to the religion of their family, friends, and loved ones, rather, then search the truth sincerely. Most people religion lines up with their family and loved ones for a reason.

 

[Tiberius]

The idea that loved ones, friends, and family, will go to hell, is a big factor in why most humans stick to the religion of their family, friends, and loved ones, rather, then search the truth sincerely. Most people religion lines up with their family and loved ones for a reason.

While I agree that most people end up with the same religious beliefs as the rest of their family, I think the reasoning is incorrect.

I doubt many children are thinking, "I better have the same beliefs as mum and dad because if I don't one of us will go to heaven and the other to hell and I don't want to be a part from them." Rather, I think that it's simply a case of the parents indoctrinating their children into the same religion that they have, and by the time the child is old enough to think critically about religion, they have become so indoctrinated that they rarely change their position.

 

[Link]

While I agree that most people end up with the same religious beliefs as the rest of their family, I think the reasoning is incorrect.

I doubt many children are thinking, "I better have the same beliefs as mum and dad because if I don't one of us will go to heaven and the other to hell and I don't want to be a part from them." Rather, I think that it's simply a case of the parents indoctrinating their children into the same religion that they have, and by the time the child is old enough to think critically about religion, they have become so indoctrinated that they rarely change their position.

You are right.

 

[Tiberius]

You are right.

Is this to be taken as a retraction of your claim in post 374?

 

[Link]

Is this to be taken as a retraction of your claim in post 374?

Yes.

 

[Trailblazer]

You pointed out that most people feel guided by God and directly tied that to God being real. See post 367.

Sorry, I did not see it their but that was a week ago. I don’t believe that most people guided by God and directly tied to God being real, although I might have said that most people believe in God.

And as long as you can keep changing which meaning you actually mean, then any conversation with you about it is meaningless.

I do not keep changing what I said about how I know but let’s start with another definition and I will explain it again.

knowing

• 1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself(3): to recognize the nature of : discernb(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of
• 2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write
• 3archaic: to have sexual intercourse with
• 1: to have knowledge
• 2: to be or become cognizant —sometimes used interjectionally with you especially as a filler in informal speech

2a: So, I am aware of the truth and factuality of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and I am convinced and certain that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be, a Messenger of God.

You said God comes when he is needed. Apparently we didn't need him while a quarter of the population of Europe was dying of this disease (I can't remember exactly what the percentage was, but it was a lot).

God does not come as needed for physical diseases because that is not what God comes to heal. God comes when He sends His Prophets who bring what is needed to heal spiritual diseases.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

“We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

And people of other faith believe they are right because they also did their own research. You still have nothing special.

All the religions are right to a certain extent, so if they believe they are right about certain beliefs I would agree. But when you say I have nothing special that is a logical fallacy called the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions, because you do not KNOW that I do not have something special unless you know what I have. Now if you respond that all religionists say that they have something special you would be right, but just because they say that that does not mean I do not have something more special.

To clarify, all religions have something special but if it does not have the Divine Remedy that humanity needs in this age, it is a moot point what they have. I might have an antique car that looks beautiful in my garage, but what good is it f it won’t even run?

Moreover, even if we were saved by Jesus’ cross sacrifice, we don’t need to be saved anymore because that has been done, and that is why Jesus said:

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What about the word “finished” do Christians NOT understand? It is way past time to move on to the new age and try to address the problems that humanity has in this age.

Stop avoiding the issue and answer my question. Do you have a prophecy that says that when the messiah returns, his followers will create temples in all countries? Because that would be better than the one you've got.

I do not know if there is such a prophecy but that does not mean there isn’t one, and even if there isn’t one, that does not mean that the Baha’i Temples are not significant. Everything that surrounds the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah is not in the Bible prophecies.

Me: *looks at the state of the world today*

Me: He's not doing a very good job, is he? I'd expect more from the Messiah.

No doubt, you are now going to start making excuses. Perhaps saying that God/Jesus/whoever can't force us to do things, or some nonsense like that.

He? It is not the Messiah that is going to do the work, it is humans. The Messiah already did His job in the 19th century when He came and completed His mission on earth , garnered a few followers, and wrote scriptures that contain the remedies mankind needs to build the new world order. However, if most people have not recognize Baha’u’llah and follow His instructions but instead cling to their older outdated religions, how is the job going to ever get done? The Baha’i Faith is as yet a very small religion but even then the small number of Baha’is have accomplished a lot. But until more people hop in board the full vision of Baha’u’llah will not be realized.

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

Why do you put such stock in the Bible when you are not a Christian? It seems to me that you are just grabbing onto anything which you can twist into supporting your position.

I do not need to grab the Bible to support my position because I have plenty of other evidence, but it just so happens that the Bible prophecies prove who Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah, so if people really want to know how that was proven they can read the book Thief in the Night by William Sears, as I told you a long time ago.

 

[Tiberius]

I do not keep changing what I said about how I know but let’s start with another definition and I will explain it again.

knowing

• 1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself(3): to recognize the nature of : discernb(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of
• 2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write
• 3archaic: to have sexual intercourse with
• 1: to have knowledge
• 2: to be or become cognizant —sometimes used interjectionally with you especially as a filler in informal speech

2a: So, I am aware of the truth and factuality of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and I am convinced and certain that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be, a Messenger of God.

So you are using "know" to mean "to hold a particular opinion and be convinced that opinion is true."

However, I would say that holding an opinion with no way to demonstrate that the opinion is the correct one is just holding an opinion. The opinion is not "knowledge."

God does not come as needed for physical diseases because that is not what God comes to heal. God comes when He sends His Prophets who bring what is needed to heal spiritual diseases.

How many horrific sins have people been guilty of, and God's done nothing? Does such callous disregard for human life not count as a spiritual disease?

All the religions are right to a certain extent, so if they believe they are right about certain beliefs I would agree. But when you say I have nothing special that is a logical fallacy called the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions, because you do not KNOW that I do not have something special unless you know what I have. Now if you respond that all religionists say that they have something special you would be right, but just because they say that that does not mean I do not have something more special.

To clarify, all religions have something special but if it does not have the Divine Remedy that humanity needs in this age, it is a moot point what they have. I might have an antique car that looks beautiful in my garage, but what good is it f it won’t even run?

Except everything you've shown me that is unique to your faith I find utterly unconvincing, and everything that religion provides that I agree with requires no God at all.

Moreover, even if we were saved by Jesus’ cross sacrifice, we don’t need to be saved anymore because that has been done, and that is why Jesus said:

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What about the word “finished” do Christians NOT understand? It is way past time to move on to the new age and try to address the problems that humanity has in this age.

Christians would say that what finished was the need for people to make sacrifices to atone for their sins, and Jesus ushered in an age where people, in order to atone for their sins, needed to accept Jesus as their saviour.

I do not know if there is such a prophecy but that does not mean there isn’t one, and even if there isn’t one, that does not mean that the Baha’i Temples are not significant. Everything that surrounds the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah is not in the Bible prophecies.

That was a lot of words to say, "No."

He? It is not the Messiah that is going to do the work, it is humans. The Messiah already did His job in the 19th century when He came and completed His mission on earth , garnered a few followers, and wrote scriptures that contain the remedies mankind needs to build the new world order. However, if most people have not recognize Baha’u’llah and follow His instructions but instead cling to their older outdated religions, how is the job going to ever get done? The Baha’i Faith is as yet a very small religion but even then the small number of Baha’is have accomplished a lot. But until more people hop in board the full vision of Baha’u’llah will not be realized.

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

So the Messiah wants the world to be peaceful, and yet isn't going to do a single thing to make it happen? Looking at Humans today, do you think it's ever going to happen if the only ones working for it are Humans? Coz I don't think so.

I do not need to grab the Bible to support my position because I have plenty of other evidence, but it just so happens that the Bible prophecies prove who Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah, so if people really want to know how that was proven they can read the book Thief in the Night by William Sears, as I told you a long time ago.

If you do not need the Bible to support your position, I challenge you to not use it again.