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Marriage, Christianity and Homosexuality

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
I have been doing a lot of thinking about this subject lately. I, for a long time, have been conflicted between what I felt as a christian, and what I knew to be right as an American. I have basically come to the following conclusion and am ready to fight tooth and nail to defend it.

The majority of the dissent against homosexual marriage in this country comes from those who are christians, of which I am one. The thought process is that according to the Bible, God looks down upon homosexuality, and so then we as christians have a responsibility to do the same. When it comes to marriage, the Bible declares that marriage is for one man and one woman, and not a union that is reserved simply because of love that two people have for each other regardless of sex. That when God recognizes marriage, it is when two people, of opposite sexes, make a commitment to each other. Because of this, many people in the christian community have stood firmly against homosexual marriage, sighting that the practice would defile the sanctity of marriage as God intended. The argument, from a christian perspective, seems legitimate. However, there is one incredible flaw that I have realized, and that has totally changed my perspective on the issue.

God's view of marriage is not dependent upon American laws and government. Your personal view of marriage is not dependent upon what American laws are passed.

God's law, feeling and treatment of us will not change if we change a law in America. Those who follow Him seem to have more influence upon American law, than American law has over God. Woe to the lawmaker who dares introduce legislation saying that christians can't practice their religion on Thursdays, but christians have no problem telling gays and lesbians that they can not pratice the same rights guaranteed by the Constitution that all christians have. And let's be honest just for a moment, shall we. If all men (and women) are created equal, then they should be treated equally, regardless of sexual orientation, according to the constitution that governs all of us. That has no bearing on your religious belief. You can be a christian in any country, regardless of that countries laws. There has to be a seperation, and even the Bible points it out. Is what you do and who you are dictated by the constitution? by the law? by the practices of your neighbor?

NO.

You are who you choose to be, and by withholding the rights of gays and lesbians to marry, simply because you don't believe it is right according to your religion, you are doing something that God never did and would never do. You are withholding a free will choice for others to make. You may not agree with their choice, and you may feel bad that they made it, but it is theirs to make freely, and not for you, I or anyone else to tell them they do not the right to make that choice.

So, I say, let them be happy. Let them be married if they choose too. Let them have the same rights and freedoms that everyone else has. Don't create law simply because it is some christians idea of what America should be, but defend the laws that make America the great place that it is. The place where everyone is free to make there own moral choice.

Peace.

Buddy
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I wanna make sure I'm understanding you properly. Are you saying that Christ would vote "yes" on gay marriage?
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
What then happens when married gay couples (or even one person in that couple) are converted to Christianity? Should they be forced to divorce? Or should they be allowed to live in a what one sees as a sinful relationship?
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Victor said:
I wanna make sure I'm understanding you properly. Are you saying that Christ would vote "yes" on gay marriage?
I am saying that if I came up to Christ and asked him if I should vote for gay marriage, he would probably give an answer similar to the questions regarding Caesar's taxes.

Why is that relevant?

At the time, Rome was using tax money to do a number of things that would be considered by many christians to be immoral, but Christ didn't say not to give money, did he? He said, "give unto Caesar, the things that are Caesar's, but unto God the things that are God's." In other words, he was making a distinction between those things that are secular and those things that are spiritual, and basically commanding us to recognize the same.

So, would Christ vote "yes" for homosexual marriage? Probably not, but only because those voting will be politicians, and I am pretty sure that Jesus would have been too busy concentrating on things of a spiritual nature, to waste His time running for office.
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Linus said:
What then happens when married gay couples (or even one person in that couple) are converted to Christianity? Should they be forced to divorce? Or should they be allowed to live in a what one sees as a sinful relationship?
If they are to convert to christianity, it would have to be taught to them how God views their relationship. If I were teaching them, I would give themt he truth as I see it out of love. I don't believe that conversion to Christianity is possible if someone is to still practice homosexuality. But, that does not mean that my christian belief should negate the Constitution or replace any secular law. There is a disctinct difference between what laws lawmakers pass, and what my religious convictions are.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
BUDDY said:
I am saying that if I came up to Christ and asked him if I should vote for gay marriage, he would probably give an answer similar to the questions regarding Caesar's taxes.

Why is that relevant?

At the time, Rome was using tax money to do a number of things that would be considered by many christians to be immoral, but Christ didn't say not to give money, did he? He said, "give unto Caesar, the things that are Caesar's, but unto God the things that are God's." In other words, he was making a distinction between those things that are secular and those things that are spiritual, and basically commanding us to recognize the same.
I disagree. I think he was being specific to taxes and small matters of that nature. The Apostles did plenty of things to upset secular law.

BUDDY said:
So, would Christ vote "yes" for homosexual marriage? Probably not, but only because those voting will be politicians, and I am pretty sure that Jesus would have been too busy concentrating on things of a spiritual nature, to waste His time running for office.
Are you too busy as well? Do you plan on dieing and establishing a kingdom elsewhere?
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Victor said:
I disagree. I think he was being specific to taxes and small matters of that nature. The Apostles did plenty of things to **** off secular law.
Do you believe then that Christians have a mandate from God, to try to change any and every secular law that is in direct opposition to Christian (pick your denomination) dogma?
No. God's mandate is for individual Christians to preach and teach the word of God to everyone. Nowhere in the Bible does God call for Christians to be involved in secular government, or to make a habit of changing governments for the good of Christianity. We deal with people. One by one, and if they choose to accept Christianity, then great. If not, then we move to the next one. That is our mandate. To be overly concerned with secular government or to have a dishonest heart about how secular government runs, is not our mandate. That is why I say, let them have their choice. Denying them the choice does nothing for anyone. Does denying them this somehow help to spread the word of God? Does denying what the constitution says are teh rights of everyone, do anything for religion? What does a gay marriage ban do for religion Victor?

Victor said:
Are you too busy as well? Do you plan on dieing and establishing a kingdom elsewhere?
I am not following. Are you suggesting that I am trying to compare myself to Christ?
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
'Shoot them all and let God sort them out.'
I'm sure he's perfectly capable of that...he is supposed to be some sort of supreme being after all.
You stop people from being able to marry because you think it's a sin and you still aren't changing who they are or what is in their heart. You're just denying them the rights that go along with the marriage certificate. Rights that as a citizen of the "land of the free and the home of the brave", they have, well, a right to.
If a contingent of Muslims were lobbying to influence the laws of the country according to their religion, no doubt you'd have something to say about that. This is no different, it just happens to be something you agree with, so that's fine.
Regardless, the government should not be making decisions of law under the influence of any particular religion or holy book. It descriminates against the beliefs of anyone not of that religion by doing so.
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
BUDDY said:
Do you believe then that christians have a mandate from God, to try to change any and every secular law that is in direct opposition to Christian (pick your denomination) dogma?
No. God's mandate is for individual christians to preach adn teach the wrd of God to everyone. No where in the Bible does God call for christians to be involved in secular government, or to make a habit of changing governments for the good of christianity. We deal with people. One by one, and if they choose to accept christianity, then great. If not, they we move to the next one. That is our mandate. To be overly concerned with secular government or to have a dishonest heart about how secular government runs, in not our mandate. That is why I say, let them have their choice. Denying them the choice does nothing for anyone. Does denying them this somehow help to spread the word of God? What does it do for religion Victor?

I am not following. Are you suggesting that I am trying to compare myself to Christ?
I'd frubal you again, Buddy, but I can't.:(
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
BUDDY said:
Do you believe then that Christians have a mandate from God, to try to change any and every secular law that is in direct opposition to Christian (pick your denomination) dogma?
Not completely, no. But I do believe that while the state should not establish a particular state religion or require religious observance, it still must be infused with the ethics and values of religion generally if it is to operate properly. Like not stealing, raping, etc. Would you allow something like consensual cannibalism, prostitution, etc. simply because they feel it's their right to do so? Where would you draw the line? After all, you don't want to take away their choice do you? ;) This is not Christianity as practiced by billions before you. This is a new innovation that resulted from social pressure. I assure you if Christ was to stick around and play politics, the answer would be obvious.

BUDDY said:
No. God's mandate is for individual Christians to preach and teach the word of God to everyone.
Is preaching the Word of God mean passing a loved one a cigarette while telling him it's bad for him? HECK NO!! You won't give him the cigarette and tell him it's bad for him. But apparently you're willing to pass him a cigarette, while telling him it's bad for him. That makes perfect sense. Kinda like thinking gay marriage is wrong, but I'll let them do it anyways.:rolleyes:

BUDDY said:
Nowhere in the Bible does God call for Christians to be involved in secular government, or to make a habit of changing governments for the good of Christianity. We deal with people. One by one, and if they choose to accept Christianity, then great. If not, then we move to the next one. That is our mandate. To be overly concerned with secular government or to have a dishonest heart about how secular government runs, is not our mandate.
There is plenty of things that aren't in the Bible, so what?

BUDDY said:
That is why I say, let them have their choice. Denying them the choice does nothing for anyone. Does denying them this somehow help to spread the word of God? Does denying what the constitution says are teh rights of everyone, do anything for religion? What does a gay marriage ban do for religion Victor?
The rights of everyone? Where does it say that? Not from my understanding.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/leg23.htm
And as far as what it does, well that is quite long winded and I plan on typing something up soon about it.

BUDDY said:
I am not following. Are you suggesting that I am trying to compare myself to Christ?
What I was suggesting is that the Bible wasn't intended to be a book of politics/government and neither was Christ here to be a politician. His mission on earth was clear. But that doesn't mean that you don't have duties outside of the Bible Buddy. As I said, do some reading on how the billions of Christians before you would have handled this matter. The conclusion should be obvious. Don't let social pressure get to you. It' nothing new to the Church.;)
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
Victor said:
I assure you if Christ was to stick around and play politics, the answer would be obvious.
And I assure you, if Christ was to stick around, he'd be smart enough to realise that you don't make people of your faith by legal enforcement of the tenets of your religion. He'd be smart enough to realise that by making laws that prohibit the use of free will, you're negating the purpose of us having it in the first place.
Spreading the word of God with a sword or a gun or by denying people the right to marry - or in some cases even to make legal provision for - their loved ones, doesn't make people Christian. In fact, it has a tendency to drive people away.
I wonder who you think you are actually benefiting from the drive to ban same sex marriage. It certainly isn't saving any souls.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
BUDDY, your position is one i hold a great deal of respect for, and i thank you for openly posting it :clap

thanks :D
 

pdoel

Active Member
Linus said:
What then happens when married gay couples (or even one person in that couple) are converted to Christianity? Should they be forced to divorce? Or should they be allowed to live in a what one sees as a sinful relationship?
You are assuming that it is impossible for a homosexual to be Christian. That is not true.

God was also against pre-marital sex. God was also against divorce. But these two things are perfectly legal today, and are practiced by Christians each and every day.

If someone has pre-marital sex, should they be stripped of their Christianity? If someone is divorced, should they be stripped of their Christianity?
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
One important thing to remember is that different denominations of Christianity have widely varying views on homosexuality. Some churches will kick homosexuals out, others take the view that Jesus taught us to love one another and that we should leave the judging to God.:162:
Linus said:
What then happens when married gay couples (or even one person in that couple) are converted to Christianity? Should they be forced to divorce? Or should they be allowed to live in a what one sees as a sinful relationship?
So, the answers to these questions would depend on the particular church and its affiliation. I can't speak for others, but our denomination falls into the latter category.
pdoel said:
You are assuming that it is impossible for a homosexual to be Christian. That is not true....
Werd...and Frubals.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
But that doesn't mean that you don't have duties outside of the Bible Buddy. As I said, do some reading on how the billions of Christians before you would have handled this matter. The conclusion should be obvious. Don't let social pressure get to you. It' nothing new to the Church.
Are we always supposed to base things on how Christians did things throughout history? It sounds like a pretty bad idea with the dark ages and all.
 
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