• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Loved ones in hell - take 2.

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you do not need the Bible to support your position, I challenge you to not use it again.
I do not need the Bible to support my position, but since the Bible is important to Christians and others, I will use it because it offers excellent evidence of who Baha'u'llah was.

I came back to edit my post # 379 because I wanted to add something I found to your post but you beat me to the punch. I will answer the rest of your post later, but meanwhile, since you seemed so interested in prophecies, I want to share this video with you. It is quite lengthy, but you don't have to watch it all at once. It is narrated by William Sears, the man who wrote the book Thief in the Night, and his wife Marguerite.

 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I do not need the Bible to support my position, but since the Bible is important to Christians and others, I will use it because it offers excellent evidence of who Baha'u'llah was.

I came back to edit my post # 379 because I wanted to add something I found to your post but you beat me to the punch. I will answer the rest of your post later, but meanwhile, since you seemed so interested in prophecies, I want to share this video with you. It is quite lengthy, but you don't have to watch it all at once. It is narrated by William Sears, the man who wrote the book Thief in the Night, and his wife Marguerite.


I take it that you've declined my challenge then?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you are using "know" to mean "to hold a particular opinion and be convinced that opinion is true."

However, I would say that holding an opinion with no way to demonstrate that the opinion is the correct one is just holding an opinion. The opinion is not "knowledge."

It is not an opinion because an opinion is not based upon facts. My beliefs are based upon the facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+is+an+opinion

I hold a belief I know is true. It is knowledge according to the second definition of knowledge below. My awareness was gained by experience of the facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

knowledge;

1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=knowledge+means
How many horrific sins have people been guilty of, and God's done nothing? Does such callous disregard for human life not count as a spiritual disease?
God has done nothing? God is not responsible for the sins that humans commit. God has sent Messengers who revealed teachings and laws and if humans followed those teachings and laws there would be no sin.
Christians would say that what finished was the need for people to make sacrifices to atone for their sins, and Jesus ushered in an age where people, in order to atone for their sins, needed to accept Jesus as their saviour.
It is true that Jesus ushered in that age, but that age is over. The message of that age was to accept Jesus as Savior but the gospel message has already reached everyone in the world. Once we have accepted Jesus what is left to do? Once we have heard the gospel message we do not need to keep hearing it over and over again. Meanwhile, Baha’u’llah has delivered a new message that we do need to hear.
So the Messiah wants the world to be peaceful, and yet isn't going to do a single thing to make it happen? Looking at Humans today, do you think it's ever going to happen if the only ones working for it are Humans? Coz I don't think so.
Baha’u’llah already did what he was supposed to do to make that happen, He revealed the teachings and laws for us to follow, and now the ball is in the court of humans to follow those teachings and laws.

It will happen because humans make it happen, it will happen no other way. It might take a long time but it will happen eventually.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117


God’s Purpose
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I have for the time being, for the sake of God.
Now why not take me up on my challenge and at least watch part of the video?

Declining challenges seems to be the going fad right now.

Besides, I'm not going to spend an hour and twenty minutes of my time watching a video which is, I'm sure, going to just make the same arguments you've already made. I've got better things to do. Besides, it's not really a fair comparison, is it? My challenge to you isn't going to spend nearly an hour and a half trying to convince you of something you don't accept, is it?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
It is not an opinion because an opinion is not based upon facts. My beliefs are based upon the facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+is+an+opinion

I hold a belief I know is true. It is knowledge according to the second definition of knowledge below. My awareness was gained by experience of the facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

knowledge;

1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=knowledge+means

Not quite. You are taking facts and then extrapolating from them to form your beliefs.

Your belief that Baha'ui'llah is the returned Messiah has no factual evidence to support it. There is a factual basis for some of the other things you hold, but there are no facts which directly demonstrate that he was the returned messiah. You have circumstantial evidence at best.

God has done nothing? God is not responsible for the sins that humans commit. God has sent Messengers who revealed teachings and laws and if humans followed those teachings and laws there would be no sin.

However, God could stop it if he wanted to. Either he doesn't want to, or he's negligent.

It is true that Jesus ushered in that age, but that age is over. The message of that age was to accept Jesus as Savior but the gospel message has already reached everyone in the world. Once we have accepted Jesus what is left to do? Once we have heard the gospel message we do not need to keep hearing it over and over again. Meanwhile, Baha’u’llah has delivered a new message that we do need to hear.

Circular logic. You are assuming that Baha'u'llah ushered in yet another age in order to show that Baha'u'llah ushered in yet another age.

Baha’u’llah already did what he was supposed to do to make that happen, He revealed the teachings and laws for us to follow, and now the ball is in the court of humans to follow those teachings and laws.

Funnily enough, coming and telling people not to be jerks to each other is something that a regular old person could have done. No Messiah needed!

It will happen because humans make it happen, it will happen no other way. It might take a long time but it will happen eventually.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117


God’s Purpose


Perhaps I should add a sixth criteria: You can't claim a prophecy is valid by saying, "Well, it hasn't happened YET, but it will happen..."
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Declining challenges seems to be the going fad right now.

Besides, I'm not going to spend an hour and twenty minutes of my time watching a video which is, I'm sure, going to just make the same arguments you've already made. I've got better things to do. Besides, it's not really a fair comparison, is it? My challenge to you isn't going to spend nearly an hour and a half trying to convince you of something you don't accept, is it?
I said that maybe you can watch at least part of the video, not all of the video. I have not even watched all of the video, I am watching it as I have time available, in installments. No, it is not like what I have been telling you, it is in a different format.

No, the challenge is not the same. I can meet the challenge not to talk to you about the prophecies anymore, but I will not promise I am not going to talk to other people about them. After all, a lot is hanging in the balance for people and someone might actually be receptive to the idea that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ. If I can save only one soul that is better than none.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I said that maybe you can watch at least part of the video, not all of the video. I have not even watched all of the video, I am watching it as I have time available, in installments. No, it is not like what I have been telling you, it is in a different format.

No, the challenge is not the same. I can meet the challenge not to talk to you about the prophecies anymore, but I will not promise I am not going to talk to other people about them. After all, a lot is hanging in the balance for people and someone might actually be receptive to the idea that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ. If I can save only one soul that is better than none.
@Trailblazer it is very good you want to save others, but how about you self? Have you managed to save you? How can you help others if you are not yet saved? and if you are saved, what did you do to become saved?
Hope you do not take offence in my more than normally direct questions
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not quite. You are taking facts and then extrapolating from them to form your beliefs.

Your belief that Baha'ui'llah is the returned Messiah has no factual evidence to support it. There is a factual basis for some of the other things you hold, but there are no facts which directly demonstrate that he was the returned messiah. You have circumstantial evidence at best.
No, I do not have to extrapolate anything because the facts prove my beliefs are true. My belief that Baha'u'llah is the returned Messiah has all kinds of factual evidence to support it, not the least of which are those prophecies in the video you won’t watch.

There are no facts that can prove anyone was ever sent by God as a Messiah or in any other way because no God claims can ever be proven and that is why they are beliefs.
However, God could stop it if he wanted to. Either he doesn't want to, or he's negligent.
God could stop it if He wanted to but He does not want to, and that does not mean He is negligent because it is not God’s duty to stop it, and one can only be negligent of they don’t do their duty as assigned. That is not even logical that God would be responsible to stop human from sinning because humans have free will to stop themselves, and that is their responsibility.
Circular logic. You are assuming that Baha'u'llah ushered in yet another age in order to show that Baha'u'llah ushered in yet another age.
No, there is nothing circular about it because I have not assumed anything, I looked at the evidence that support my beliefs.

.Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

My reasoning is not circular because I did not begin with what I wanted to end with. I am not using what Baha’u’llah claimed to prove who Baha’u’llah was, In other words, I did not say that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger of God because Baha’u’llah claimed He was a Messenger of God.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger is not that Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Messenger because that would be circular reasoning.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.
Funnily enough, coming and telling people not to be jerks to each other is something that a regular old person could have done. No Messiah needed!
That was not His message and no ordinary man could have written what He wrote, the sheer bulk of it as well as the content, all 15,000 Tablets.
I am fine with that criterion because it is fair. I do not expect people to believe it until it actually happens, but I do expect them to believe all the prophecies that have been fulfilled.

But isn’t that really similar to:
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@Trailblazer it is very good you want to save others, but how about you self? Have you managed to save you? How can you help others if you are not yet saved? and if you are saved, what did you do to become saved?
Hope you do not take offence in my more than normally direct questions
I did not really mean saved in the sense that Christians believe people are saved, but I wanted to see what Tiberius would do with that. ;)

However, in a certain sense I am saved, saved from spiritual death, because Baha'u'llah conferred everlasting life upon those who believe in Him, just as Jesus had done in His day.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. “No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I did not really mean saved in the sense that Christians believe people are saved, but I wanted to see what Tiberius would do with that. ;)

However, in a certain sense I am saved, saved from spiritual death, because Baha'u'llah conferred everlasting life upon those who believe in Him, just as Jesus had done in His day.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. “No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
Is belief in Baha'i'ullah enought to be " saved" ? Do not baha'is need to change from within? To be like baha'i'u'lluah?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Is belief in Baha'i'ullah enought to be " saved" ? Do not baha'is need to change from within? To be like baha'i'u'lluah?
No, we have to do more than just believe in Baha'u'llah, we also have to obey all His ordinances.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

The Twin Duties

But that is not the end of it, because we also have to do good deeds. Whoever said being a Baha'i is easy did not know what the requirements are.

5. O Son of Dust!
Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother. Say: O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be your adorning.

31.O Son of Being!
Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.

35. O My Friends!
Quench ye the lamp of error, and kindle within your hearts the everlasting torch of divine guidance. For ere long the assayers of mankind shall, in the holy presence of the Adored, accept naught but purest virtue and deeds of stainless holiness.

68. O Children of Men!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.

69. O Children of Adam!
Holy words and pure and goodly deeds ascend unto the heaven of celestial glory. Strive that your deeds may be cleansed from the dust of self and hypocrisy and find favor at the court of glory; for ere long the assayers of mankind shall, in the holy presence of the Adored One, accept naught but absolute virtue and deeds of stainless purity. This is the daystar of wisdom and of divine mystery that hath shone above the horizon of the divine will. Blessed are they that turn thereunto.

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I said that maybe you can watch at least part of the video, not all of the video. I have not even watched all of the video, I am watching it as I have time available, in installments. No, it is not like what I have been telling you, it is in a different format.

Please feel free to recommend a part of the video. Although I'll be disappointed if it's something that just repeats a claim you have already made.

No, the challenge is not the same. I can meet the challenge not to talk to you about the prophecies anymore, but I will not promise I am not going to talk to other people about them. After all, a lot is hanging in the balance for people and someone might actually be receptive to the idea that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ. If I can save only one soul that is better than none.

That's fine. Feel free to speak of the Bible to others, although it seems like very few other people are posting in this thread at the moment, probably because we are so far from the original topic...
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No, I do not have to extrapolate anything because the facts prove my beliefs are true. My belief that Baha'u'llah is the returned Messiah has all kinds of factual evidence to support it, not the least of which are those prophecies in the video you won’t watch.

There are no facts that can prove anyone was ever sent by God as a Messiah or in any other way because no God claims can ever be proven and that is why they are beliefs.

You are contradicting yourself.

You claim that you have facts that prove he is the returned Messiah, and then you say that there are no facts that can prove that anyone is the returned Messiah.

God could stop it if He wanted to but He does not want to, and that does not mean He is negligent because it is not God’s duty to stop it, and one can only be negligent of they don’t do their duty as assigned. That is not even logical that God would be responsible to stop human from sinning because humans have free will to stop themselves, and that is their responsibility.

And if you see someone in danger of imminent death, would you go to help them in whatever way you could, or would you say, "Well, that's not MY responsibility," and walk away?

No, there is nothing circular about it because I have not assumed anything, I looked at the evidence that support my beliefs.

.Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

My reasoning is not circular because I did not begin with what I wanted to end with. I am not using what Baha’u’llah claimed to prove who Baha’u’llah was, In other words, I did not say that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger of God because Baha’u’llah claimed He was a Messenger of God.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger is not that Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Messenger because that would be circular reasoning.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

If you only look at the evidence that supports your beliefs, then you are cherry picking.

That was not His message and no ordinary man could have written what He wrote, the sheer bulk of it as well as the content, all 15,000 Tablets.

There are plenty of people who are prolific authors. That fact they wrote a huge amount does not prove divinity.

I am fine with that criterion because it is fair. I do not expect people to believe it until it actually happens, but I do expect them to believe all the prophecies that have been fulfilled.

Well, you lemme know when it happens, okay?

But isn’t that really similar to:
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.

True, but a prophecy that the sun will rise tomorrow would pass that criterion.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tiberius, God wanted to create a perfect world, but he didn't want force everyone to be good or else loving God forcefully is not an ideal world, so when unexpected disobedience happened from an Angel who worshipped God for 6000 years, and then unexpected disobedience happened from a chosen ruler and representative of God, things got haywire and we all witnessed it, and most of us began to doubt the true God and his representing light and voice as well, and so this is why the world had to fall in this state.

Suffering in this world exists to reform souls and is a means of honor, but it only exists because people refuse to return back to God's chosen guidance and kings. God put's a condition if you obey my chosen kings, I will be your true king and open up blessings from heaven and earth, justice, peace, will be spread, and even nature will be changed so that there be no suffering.

This is a fallen world, because, we are in fallen state. You can observe this just by the simple hate humans have for one another.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Tiberius, God wanted to create a perfect world, but he didn't want force everyone to be good or else loving God forcefully is not an ideal world, so when unexpected disobedience happened from an Angel who worshipped God for 6000 years, and then unexpected disobedience happened from a chosen ruler and representative of God, things got haywire and we all witnessed it, and most of us began to doubt the true God and his representing light and voice as well, and so this is why the world had to fall in this state.

Suffering in this world exists to reform souls and is a means of honor, but it only exists because people refuse to return back to God's chosen guidance and kings. God put's a condition if you obey my chosen kings, I will be your true king and open up blessings from heaven and earth, justice, peace, will be spread, and even nature will be changed so that there be no suffering.

This is a fallen world, because, we are in fallen state. You can observe this just by the simple hate humans have for one another.

So God can't get us to be good and kind without violating our free will? God can't do things that are logically impossible?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So God can't get us to be good and kind without violating our free will? God can't do things that are logically impossible?

A perfect world and ideal one was the most probable world. We are living in a world that shouldn't have come to be.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Please feel free to recommend a part of the video. Although I'll be disappointed if it's something that just repeats a claim you have already made.
I will try to remember to find a part that you might like and could benefit from, as I continue watching it.
That's fine. Feel free to speak of the Bible to others, although it seems like very few other people are posting in this thread at the moment, probably because we are so far from the original topic...
Yeah, we have veered far from the original OP so if I want to talk about prophecies I will go to your thread on prophecies.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Suffering in this world exists to reform souls and is a means of honor, but it only exists because people refuse to return back to God's chosen guidance and kings.
Some of the suffering in this world is the result of people turning away from God and not following God's teachings and laws, thus choosing evil actions, but other suffering is inevitable because the nature of material world is the cause.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way.
 
Top