Man to Man... or Woman

[Shadow Wolf]

My skepticism remains.

Its not a healthy path to take.
Especially since you are very reluctant to let others take it.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

I am being quite civil, and so is pretty much everyone who responded to you, even though some of us (trans members) are being insulted pretty badly in this thread.

I guess we disagree on what being civil means.

Calling me a bigot - claiming that I am engaging in "hate speech" - claiming that my rights should be denied me - calling my religious beliefs "trash" - not actually reading my comments beofre responding to them.

I wouldn't consider any of that to be civil.

Contrast all that with me sharing my beliefs and claiming everyone else is free to believe and do whatever they want.

Is your ego that weak that people who disagree with you or are offended by what you say are somehow attacking you or persecuting you???

Wow - again - the pot calling the kettle black. How can you not see your own hypocrisy here?

You claimed that you and Shadow Wolf were both offended and had been "victimized" by me simply because I disagreed with you on this issue.

You are the one crying "Persecution!" just because I shared my religious belief about our spirits being engendered.

I mean - how can you not see the hypocrisy here?

Also - just a BTW - I never claimed to be offended or persecuted.

All I did was call out your hypocrisy.

Some religious beliefs are trash if they result in lack of compassion and uphold the abuse and mistreatment of fellow human beings.

I agree - but you should preface this statement with an "I believe..." - unless you want to break forum rules.

I would also say that I believe that many opinions of medical professionals and social activists could produce the same result.

Don't try to hide behind God.

No one is hiding behind anything.

I openly declare my belief that our spirits are engendered and that any alterations you make to your physical body in this life will be reversed and may cause you suffering.

The difference is that you can change your opinion but I can't change that I'm a man.

O-M-G L-O-L Did you really just say this?

First off - why would I want to change my opinion when I believe it is right?

Secondly - did you really just say this?

A transgender person claiming that he/she cannot change his/her gender?

I'm pretty sure you can't backtrack out of that one and the whole you being a hypocrite ship has sailed long ago.

That was hilarious. Thank you for that.

It's you and your ilk's response to people like me merely existing and declaring who we are that is the issue, but your response can be changed.

And what is my response?

Sharing my opinion on a religious forum website when asked to?

You know - you could change your response too.

Instead of trying to silence or destroy those who disagree with you - you could just say "Agree to disagree."

That's basically the stance I take on this issue.

You can do whatever you want - I'll agree to disagree with you on this topic - and leave me and my freedoms alone please.

K. Thanks. Bye.

You're the one who seems to have a problem with people having differing opinions and want to cry about it.

My problems have been with the name-calling and accusations and desires to take my rights away from me.

I have yet to "cry" about anything - but again - this is the pot calling the kettle black because you have been doing nothing but cry since you got here.

All while finding it impossible to change your gender. (Pfft)

They might revoke your transgender card over this one.

 

[Revoltingest]

Its not a healthy path to take.
Especially since you are very reluctant to let others take it.

Ya know....I see what you're trying to do.
I stated that it's simple for an atheist libertarian.
You want to make it about some unnamed unquoted
other atheist libertarian who opposes sex change.
It sidesteps my point that I've no scripture telling me
it's wrong. And that libertarians favor bodily autonomy.
Very simple for me to establish my view on its morality.
Claiming that some other of my ilk would disagree
doesn't make it any less simple. I smell straw.

 

[nPeace]

There is a simple answer.

You forgive them.

What a simple solution.
It's not that simple though. What are you forgiving them for, being forgiven but not having an interest in changing, or learning what they need to change?
How does that make for a better society?

I don't know if it's a forum bug along with the many others, but I do know it only saves drafts for so long.

Oh, okay. I decided to save what I am typing in a document.
Hope you get those bugs.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ya know....I see what you're trying to do.
I stated that it's simple for an atheist libertarian.
You want to make it about some unnamed unquoted
other atheist libertarian who opposes sex change.
It sidesteps my point that I've no scripture telling me
it's wrong. And that libertarians favor bodily autonomy
Claiming that some other of my ilk would disagree
doesn't make it any less simple for me.
I smell straw.

Do write down the names of everyone involved in every conversation you've had? I doubt it.
Like it or not, there are some atheist libertarians who do not approve of or support queers in general.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do write down the names of everyone involved in every conversation you've had? I doubt it.
Like it or not, there are some atheist libertarians who do not approve of or support queers in general.

Not about the point I made, but even if I ran into one of these
unicorns, the simplicity of arriving at my views remains.

 

[nPeace]

Well...I'm a trans man and if I agreed with you, I would be saying I'm not "really" a man when I damn well know that I am. People themselves tend to be the best sources of info about who they are.

Well I know how I became a man, I was not always. To be clear, I was a boy - first, a baby boy. I didn't know then head nor tail what I was.
As I grew, I learned from those who raised me, fed me, taught me, etc. I eventually knew what it meant to be a boy, and it didn't have nothing do do with feelings, it was the physical features that made that id.
So then I understood what a boy was, what a girl was, and what a man and woman were.
That's my story.

Has things changed, or maybe others just have a different story. Do you mind telling me yours? When did you know you were a male?

 

[nPeace]

I don't see what's wrong with this? What do you call someone whose gender you don't know?

Sorry. This is new to me, and I am just a bit confused. Pay me no mind. Thanks.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No need. I made my point.

Not to anyone who can read, you didn't.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well I know how I became a man, I was not always. To be clear, I was a boy - first, a baby boy. I didn't know then head nor tail what I was.
As I grew, I learned from those who raised me, fed me, taught me, etc. I eventually knew what it meant to be a boy, and it didn't have nothing do do with feelings, it was the physical features that made that id.
So then I understood what a boy was, what a girl was, and what a man and woman were.
That's my story.

Has things changed, or maybe others just have a different story. Do you mind telling me yours? When did you know you were a male?

Tragically, I'm not allowed to award you negative empathy points. But you have earned them.

 

[nPeace]

Of course its not the only. Among other things, labotomies were used as a treatment. However, that is a barbaric solution that is far beyond the realms of even an extreme treatment.
Transitioning is the only treatment that hasn't been a bundle of failures and ethical concerns and has shown promise at addressing the core issues of self with GD.
It doesn't address social concerns and other people, however, and that is a major issue that drives serious issues and concerns among the trans-community such as homelessness and suicide.

That'd different to what I read...
There is a lack of consensus demonstrated as to the exact nature of the condition. Questions remain for psychiatrists regarding whether gender dysphoria is a normal variation of gender expression, a social construct, a medical disease or a mental illness. If merely a natural variation, it becomes difficult to identify the purpose of or justification for medical intervention.

A deeper analysis of mental illness and alternative gender identities is not undertaken, and common causal factors and confounders are not explored. This is worrying, as attempts to explore, formulate and treat coexisting mental illness, including that relating to childhood trauma, might then be considered tantamount to ‘conversion therapy’.

As there is evidence that many psychiatric disorders persist despite positive affirmation and medical transition, it is puzzling why transition would come to be seen as a key goal rather than other outcomes, such as improved quality of life and reduced morbidity.

 

[nPeace]

Because that's his mental state? In his mind he is a boy? People generally know from 3 or 4 they are different.

How?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

As I grew, I learned from those who raised me, fed me, taught me, etc. I eventually knew what it meant to be a boy, and it didn't have nothing do do with feelings, it was the physical features that made that id.

This is why I'm quite sure you've passed by multiple transmen and transwomen and labeled them as 'man' and 'woman', 'he' and 'she' without ever knowing what their chromosomes are. As far as your everyday is concerned, they are men and women. They fit the physical features that make up your (and by extension societies) ID of the terms.

 

[nPeace]

I knew I wasn't since I was a little kid. Most people just know. Especially cis people, who never really have to deal with questioning such a fundamental part of our identity.

Is there a scientific explanation, or have we entered the realm of religious people. How do they know?

 

[Revoltingest]

Well I know how I became a man, I was not always. To be clear, I was a boy - first, a baby boy. I didn't know then head nor tail what I was.
As I grew, I learned from those who raised me, fed me, taught me, etc. I eventually knew what it meant to be a boy, and it didn't have nothing do do with feelings, it was the physical features that made that id.
So then I understood what a boy was, what a girl was, and what a man and woman were.
That's my story.

Has things changed, or maybe others just have a different story. Do you mind telling me yours? When did you know you were a male?

There are some here with a very different story.
Ask'm.

 

[nPeace]

It's the context, though. If I were white and didn't grow up using that word, it would be offensive to use that word in a subculture in which that word is used.



It doesn't, no. I haven't came across using plural pronouns for a person and having ran into anyone who didn't identify as male or female. I personally don't see it as an inherently bad thing. If you percieve someone is a male or female, you'd naturally address him or her as such by their english-grammar associated pronouns.

The difference is when you're talking to someone(s) who you know don't identify with either, it's best to ask or let them correct you-and by politness, take that correction when talking to that person.

The word it in English is used for a thing, mostly rather than a person. Even dog lovers don't usually call their child It. I don't see it as a hard and fast rule unless you're talking to someone with whom you know is a person and the topic decides the type of language is most appropriate.

If you are white make sure you don't use that word at all. Lol.

 

[nPeace]

Having gender dysphoria is not like having a random crush on someone. Every time I look in a mirror I put my hand over my breasts because I don't want to see them; they ruin my self-perception. Every time I want to make love to a woman I nearly break down because I haven't the right equipment. I have dreams where I'm a boy. I've been wanting to dress as a male since I was in primary school. I hung out with the boys and wanted to be part of them. I had no idea what made what girls liked so interesting. I wanted my hair cut short like George from the Famous Five, who was always confused for a boy. I wanted a boy name. Nearly every time I would play pretend I'd be a male character and not even think about it; that's just who I was. I was Robin Hood, or a Power Ranger, or Captain Jack Sparrow. The minute my breasts grew when I was 9 I hated them and wanted to cry over them. I hid myself away. I hated wearing bras from the moment I 'had to'. I wanted toy guns, bows and arrows, not heads to put make up on and do hair.

This affects every aspect of your life and it's horrible.

There are different opinion.
What are your thoughts on this?

The following is from the 2018 ICD-11:16
‘Gender incongruence of childhood is characterized by a marked incongruence between an individual's experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in prepubertal children. It includes a strong desire to be a different gender than the assigned sex; a strong dislike on the child's part of his or her sexual anatomy or anticipated secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire for the primary and/or anticipated secondary sex characteristics that match the experienced gender; and make-believe or fantasy play, toys, games or activities and playmates that are typical of the experienced gender rather than the assigned sex.’

 

[Rival]

There are different opinion.
What are your thoughts on this?

The following is from the 2018 ICD-11:16
‘Gender incongruence of childhood is characterized by a marked incongruence between an individual's experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in prepubertal children. It includes a strong desire to be a different gender than the assigned sex; a strong dislike on the child's part of his or her sexual anatomy or anticipated secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire for the primary and/or anticipated secondary sex characteristics that match the experienced gender; and make-believe or fantasy play, toys, games or activities and playmates that are typical of the experienced gender rather than the assigned sex.’

I told you in my initial post it goes beyond childhood. Why would I be thinking of sexually penetrating a woman as a child? I was making the point that this dysphoria is apparent from childhood but you seem intent on misreading my posts.

 

[nPeace]

Clearly then Christianity is whack and wrong because I thought it was me, I strongly, but it just didn't work for me. That is not. The truth came out after awhile. What felt, wasnt that.
There you go. I rest my case.

You thought Christianity was you?
Are we talking about something like choosing chocolate, or fruit, or something like that?
We choose our path. It's our choice. If you don't like something, and you don't want it, why wouldn't... or shouldn't you let it go?
You lost me, actually.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well I know how I became a man, I was not always. To be clear, I was a boy - first, a baby boy. I didn't know then head nor tail what I was.
As I grew, I learned from those who raised me, fed me, taught me, etc. I eventually knew what it meant to be a boy, and it didn't have nothing do do with feelings, it was the physical features that made that id.
So then I understood what a boy was, what a girl was, and what a man and woman were.
That's my story.

Has things changed, or maybe others just have a different story. Do you mind telling me yours? When did you know you were a male?

I don't really have a story. I've just always perceived myself as a male, never as a female. This is for as long as I can remember. When I was 2 or 3, I cut my chin while trying to shave my face like my dad, for example. I always saw myself as male in mental images of myself, dreams and hopes. I was beyond a tomboy in terms of how I felt.

Cis people don't understand what trans people are talking about when it comes to how we perceive ourselves because you've never had to question it. Your perception of self, your body and how others treat you are all in alignment. But if you're trans, you know that something is wrong and so we're forced to think about it.