Man hating: what is it?

[Simurgh]

I went to a girls school and had a very different experience. I was never made to feel like I could not do something because I was a girl. And from listening to other people's experiences I probably would have had a terrible experience at a mixed school and I'm very grateful I never went to one.
From my experience it seems girls are more accepting of each others differences when there isn't any boys around. Even our lesbian and bi girls were pretty much accepted, some being very popular in our school both friendship wise and romantically.

Yes, you are right, research has shown that girls benefit from being in a same sex educational environment, while boys don't. apparently they benefit from social interactions with girls.

It always seemed to me that girls by themselves are more accepting of difference until they are taught otherwise. then again, given that the female is considered to be the lesser human being and it is an insult to be told that one acts like a girl (in any way shape or form) when one is male it seems only obvious that an effeminate boy would suffer terribly, and so would anyone who would incure the wrath of the popular boys if he was thought off as gay.

After all, males constantly think htey have to prove their manliness--probably because it is a learned behavior.

 

[Alceste]

I think "man hating" is almost always used as a facile way for people to dismiss feminist ideas without actually considering them. Like "conspiracy theory" for the idea that banking and government operate on a shared agenda, or "anti-American" for criticism of the wars in the middle east.

I've never met any woman, feminist or otherwise, who "hates men" wholesale. Nor have I met one that doesn't exercise a little bit of extra caution when alone with a stranger who is a heterosexual man. That's just pure pragmatism and personal security. I don't know a woman who has never been sexually assaulted at some point - or at least been made to feel very unsafe - by a heterosexual man. For my own part, I was chased all over an empty mall by a very creepy middle aged middle eastern man when I was 14. I got away, but not without a lingering mistrust of over-friendly middle eastern men. Just like people who have been attacked by dogs are cautious around dogs. There's no "hate", just a keen awareness that sometimes dogs aren't just about cuddles and shaking paws.

 

[Sunstone]

After all, males constantly think htey have to prove their manliness--probably because it is a learned behavior.

Most likely, I think, it's more subtle than that, although I grant that learned behavior can have a lot to do with it -- especially in some cultures. Yet, cliche as it might be, don't entirely discount the effect that having at least 20 fold the chemically free testosterone of even a high testosterone female has on the tendency of males to make elaborate displays of manliness. In fact, the way I see it, the problem isn't so much that males are taught to make such displays as it is that they are not always taught to restrain behaviors that to some significant extent come natural to them.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Most likely, I think, it's more subtle than that, although I grant that learned behavior can have a lot to do with it -- especially in some cultures. Yet, cliche as it might be, don't entirely discount the effect that having at least 20 fold the chemically free testosterone of even a high testosterone female has on the tendency of males to make elaborate displays of manliness. In fact, the way I see it, the problem isn't so much that males are taught to make such displays as it is that they are not always taught to restrain behaviors that to some significant extent come natural to them.

Best solution. Give a man a few bricks and tell him to bang them together for a while.

 

[Sunstone]

I think "man hating" is almost always used as a facile way for people to dismiss feminist ideas without actually considering them. Like "conspiracy theory" for the idea that banking and government operate on a shared agenda, or "anti-American" for criticism of the wars in the middle east.

I've never met any woman, feminist or otherwise, who "hates men" wholesale. Nor have I met one that doesn't exercise a little bit of extra caution when alone with a stranger who is a heterosexual man. That's just pure pragmatism and personal security. I don't know a woman who has never been sexually assaulted at some point - or at least been made to feel very unsafe - by a heterosexual man. For my own part, I was chased all over an empty mall by a very creepy middle aged middle eastern man when I was 14. I got away, but not without a lingering mistrust of over-friendly middle eastern men. Just like people who have been attacked by dogs are cautious around dogs. There's no "hate", just a keen awareness that sometimes dogs aren't just about cuddles and shaking paws.

We're in substantial agreement here. But I gots a question. I was married to an abusive Japanese woman once, and I came away from that marriage extremely distrustful of abusive people, but I didn't develop a distrust of Japanese women in general. So, I take it that when you say you have "a lingering mistrust of over-friendly middle eastern men" you don't actually mean you would be less distrusting of, say, an overly friendly Canadian man than you would be of an overly friendly middle eastern man. Or, am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Sunstone]

Best solution. Give a man a few bricks and tell him to bang them together for a while.

It helps immensely with impressing the babes to smash a few against your forehead, too. Or so I have always believed ever since the first onslaught of puberty.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Best solution. Give a man a few bricks and tell him to bang them together for a while.

Man gets good enough at it, and gains hordes of female groupies willing to perform all manner of sexual favors at his whim. That's certainly one solution. There are others.

 

[Alceste]

We're in substantial agreement here. But I gots a question. I was married to an abusive Japanese woman once, and I came away from that marriage extremely distrustful of abusive people, but I didn't develop a distrust of Japanese women in general. So, I take it that when you say you have "a lingering mistrust of over-friendly middle eastern men" you don't actually mean you would be less distrusting of, say, an overly friendly Canadian man than you would be of an overly friendly middle eastern man. Or, am I misunderstanding you?

To be very specific, since I think all crappy behavior is rooted in philosophy rather than genetic, I am cautious around men from a patriarchal monotheistic cultural background. The more patriarchal and monotheistic the culture,the more cautious I am. While most of my direct experience of feeling threatened when I was traveling comes from men from Islamic cultures (for example north African men in Paris, who would follow me for ages insisting I come home with them), southern Italian men also have such a reputation among female travelers I didn't even bother to go there.

 

[Sunstone]

To be very specific, since I think all crappy behavior is rooted in philosophy rather than genetic, I am cautious around men from a patriarchal monotheistic cultural background. The more patriarchal and monotheistic the culture,the more cautious I am. While most of my direct experience of feeling threatened when I was traveling comes from men from Islamic cultures (for example north African men in Paris, who would follow me for ages insisting I come gone with them), southern Italian men also have such a reputation among female travelers I didn't even bother to go there.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[hexler]

Yes, you are right, research has shown that girls benefit from being in a same sex educational environment, while boys don't. apparently they benefit from social interactions with girls.

It always seemed to me that girls by themselves are more accepting of difference until they are taught otherwise. then again, given that the female is considered to be the lesser human being and it is an insult to be told that one acts like a girl (in any way shape or form) when one is male it seems only obvious that an effeminate boy would suffer terribly, and so would anyone who would incure the wrath of the popular boys if he was thought off as gay.

After all, males constantly think htey have to prove their manliness--probably because it is a learned behavior.

Please do not forget, that there are still mothers who treat their sons like princes. If a boy is treated like this he feels no need for learning because everybody has to serve him.

 

[Simurgh]

Please do not forget, that there are still mothers who treat their sons like princes. If a boy is treated like this he feels no need for learning because everybody has to serve him.

while this may be true--until the little bugger gets out in the real world--to a certain limit when dealing with females, or at least those who have no problem playing doormats. it is certainly not true when it comes to male-male interaction.

Have you ever watched one of these princes get his comeuppance on the playground? Yeah, not nice.

 

[Alceste]

We're in substantial agreement here. But I gots a question. I was married to an abusive Japanese woman once, and I came away from that marriage extremely distrustful of abusive people, but I didn't develop a distrust of Japanese women in general. So, I take it that when you say you have "a lingering mistrust of over-friendly middle eastern men" you don't actually mean you would be less distrusting of, say, an overly friendly Canadian man than you would be of an overly friendly middle eastern man. Or, am I misunderstanding you?

To get really specific, being Middle Eastern was only one of a long list of attributes that creepy perv who chased me displayed, and I am pragmatically suspicious of all of those attributes to some degree or other as a direct result of that harrowing encounter. The fact that many North African men (at least half a dozen) freaked me right the **** out with their creepy attentions in Paris lends men of an Islamic background even more weight when it comes to being mistrustful of particular strangers. But I'm still very mistrustful of over-friendly men (a particular kind of over-friendly, that is), very persistent men, very "helpful" men, men from a patriarchal, monotheistic background and in general any man who appears to be unusually solicitous of my attention.

The manifestation of that mistrust is basically just dodging their attention, though. There's no malice, I just prefer not to deal with anyone (male or female) who I feel may be likely to disregard my physical boundaries and body language cues out of pure cluelessness, mental disturbance, deranged philosophy or entitlement.

 

[Erebus]

Have you ever watched one of these princes get his comeuppance on the playground? Yeah, not nice.

Reminds me very much of a line my friend likes to use:

"He acts like somebody who's never been punched in the face."

 

[Debater Slayer]

One thing I've noticed is that sometimes not acting in accordance with certain social norms that promote male entitlement and privilege is criticized as "man-hating." That is, since such entitlement is viewed as pretty much a given right in certain cultures, questioning it or refusing to oblige to it is seen as denying men some sort of fundamental right they have and not merely as challenging unfair and discriminatory gender-based privileges.

That probably explains why feminists in particular are criticized by a lot of people who favor such social norms as "man-haters," I think. They're viewed as a threat to men's rights rather than supporters of women's rights because of the views that normalize privileges as "rights."

 

[Alceste]

One thing I've noticed is that sometimes not acting in accordance with certain social norms that promote male entitlement and privilege is criticized as "man-hating." That is, since such entitlement is viewed as pretty much a given right in certain cultures, questioning it or refusing to oblige to it is seen as denying men some sort of fundamental right they have and not merely as challenging unfair and discriminatory gender-based privileges.

That probably explains why feminists in particular are criticized by a lot of people who favor such social norms as "man-haters," I think. They're viewed as a threat to men's rights rather than supporters of women's rights because of the views that normalize privileges as "rights."

Good points, DS. FYI, I'd have zero issues having you over for a cup of tea.

 

[Simurgh]

One thing I've noticed is that sometimes not acting in accordance with certain social norms that promote male entitlement and privilege is criticized as "man-hating." That is, since such entitlement is viewed as pretty much a given right in certain cultures, questioning it or refusing to oblige to it is seen as denying men some sort of fundamental right they have and not merely as challenging unfair and discriminatory gender-based privileges.

That probably explains why feminists in particular are criticized by a lot of people who favor such social norms as "man-haters," I think. They're viewed as a threat to men's rights rather than supporters of women's rights because of the views that normalize privileges as "rights."

Yes, you are right about that. transgression of normative expectations is something that incites the ire of many, women certainly included. we accept male privilege to the point where it is hegemonic and then get upset when some women do not acknowledge this privilege and act aberrant--they ignore it.

that's when we become man-haters. not because we have something against men, but because we assume that if a man can do this then we can too. If some guy thinks he has to boss me around (he had not caught on to the fact that he was actually working for me) and i tell him that he might reconsider how he talks to me--i am called a sensitive little *****.

When I tell him what needs doing or that he screwed something up--even when i am being really nice and not at all confrontational about it--then i am a regulation nazi (regardless of the fact that security is a matter of life and death in that job). yet a man who says it is simply told YES SIR! I on the other hand get some snarky remark uttered quietly enough for me, but no-one else to hear.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, you are right about that. transgression of normative expectations is something that incites the ire of many, women certainly included. we accept male privilege to the point where it is hegemonic and then get upset when some women do not acknowledge this privilege and act aberrant--they ignore it.

that's when we become man-haters. not because we have something against men, but because we assume that if a man can do this then we can too. If some guy thinks he has to boss me around (he had not caught on to the fact that he was actually working for me) and i tell him that he might reconsider how he talks to me--i am called a sensitive little *****.

When I tell him what needs doing or that he screwed something up--even when i am being really nice and not at all confrontational about it--then i am a regulation nazi (regardless of the fact that security is a matter of life and death in that job). yet a man who says it is simply told YES SIR! I on the other hand get some snarky remark uttered quietly enough for me, but no-one else to hear.

I can totally relate. Many men in my almost all-male profession seem to really struggle with the fact that I'm there, and it's most obvious when I'm taking on a leadership role.

 

[Simurgh]

I can totally relate. Many men in my almost all-male profession seem to really struggle with the fact that I'm there, and it's most obvious when I'm taking on a leadership role.

you know what's really funny is that i am short and all those guys that work with me are big, not just taller than me, but also literally big enough for me to hide behind. the juveniles that watch me interact with those men are often amazed when we joke around and i give them crap, because those are authority figures to them and i just don't fit into the picture they have of what ought to be.

the best thing is when the guys act like they are scared of me or what i could do to them. well, in that job we have to entertain ourselves the best we can.

 

[Alceste]

you know what's really funny is that i am short and all those guys that work with me are big, not just taller than me, but also literally big enough for me to hide behind. the juveniles that watch me interact with those men are often amazed when we joke around and i give them crap, because those are authority figures to them and i just don't fit into the picture they have of what ought to be.

the best thing is when the guys act like they are scared of me or what i could do to them. well, in that job we have to entertain ourselves the best we can.

What is the job, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[Simurgh]

What is the job, if you don't mind my asking?

i sent you a message to answer that question