Man's freewill and God's divine sovereignty

[night912]

What, you mean not created mankind?
Yes .. G-d could have done that, but He didn't.
Get real !

Address what I said instead using a strawman that's no where close to what I said.

 

[night912]

Not exactly. For one thing heaven is a spiritual realm. Earth is a physical realm. As well, originality in heaven after God created angelic spiritual beings. These angels knew God as Creator and they also knew His goodness. Yet, Lucifer and a third of those angels chose to become evil and were kicked out of heaven. No sin can stay in heaven. On earth humans had and have the choice to obey God or not, to sin or not. The practical reality is that everyone chooses sin to one degree or another...so no one can make it to heaven. Jesus Christ alone lived a sinless life. When a person trusts Him as Savior, their heart and mind is changed and His perfection and righteousness is applied to their life, making them fit for the heavenly state with no further desire to sin. The important point to note is that each person must freely make that choice to be saved by Christ and have their life transformed.

I didn't mean an exact heaven. What I meant was the circumstances could have been the same. No evil and/or suffering.

 

[firedragon]

"God will not impede man's freewill." I've heard this excuse, and other similar ones, time and time again from many devout theists (Christians, Bahá'i), who attempt to defend God's abhorrent cruelty and apathy towards immeasurable human suffering. Personally speaking, I think this excuse is a total cop-out. It's a cop-out to purposely defend God knowing about the reprehensible, inhumane atrocities that either God ordered himself or he allowed to happen and did nothing to intervene. The Holocaust comes to mind.

Instead of blaming God, the creator, these devout theists will blame the creation, mankind and Satan. They adamantly refuse to blame God, who has infinite knowledge (omniscience), infinite power (omnipotent), and he is ever-present (omnipresence). In other words, God had foreknowledge of every tragedy and atrocities throughout human history, and yet, he allowed these horrific events to take place, and he didn't stop any of it. Personally speaking, I think it's beyond disgusting, cruel and sadistic. There's no excuse.

I've said all of that to say this...

If I saw another person being physically attacked, I'm not going to turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" And I'm not going to think, "I'm not going to try and save this innocent child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" I would be a depraved, callous, cold-blooded monster if I refused to do whatever I could to save another person's life. Lastly, I don't blame humanity or Satan for the fallen world we live in. I blame God, the infinite creator, who foreknew that man and Satan would fall into total depravity and destruction. I blame God, who admitted he creates disasters and calamities (Is. 45:7).

God is responsible for the fallen world, and that's where the real blame lies, not with humanity or with Satan.

What is your suggestion to God and why do you think it should be that way? Particularly in the case of human free-will and Gods so called "allowance".

Thanks.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I didn't mean an exact heaven. What I meant was the circumstances could have been the same. No evil and/or suffering.

Sorry no.
Are you not aware that mankind can oppress each other?
I'm sure you are.

Would G-d create the world as it is for no reason?
I mean, why didn't G-d create babies that don't have to go to school and learn etc. ?
We can go on and on asking "apparently clever" questions. Basically, they are designed to destroy other people's faith in God, making faith to look incoherent etc.

It is foolish to follow in satan's footsteps. he is merely a created being. satan is unable to stop all suffering, so why entertain such pointless thoughts. Suffering is here to stay, like it or not.

 

[night912]

Sorry no.
Are you not aware that mankind can oppress each other?
I'm sure you are.

Would G-d create the world as it is for no reason?
I mean, why didn't G-d create babies that don't have to go to school and learn etc. ?
We can go on and on asking "apparently clever" questions. Basically, they are designed to destroy other people's faith in God, making faith to look incoherent etc.

It is foolish to follow in satan's footsteps. he is merely a created being. satan is unable to stop all suffering, so why entertain such pointless thoughts. Suffering is here to stay, like it or not.

Address what I said instead of go on and on making strawman that's no where close to what I said. Do you have anything to say that's relevant within the context of what I said?

 

[InChrist]

I didn't mean an exact heaven. What I meant was the circumstances could have been the same. No evil and/or suffering.

Thanks for clarifying, but my response still applies. Since I see God’s ultimate goal as a beautiful, peaceful, loving environment free of sin, pain, suffering and death ...there first must be the opportunity for each person to freely decide if they want to live in such a place...or keep hanging on to their own sin. This earth is that opportunity and time to choose.

 

[InChrist]

Those are seriously the only two options you see?

Interesting.

If God wanted to create beings with the freedom to choose between good and evil, as it appears He did, then those are the options I see.
If people want to see the world improve right now, God has given us that option. Do you want to see more peace and freedom from the damage of wrong human behavior? Then all one has to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness and a new life. Stop sinning in His strength.
Just my thoughts.

 

[night912]

Thanks for clarifying, but my response still applies. Since I see God’s ultimate goal as a beautiful, peaceful, loving environment free of sin, pain, suffering and death ...there first must be the opportunity for each person to freely decide if they want to live in such a place...or keep hanging on to their own sin. This earth is that opportunity and time to choose.

You did not addressed what I said .

 

[InChrist]

You did not addressed what I said .

I am trying to. Maybe you can specifically restate the point you would like addressed or the question you want me to answer.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"God will not impede man's freewill." I've heard this excuse, and other similar ones, time and time again from many devout theists (Christians, Bahá'i), who attempt to defend God's abhorrent cruelty and apathy towards immeasurable human suffering. Personally speaking, I think this excuse is a total cop-out. It's a cop-out to purposely defend God knowing about the reprehensible, inhumane atrocities that either God ordered himself or he allowed to happen and did nothing to intervene. The Holocaust comes to mind.




Instead of blaming God, the creator, these devout theists will blame the creation, mankind and Satan. They adamantly refuse to blame God, who has infinite knowledge (omniscience), infinite power (omnipotent), and he is ever-present (omnipresence). In other words, God had foreknowledge of every tragedy and atrocities throughout human history, and yet, he allowed these horrific events to take place, and he didn't stop any of it. Personally speaking, I think it's beyond disgusting, cruel and sadistic. There's no excuse.
I've said all of that to say this...
If I saw another person being physically attacked, I'm not going to turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" And I'm not going to think, "I'm not going to try and save this innocent child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" I would be a depraved, callous, cold-blooded monster if I refused to do whatever I could to save another person's life. Lastly, I don't blame humanity or Satan for the fallen world we live in. I blame God, the infinite creator, who foreknew that man and Satan would fall into total depravity and destruction. I blame God, who admitted he creates disasters and calamities (Is. 45:7).
God is responsible for the fallen world, and that's where the real blame lies, not with humanity or with Satan.

At Job chapter two I find it is Satan who challenged Job and by way of extension challenges us - Job 2:4-5.
Touch our ' flesh....." (<- loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
Most Christians in the Consecration Camps kept their integrity toward God.
The Jews could Not leave, but Christians could change their minds and be free to leave.
Job, Jesus & Consecration Camp Christians under very adverse conditions proved Satan a liar, and so can we.
MAN's history shows it is MAN who dominates MAN to MAN's hurt. MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Thanks for clarifying, but my response still applies. Since I see God’s ultimate goal as a beautiful, peaceful, loving environment free of sin, pain, suffering and death ...there first must be the opportunity for each person to freely decide if they want to live in such a place...or keep hanging on to their own sin. This earth is that opportunity and time to choose.

Yes, 'Earth is that opportunity' just as Earth was the opportunity offered to Adam before his downfall.
Adam could enjoy life forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth forever and ever.
Since we are innocent of what fallen-father Adam did is a reason why God sent Jesus to Earth for us.
Jesus to come and undo all the damage sinners Satan and Adam brought upon humanity.
Even to undo 'enemy death ' on Earth for us - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
A transformed Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
When No one on Earth will say, " I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24.
Yes, each person to freely decide if they want to be a figurative humble 'sheep' or a haughty 'goat'- Matthew 25:31-33,37.
Choosing to be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5.- Psalms 37:9-11.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..........................It is foolish to follow in satan's footsteps. he is merely a created being. satan is unable to stop all suffering, so why entertain such pointless thoughts.
Suffering is here to stay, like it or not.

In the Bible, I find that suffering was 'temporary' for both Jesus and righteous man Job - Job 2:4-5.
We are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! - Revelation 22:20.
Come! and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.
'Healing' to the point that No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24
Even 'enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.
This means we are praying to God that we have confidence that Jesus can and will bring an end to suffering on Earth.
So to me, in the Bible, suffering is Not here to stay, and I like that

 

[muhammad_isa]

This means we are praying to God that we have confidence that Jesus can and will bring an end to suffering on Earth.
So to me, in the Bible, suffering is Not here to stay, and I like that

Well yes .. there will be a reprieve for a while when Jesus returns.
satan will be imprisoned in a pit for ~1000 years .. but he will be back too.

It is in the nature of man. All civilisations rise and fall.
After hardship comes ease. Over generations, we forget and take things for granted once more.

Only after the final death will men be separated from evil for good.
Those that follow satan will be with satan.
Those that follow G-d will be with G-d.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Well yes .. there will be a reprieve for a while when Jesus returns.
satan will be imprisoned in a pit for ~1000 years .. but he will be back too.

It is in the nature of man. All civilisations rise and fall.
After hardship comes ease. Over generations, we forget and take things for granted once more.

Only after the final death will men be separated from evil for good.
Those that follow satan will be with satan.
Those that follow G-d will be with G-d.

And many people who believe that they are following God will be in for the biggest shock of their life.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ - Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV). It's people who believe in Jesus being turned away by him. So much for John 3:16, Romans 10:9 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Verses 41-46 of Jesus' Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, as written in Matthew 25:31-46 (New International Version).

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[muhammad_isa]

And many people who believe that they are following God will be in for the biggest shock of their life.

..not exactly..
Some people will be fooled, but innocent in as much as they didn't realise. G-d is merciful and just. He does not wrong anybody. Their final destination will be as they desired.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ - Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV).

Yes, Jesus warns us of the consequences of hypocrisy.

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I know. Everything we do is judged by its intention.
We can be renowned as a "good man", but an evil intention cannot be hidden after our death.

Those that go away to eternal punishment will not be sincere. They will "use" religion for evil purpose. That does not apply to the careless who are otherwise sincere.
G-d wrongs nobody. We need to beware satan. he wants to own our hearts.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well yes .. there will be a reprieve for a while when Jesus returns.
satan will be imprisoned in a pit for ~1000 years .. but he will be back too........Only after the final death will men be separated from evil for good. Those that follow satan will be with satan. Those that follow G-d will be with G-d.

Yes, Satan will be back, back but to be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
No wicked sinner gains everlasting life anywhere. ALL the wicked ( Satan is wicked ) will be destroyed forever.
- Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.
Yes, ' final death ' because 'enemy death' will be gone forever on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.
No one goes to Heaven to die in Heaven, so death is an earthly problem.
Those who follow Jesus will be either in Heaven for some (Revelation 2:10) or on Earth to be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth forever and ever - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.

At Jesus soon coming 'Glory Time' ( Matthew 25:31-33,37) those who follow Satan ( haughty goat-like ones ) are going to be gone forever, destroyed forever. The figurative humble sheep-like ones can gain everlasting life on Earth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, Satan will be back, back but to be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
No wicked sinner gains everlasting life anywhere. ALL the wicked ( Satan is wicked ) will be destroyed forever.
- Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.
Yes, ' final death ' because 'enemy death' will be gone forever on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.
No one goes to Heaven to die in Heaven, so death is an earthly problem.
Those who follow Jesus will be either in Heaven for some (Revelation 2:10) or on Earth to be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth forever and ever - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.

At Jesus soon coming 'Glory Time' ( Matthew 25:31-33,37) those who follow Satan ( haughty goat-like ones ) are going to be gone forever, destroyed forever. The figurative humble sheep-like ones can gain everlasting life on Earth.

You merely quote passages that appear to support your wishes that nobody suffers after death.
It is contradicted by many other verses in the NT, so you are wasting your time, as I see it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And many people who believe that they are following God will be in for the biggest shock of their life.




"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ - Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV). It's people who believe in Jesus being turned away by him. So much for John 3:16, Romans 10:9 and Ephesians 2:8-9.
Verses 41-46 of Jesus' Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, as written in Matthew 25:31-46 (New International Version).
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Yes, 'Christendom' (so-called Christians - see Matthew 7:21-23) are on the broad road leading to destruction.
So, yes, when the powers in charge (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) are saying, " Peace and Security...." that rosy saying will prove to be the shocking precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
Judgement starts with the religious ' House of God '. - see 1 Peter 4:17
In other words, the powers in charge will start ' house cleaning ' by getting rid of weed/tares 'Christendom'.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You merely quote passages that appear to support your wishes that nobody suffers after death.
It is contradicted by many other verses in the NT, so you are wasting your time, as I see it.

Please post a few suffering-after-death verses you have in mind.
Yes, Jesus supported ' sleep ' in death at John 11:11-14. That is more than just ' appear ' because Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teaches ' sleep ' in death.
Such verses as found at Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.

When King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that falsely put pain in death.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
Gehenna thus is a fitting word for: destruction.
Destruction such as found at Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22 that the wicked are destroyed forever.
The choice is at 2 Peter 3:9 either ' repent ' or ' perish' ( perish means: destroyed ) Not being in any pain.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Please post a few suffering-after-death verses you have in mind.

I don't see any point. You have already made up your mind, that although G-d lets us suffer in this life, souls are not immortal, and can be "blotted out"
I say "blot it all out" now, in that case.
..because how can you miss something if you are "blotted out"?

No. It is not coherent doctrine. Neither is it true.