Mandatory Public Service Vs. Male-only Military Conscription

[beenherebeforeagain]

Earlier today, @Revoltingest and I took a sharp unwinning detour in a thread known for winning...I promised that I would later start a thread devoted to discussing the above proposals. So here goes!

The question at hand, at it's root in my estimation, is whether or not people should have mandatory service to their country/government as part of their responsibilities as good citizens. That is, along with such duties/responsibilities as obeying the law, challenging bad laws, being involved in the political process, including voting, asserting your own rights and recognizing and protecting the rights of others, serving on juries, paying taxes, etc., and so on.

I find myself agreeing with the Revolting One that Military Conscription is bad, made worse when it targets only the young males in the population.

However, I don't have a problem with mandatory service for citizens. I do, however, have a problem with military service being the only option for citizen mandatory service. Within that service to the public, people should have some choice about which form service they will enter, depending on their own preferences and desires. That currently conscription is done poorly most everywhere in the world is beyond doubt, and I do not defend 'male-only' for combat and other potentially hazardous roles in military service whether compulsory or volunteer.

Why don't I have a problem with mandatory public service? Because I see government and society as an agreement between the members, a social contract if you will, that obligates certain responsibilities on the members, as well as places certain limits on what government/the nation can ask of its members.

There is far more to society than the military, and the military receives way too much emphasis in my way of thinking. Therefore, public service should include options for individuals to choose between military service, and service toward other societal needs...public health, environmental maintenance and protection, social safety nets, and etc.

After high school, I seriously considered joining the Navy (it's a family thing), but realized I would be a very bad fit. Had there been an option for Park Service or Environmental Service, I probably would have been a much better fit for that, and much more likely to have enrolled.

okay, that's a start...

 

[Revoltingest]

I oppose conscription because it's authoritarian.
It's also a waste of resources to put people into
involuntary make-work jobs.

 

[Aštra’el]

Yes, I would approve of mandatory military service. Among many other things it teaches people discipline, love and respect for their country, the value of fitness, honor & sacrifice, and builds connections with people- often for life- who will always have your back as you have theirs.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I oppose conscription because it's authoritarian.
It's also a waste of resources to put people into
involuntary make-work jobs.

So, I see a price that needs to be paid, and you see a cost that needs to be avoided...

Whether or not any of the jobs are 'make-work' would depend quite a bit...are most military positions just 'make-work?' There are many jobs that are needed--and often neglected--to support legitimate public activities, including police, fire, medical care, environmental testing, social services, public health, recreation, etc. You seem to assume that any such public service job is 'make-work' and not a real job.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, I see a price that needs to be paid, and you see a cost that needs to be avoided...

Whether or not any of the jobs are 'make-work' would depend quite a bit...are most military positions just 'make-work?' There are many jobs that are needed--and often neglected--to support legitimate public activities, including police, fire, medical care, environmental testing, social services, public health, recreation, etc. You seem to assume that any such public service job is 'make-work' and not a real job.

Suppose you conscript some youngster as a cop.
They really should be trained for at least a couple
years before getting the power of life & death over
civilians. What good is having them be done with
service even before they finish training?
Same for medical care. And why force people into
these jobs when there are many who'll do the work
willingly?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Yes, I would approve of mandatory military service. Among many other things it teaches people discipline, love and respect for their country, the value of fitness, honor & sacrifice, and builds connections with people- often for life- who will always have your back as you have theirs.

There have been a great many people who have found that military service did not provide these, but other, more negative outcomes, imo., including loss of health and loss of life.

But other kinds of public service could also have the potential for the good outcomes you list. But I would not call them inevitable.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, I would approve of mandatory military service. Among many other things it teaches people discipline, love and respect for their country, the value of fitness, honor & sacrifice, and builds connections with people- often for life- who will always have your back as you have theirs.

Odd....guys I know who were drafted learned
to despise their government & country.
Discipline? I've hired veterans. I found'm
no better than anyone else.

 

[The Hammer]

I've stated this before in other threads. My view is that there should be a mandatory 2 year "service period" for all members of a society, make and female.

This can be military service, my preferred option (probably due to bias), or something like Green Peace, or Peace Corp. The goal is to get the person thinking about communal service, and working towards a better society, to think outside of Oneself.

 

[The Hammer]

Among many other things it teaches people discipline, love and respect for their country, the value of fitness, honor & sacrifice, and builds connections with people- often for life- who will always have your back as you have theirs.

Yup
Nope
Maybe

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Suppose you conscript some youngster as a cop.
They really should be trained for at least a couple
years before getting the power of life & death over
civilians. What good is having them be done with
service even before they finish training?
Same for medical care. And why force people into
these jobs when there are many who'll do the work
willingly?

Not as a cop, as support for cops. There is a LOT of support that the police systems need but scrape by without...leading to many undesirable outcomes. But as I understand it, MPs start with only a few months' training, and advance through promotions throughout a career. And if we rethink exactly what's needed in policing, there may be many other rosts that could be filled by starting-level employees.

And of course they get paid, at least as much as what inductees in the military get paid...and I think they could use a raise as well. Sure, it may be spendy...but it's spendy to do things the way we're doing them now. It may take a re-imagining of some of the things we do as a society. Maybe we should think about that some.

 

[Revoltingest]

The goal is to get the person thinking about communal service, and working towards a better society, to think outside of Oneself.

How do you know that will be the outcome?
What will they earn will singing Kumbaya with
inner city children, & who will pay them for this
delay in starting their education or careers?

 

[The Hammer]

How do you know that will be the outcome?
What will they earn will singing Kumbaya with
inner city children, & who will pay them for this
delay in starting their education or careers?

I said it was the intended outcome. Not that it was foolproof. No act is without consequences.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not as a cop, as support for cops. There is a LOT of support that the police systems need but scrape by without...leading to many undesirable outcomes. But as I understand it, MPs start with only a few months' training, and advance through promotions throughout a career. And if we rethink exactly what's needed in policing, there may be many other rosts that could be filled by starting-level employees.

Young untrained or barely trained kids, eh.
Support in what way...cleaning patrol cars,
fetching donuts, or standing around while
cops do the real work?
Police reform we really need won't be
accomplished with unskilled conscripted
help.

And of course they get paid, at least as much as what inductees in the military get paid...and I think they could use a raise as well.

So not even a living wage, especially for one
supporting a family.
I suppose that one could argue that this would
teach well off kids frugality, & the "sacrifice"
would give them the poverty experience..unless
they're allowed financial support from parents.
That would mean that poor kids would be just
****** in the *** (pardon me French).

Sure, it may be spendy...but it's spendy to do things the way we're doing them now. It may take a re-imagining of some of the things we do as a society. Maybe we should think about that some.

I'm re-imagining having a government that
doesn't even have draft registration anymore.
Your plan would be yet another drag on the
economy, reducing tax revenue while increasing
expenses. Something else would have to be cut,
unless you propose yet another tax increase.

 

[Aštra’el]

Yup
Nope
Maybe

Do you feel any love and respect for your country? Or at least, any more than you did before you served?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why don't I have a problem with mandatory public service? Because I see government and society as an agreement between the members, a social contract if you will, that obligates certain responsibilities on the members, as well as places certain limits on what government/the nation can ask of its members.

IMO, a government that tries to enslave its citizens has broken the social contract and is owed no responsibility from those citizens.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Odd....guys I know who were drafted learned
to despise their government & country.
Discipline? I've hired veterans. I found'm
no better than anyone else.

Among fellow conscripts, I observed a lot of frustration and negative sentiment toward their own country when I was doing compulsory service. Some had health issues that also ensured their service could only harm and not benefit them.

I'll pass on supporting conscription.

 

[epronovost]

The problem with any mandatory work system is that it's profoundly useless in most advanced nations. Any conscripted help is going to be inexperienced and untrained so they can only accomplish basic tasks. What basic task does a modern society needs in the hundred of thousands? I doubt there is any. Maybe it could give an avenue to large farms to get agricultural workers during harvest time without having to rely on temporary foreign workers or prison labors. In spring in northern city, they could be useful to clean up the streets a little bit, but beside that I can't see the use of conscripts in civil service. As for military conscription, that's mostly a cop out to produce a nice "paper military". Conscripted soldiers have little use outside of territorial defense and local disaster relief efforts. Conscripts make for poorly trained soldiers of little motivation mostly ineffective in modern military operations.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Young untrained or barely trained kids, eh.
Support in what way...cleaning patrol cars,
fetching donuts, or standing around while
cops do the real work?
Police reform we really need won't be
accomplished with unskilled conscripted
help.

So not even a living wage, especially for one
supporting a family.
I suppose that one could argue that this would
teach well off kids frugality, & the "sacrifice"
would give them the poverty experience..unless
they're allowed financial support from parents.
That would mean that poor kids would be just
****** in the *** (pardon me French).

I'm re-imagining having a government that
doesn't even have draft registration anymore.
Your plan would be yet another drag on the
economy, reducing tax revenue while increasing
expenses. Something else would have to be cut,
unless you propose yet another tax increase.

Every cop I've ever known wished he/she could have someone to handle the paperwork, making routine phone contacts with potential witnesses, following up on earlier cases, etc. I think you're intentionally not thinking creatively about how the many legitimate services of government could be made better by having support staff.

I can think of many current spendings by the government that could be curtailed significantly and the proceeds go to paying a public service staff better, and even ways creative ways of restructuring ways that governments operate to make them more businesslike and less like the bureaucratic nightmare that you assume from the start.

By the way, I'm not presenting a 'plan,' I'm suggesting a way of fulfilling public goods of the society. You think compulsory anything won't work; I think your hands-off libertarianism won't work.

But I think we can agree that the current system does not work very well.

 

[The Hammer]

any more than you did before you served?

Nope, about the same as before I served. Only difference is I'm a wee bit more critical of the govt now. And specifically budgeting.

 

[We Never Know]

Earlier today, @Revoltingest and I took a sharp unwinning detour in a thread known for winning...I promised that I would later start a thread devoted to discussing the above proposals. So here goes!

The question at hand, at it's root in my estimation, is whether or not people should have mandatory service to their country/government as part of their responsibilities as good citizens. That is, along with such duties/responsibilities as obeying the law, challenging bad laws, being involved in the political process, including voting, asserting your own rights and recognizing and protecting the rights of others, serving on juries, paying taxes, etc., and so on.

I find myself agreeing with the Revolting One that Military Conscription is bad, made worse when it targets only the young males in the population.

However, I don't have a problem with mandatory service for citizens. I do, however, have a problem with military service being the only option for citizen mandatory service. Within that service to the public, people should have some choice about which form service they will enter, depending on their own preferences and desires. That currently conscription is done poorly most everywhere in the world is beyond doubt, and I do not defend 'male-only' for combat and other potentially hazardous roles in military service whether compulsory or volunteer.

Why don't I have a problem with mandatory public service? Because I see government and society as an agreement between the members, a social contract if you will, that obligates certain responsibilities on the members, as well as places certain limits on what government/the nation can ask of its members.

There is far more to society than the military, and the military receives way too much emphasis in my way of thinking. Therefore, public service should include options for individuals to choose between military service, and service toward other societal needs...public health, environmental maintenance and protection, social safety nets, and etc.

After high school, I seriously considered joining the Navy (it's a family thing), but realized I would be a very bad fit. Had there been an option for Park Service or Environmental Service, I probably would have been a much better fit for that, and much more likely to have enrolled.

okay, that's a start...

If I were fighting in a war I would want the people fighting beside/with me to be there by choice, not because they had to be there because its was mandatory. Thats my opinion.