Males & Suicide

[Storm]

I'm going to repost this in my Sacred Masculine thread, but I thought it's important enough for its own thread. I'll start with an excerpt from Matthew Fox's book The Hidden Spirituality Of Men:

A recent study found that in America boys commit 86% of all adolescent suicides. Columnist Joan Ryan, a mother of a boy, wrote an article about this, yet what most alarmed her was the silence it generated:

Not a single email, phone call or letter about the column mentioned the striking statistic. It occured to me that if 86% of adolescent suicides were girls, there would be a national commission to find out why. There'd be front page stories and Oprah shows and nonprofit foundations throwing money at sociologists and psychologists to study female self-destruction. My feminist sisters and I would be asking, rightly, "What's wrong with a culture that drives girls, much more than boys, to take their own lives?"

So why aren't we asking what's wrong with a culture that drives boys, much more than girls, to take their own lives?
​

It is a worldwide phenomenon that three times as many men as women commit suicide. In part, this is because women fail at it more often than men; women tend to take pills or cut themselves, while men tend to shoot or hang themselves. However, Ryan believes the issue isn't one of methods, but shame, and this goes back a very long way to our days of hunting and gathering.

Women are socialized to feel little or no shame about being vulnerable or dependent. But for men, seeking help suggests weakness and incompetence. It is antithetical to the traditional male role. Power and control are critically important to men, dating back surely to the day when a man's job was to hunt dangerous prey. In their minds, seeking help means ceding power and control to someone else. It means allowing themselves to be vulnerable.
​

And Ryan calls on men to relate in new ways to their sons.

Just as we enlisted fathers to empower their daughters, we need them now to empower their sons.... They learn how to be men from their fathers.... Then maybe we have a chance at changing the centuries of hard-wiring that makes boys and men so much more violent than women - whether toward other or toward themselves.

And maybe more of our sons will live long enough to pass along those lessons to their sons.
​

Clearly, as with suicide, and as with returning soldiers, the primary issues for men involve both shame and aggression. So how do we deal with them? How does our culture deal with them? Furthermore, what does it meanto enlist fathers to teach their sons what it is to be a man in a time of cultural, ecological, and personal upheaval such as we are passing through today? What is fresh and what needs to be discarded?
​

The excerpt provides several good questions, I think, but I'll add a couple of my own.

Are males really hard-wired to be more aggressive, or is it cultural?

How do you personally deal with shame, and do you think it's a healthy method?

 

[Storm]

Bump. C'mon, guys, the OP's not THAT long....

 

[Apex]

Interesting thread, I have never thought of it that way. Let me think on it some more before I post a more detailed response.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

In part, this is because women fail at it more often than men; women tend to take pills or cut themselves, while men tend to shoot or hang themselves.

Just one more thing guys do better than girls.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I think this points to the abuse of "shame". It seems boys are more likely to be "shamed" by not fitting what they see as the "masculine ideal".
Tolerance and acceptance is what we should be teaching our children.
Personally, I find the use of "shame" as a means to advance any idea,or agenda, reprehensible.

 

[Panda]

Hmm I think a contributing factor is that men are far less likely to seek help for their problems while men will keep them bottled up inside and do their best to to not let anyone know ever because anything else in the world is better than admitting to people that you are weak and pathetic.
Of course I realise now that it isn't weak and pathetic to admit you need help, it is normal. It is weak and pathetic not to be able to admit there is a problem and get help for it.

 

[Green Gaia]

I wonder how much of this can be attributed to males having less leeway in expressing who they are than females do?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

I wonder how much of this can be attributed to males having less leeway in expressing who they are than females do?

I think it has a lot to do with it. Men aren't supposed to express emotion they need to stuff their feelings deep inside. We are also taught to be violent, we are told that we are the protectors, the soldiers of society. All that energy and agressive teaching needs to go somewhere so we see things like Columbine because men aren't taught how to deal with their emotions, but what they do know is how to be violent.

Violence is a sign of impotence of being powerless over a situation not knowing how to handle stress or emotion.

 

[Enoch07]

As far as the returning soldiers go I think it is partially because of misguided religious beliefs. I think too many feel guilt and shame for killing enemies in wars. Alot of people interpret "Thall shall not kill" as in you should never ever kill under any circumstance. But it actually is "Thall shall not murder" which means cold blooded premeditated murder, which is different than defending your country in a war. I think if this was taught more accurately you would have less guilt in the army ranks, therefore less suicides. These guys are under a terrible amount of pressure, and regardless of whether I am right or wrong something more does need to be done about PTSD.

 

[Father Heathen]

As far as the returning soldiers go I think it is partially because of misguided religious beliefs. I think too many feel guilt and shame for killing enemies in wars. Alot of people interpret "Thall shall not kill" as in you should never ever kill under any circumstance. But it actually is "Thall shall not murder" which means cold blooded premeditated murder, which is different than defending your country in a war. I think if this was taught more accurately you would have less guilt in the army ranks, therefore less suicides. These guys are under a terrible amount of pressure, and regardless of whether I am right or wrong something more does need to be done about PTSD.

But they already do that, on top of psychological training to dehumanize the perceived enemy. Taking a another human being's life would weigh heavily on a person's conscience regardless of the guilt, justifications or circumstances that deal with it.

 

[3.14]

if i am to belief spam its because there are so many impotent men out there

 

[Enoch07]

But they already do that, on top of psychological training to dehumanize the perceived enemy. Taking a another human being's life would weigh heavily on a person's conscience regardless of the guilt, justifications or circumstances that deal with it.

Oh ok did not know that. I agree its not a thing to take lightly. Just wish there was someway I could help figure it out.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I feel like some of it may be that men as a whole do not know how to adjust to a society that basically says it does not need them. What I mean is women in general have become their own heroes, providers, companions, etc. I think the pendulum needed to swing, but it swung too far the other way. Surely a change was needed in the way women and men related to one another. However, I believe our society has become a little too concerned with the welfare in all facets for the female, while letting the man deal with it on his own.

For example, times have surely changed from once where men felt needed by the family to be its breadwinner and protector. Now, the women have cornered the market on that. We hold most jobs, we are the majority at most schools, and we have even moved into areas of work typically dominated by men. I think subconsciously, men haven't handled it too well. We relieved him of financial, parental, and protector duties without replacing it with anything. Where once there was honor in a man taking these responsibilities, sometimes he is ridiculed as controlling or insecure if he wishes to take care of his family.

A whole lot of dynamics play into why this has happened, but the bottom line is that balance has not been achieved between the sexes. No matter how we try to erase any differences between us and minimize them to one of physicality only, we are different from one another. We typically approach problems and concerns of life in a different way.

I think that the idea of "traditional" gender roles has been not only changed but demonized over time. For example the idea of a woman being a housewife is almost reprehensible in this society. If she isn't working and going to school and doing a million and one things she is seen as less of a woman who only wants a man to take care of her rather than work for herself. There is a difference between offering the alternative as choice for women while maintaining that the housewife option is still okay, and offering the other alternatives as good and the former ways as bad.

I think more traditional gender roles as with everything else can be taken to an extreme as used as a tool of oppression, but so does non-traditional roles as well.

I know I went off on a tangent, but I feel these issues are interrelated.

 

[Ozzie]

I'm going to repost this in my Sacred Masculine thread, but I thought it's important enough for its own thread. I'll start with an excerpt from Matthew Fox's book The Hidden Spirituality Of Men:

A recent study found that in America boys commit 86% of all adolescent suicides. Columnist Joan Ryan, a mother of a boy, wrote an article about this, yet what most alarmed her was the silence it generated:

Not a single email, phone call or letter about the column mentioned the striking statistic. It occured to me that if 86% of adolescent suicides were girls, there would be a national commission to find out why. There'd be front page stories and Oprah shows and nonprofit foundations throwing money at sociologists and psychologists to study female self-destruction. My feminist sisters and I would be asking, rightly, "What's wrong with a culture that drives girls, much more than boys, to take their own lives?"

So why aren't we asking what's wrong with a culture that drives boys, much more than girls, to take their own lives?​

I think many have asked this question.

It is a worldwide phenomenon that three times as many men as women commit suicide. In part, this is because women fail at it more often than men; women tend to take pills or cut themselves, while men tend to shoot or hang themselves. However, Ryan believes the issue isn't one of methods, but shame, and this goes back a very long way to our days of hunting and gathering.

Women are socialized to feel little or no shame about being vulnerable or dependent. But for men, seeking help suggests weakness and incompetence. It is antithetical to the traditional male role. Power and control are critically important to men, dating back surely to the day when a man's job was to hunt dangerous prey. In their minds, seeking help means ceding power and control to someone else. It means allowing themselves to be vulnerable.
​

And Ryan calls on men to relate in new ways to their sons.

Just as we enlisted fathers to empower their daughters, we need them now to empower their sons.... They learn how to be men from their fathers.... Then maybe we have a chance at changing the centuries of hard-wiring that makes boys and men so much more violent than women - whether toward other or toward themselves.
​

Balony. Ryan is not entitled to question the rate of suicide in males is higher because of methods males select, whatever reasons she seeks to introduce.

Clearly, as with suicide, and as with returning soldiers, the primary issues for men involve both shame and aggression. So how do we deal with them? How does our culture deal with them? Furthermore, what does it meanto enlist fathers to teach their sons what it is to be a man in a time of cultural, ecological, and personal upheaval such as we are passing through today? What is fresh and what needs to be discarded?

It would be helpful not to complicate the issue of suicide in order to write a bestseller
​

The excerpt provides several good questions, I think, but I'll add a couple of my own.

Are males really hard-wired to be more aggressive, or is it cultural?

How do you personally deal with shame, and do you think it's a healthy method?

Studies have demonstrated that some people are born with a tendency to not suffer from PTSD. It has been suggested that brain imaging technology demonstrating this correlation be used to select candidates for direct combat roles in the military. Perhaps we should genetically similarly genetically select for male offspring that demonstrate a similar resistance to the development of PTSD?

 

[Storm]

I think many have asked this question.

"Many," maybe (it's a vague word), but not enough. I was completely oblivious to the issue until I read this.

Balony. Ryan is not entitled to question the rate of suicide in males is higher because of methods males select, whatever reasons she seeks to introduce.

I may be misreading this, but I don't think Ryan was seeking to dismiss the problem with "well, they succeed more."

It would be helpful not to complicate the issue of suicide in order to write a bestseller

Wow! That's really cynical....

1) Suicide was not the topic of the book, it was simply mentioned.
2) Isn't anything that spreads awareness of this problem to the good?

 

[Ozzie]

I'm going to repost this in my Sacred Masculine thread, but I thought it's important enough for its own thread. I'll start with an excerpt from Matthew Fox's book The Hidden Spirituality Of Men:

A recent study found that in America boys commit 86% of all adolescent suicides. Columnist Joan Ryan, a mother of a boy, wrote an article about this, yet what most alarmed her was the silence it generated:

Not a single email, phone call or letter about the column mentioned the striking statistic. It occured to me that if 86% of adolescent suicides were girls, there would be a national commission to find out why. There'd be front page stories and Oprah shows and nonprofit foundations throwing money at sociologists and psychologists to study female self-destruction. My feminist sisters and I would be asking, rightly, "What's wrong with a culture that drives girls, much more than boys, to take their own lives?"

So why aren't we asking what's wrong with a culture that drives boys, much more than girls, to take their own lives?​

I think many have asked this question.

It is a worldwide phenomenon that three times as many men as women commit suicide. In part, this is because women fail at it more often than men; women tend to take pills or cut themselves, while men tend to shoot or hang themselves. However, Ryan believes the issue isn't one of methods, but shame, and this goes back a very long way to our days of hunting and gathering.

Women are socialized to feel little or no shame about being vulnerable or dependent. But for men, seeking help suggests weakness and incompetence. It is antithetical to the traditional male role. Power and control are critically important to men, dating back surely to the day when a man's job was to hunt dangerous prey. In their minds, seeking help means ceding power and control to someone else. It means allowing themselves to be vulnerable.
​

And Ryan calls on men to relate in new ways to their sons.

Just as we enlisted fathers to empower their daughters, we need them now to empower their sons.... They learn how to be men from their fathers.... Then maybe we have a chance at changing the centuries of hard-wiring that makes boys and men so much more violent than women - whether toward other or toward themselves.
​

Balony. Ryan is not entitled to question the rate of suicide in males is higher due to methods males select, inserting sociological reasons alone. For example, Kohlberg has been criticised for gender stereotyping the developmental formation of moral reasoning as male. Is it rather that females are less successful because their chosen methods indicate that they are more addicted to relationships in formation of moral reasoning than men, as a difference between men and women

Clearly, as with suicide, and as with returning soldiers, the primary issues for men involve both shame and aggression. So how do we deal with them? How does our culture deal with them? Furthermore, what does it meanto enlist fathers to teach their sons what it is to be a man in a time of cultural, ecological, and personal upheaval such as we are passing through today? What is fresh and what needs to be discarded?

It would be helpful not to complicate the issue of suicide in order to write a bestseller
​

The excerpt provides several good questions, I think, but I'll add a couple of my own.

Are males really hard-wired to be more aggressive, or is it cultural?

How do you personally deal with shame, and do you think it's a healthy method?

Studies have demonstrated that some people are born with a tendency to not suffer from PTSD. It has been suggested that brain imaging technology demonstrating this correlation be used to select candidates for direct combat roles in the military. Perhaps we should genetically similarly genetically select for male offspring that demonstrate a similar resistance to the development of PTSD?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

I feel like some of it may be that men as a whole do not know how to adjust to a society that basically says it does not need them. What I mean is women in general have become their own heroes, providers, companions, etc. I think the pendulum needed to swing, but it swung too far the other way. Surely a change was needed in the way women and men related to one another. However, I believe our society has become a little too concerned with the welfare in all facets for the female, while letting the man deal with it on his own.

I agree men have lost their footing in a sense and they aren't sure what to do now.​

For example, times have surely changed from once where men felt needed by the family to be its breadwinner and protector. Now, the women have cornered the market on that. We hold most jobs, we are the majority at most schools, and we have even moved into areas of work typically dominated by men. I think subconsciously, men haven't handled it too well. We relieved him of financial, parental, and protector duties without replacing it with anything. Where once there was honor in a man taking these responsibilities, sometimes he is ridiculed as controlling or insecure if he wishes to take care of his family.

I disagree women do not hold the majority of jobs nor have they made men obsolete. Ever since the Feminist movement of the 60's men have been adjusting to the paradigm changes some better than others. But I think the ones who are having trouble are the ones that have an unhealthy attitude about what the definition of a man is. They cling to the 50's and 60's definition of a man which were never healthy definitions in the first place.​

Many families have dual incomes now in order to support the household. I see bread winning and protection as a partnership in our family, both my wife and I have jobs which contribute to the welfare of our family. We both share in household duties such as cleaning, laundry and caring for the children.
I don't think the duties of men have been taken away so much as they have changed over the years in certain ways. Where at one time fathers went to work, brought home the bacon and basically ignored the children. Fathers now are beginning to take on a more active role with raising children. Men are beginning to find new ways to participate in life that hold more meaning than they used to.​

A whole lot of dynamics play into why this has happened, but the bottom line is that balance has not been achieved between the sexes. No matter how we try to erase any differences between us and minimize them to one of physicality only, we are different from one another. We typically approach problems and concerns of life in a different way.

Balance isn't about erasing differences, it is about accepting each other for our differences yet also acknowledging that both genders can do the same tasks with equal results but perhaps differing approaches.​

I think that the idea of "traditional" gender roles has been not only changed but demonized over time. For example the idea of a woman being a housewife is almost reprehensible in this society. If she isn't working and going to school and doing a million and one things she is seen as less of a woman who only wants a man to take care of her rather than work for herself. There is a difference between offering the alternative as choice for women while maintaining that the housewife option is still okay, and offering the other alternatives as good and the former ways as bad.

Some habits are hard to break.​

 

[Karl R]

Regarding Teen Suicide:
It's my understanding that teen girls attempt suicide at much higher rates then teen boys. The boys succeed at much higher rates.

In order for Ryan to be correct, females must be deliberately choosing less effective methods. Is there any evidence that the majority of girls/women are trying to fail?

Regarding Men and Vulnerability:
I'm active on a couple Dating Advice blogs. It's widely acknowledged that self-confident men (or those who appear self-confident) generally succeed at dating. Those who lack self-confidence generally fail. (This is why so many women are drawn to jerks and bad boys ... they appear more self-confident.) If I express vulnerability or dependence, I appear to be less self-confident. Therefore, I have a reason to avoid being vulnerable or dependent.

You can argue that this is biologically hard-wired, or you can argue that it's imposed by society. I strongly suspect that it's driven by both.

The males who exhibit the most self-confidence get the most opportunities to breed. The males who exhibit the least self-confidence get the fewest opportunities to breed. If there's any genetic component to the behavior, all rules of Darwinian survival of the fittest applies to it.

The successful, self-confident males are also the ones that are most likely to be emulated by other males. So it makes sense that there would be a societal component to it as well.

Since my ability to date (mate, procreate, etc.) is directly tied to my apparent self-confidence, I have plenty of motivation not to express vulnerability or dependence ... without having to speculate that there might be some societal "shame" attached to it.

How Aggression Relates:
You don't need to be aggressive to appear self-confident, but you need to be ready to respond to someone else's aggression. As such, I would say that there is a loose connection to men's unwillingness to express vulnerability.

I think that male aggression is also a product of biology and societal upbringing.

Regarding Ryan's Idea to "Empower" Men:
I think Ryan fails to comprehend the issue.

My ability to date (mate, procreate, etc.) is directly dependent on my ability to appear self-confident. Appearing vulnerable or dependent is counterproductive to this goal.

Even if I think women's criterea for selecting men (based on self-confidence) is flawed, I can't change society. If I want to succeed at dating, I need to accept society's rules and figure out how to succeed within those rules.

If I want to empower someone, I have to explain to him why the societal standard is wrong (stupid, flawed ... choose your own adjective), and why he needs to follow it anyway.

Dealing with Shame:
I'm not convinced that male suicide has a strong correlation to shame, but the question is an interesting one regardless.

Years ago I decided that embarrassment was optional. I couldn't avoid doing foolish things, but I could choose not to be embarrassed about it. This is more easily said than done, and it requires a lot of self-control.

"Shame" is similar, except it suggests that it's potentially imposed by society. In order to shrug that off, you also need self-confidence. (In this case, apparent self-confidence is insufficient.)

I would say that these are very healty ways to deal with embarrassment/shame ... but they're also very difficult to implement. They certainly weren't options as a teenager.

 

[Storm]

I wouldn't say that self-confidence and vulnerability are opposed.

 

[Karl R]

I wouldn't say that self-confidence and vulnerability are opposed.

I didn't say that either.

I said expressing vulnerability is opposed to appearing self-confident.