Materialism in puja

[Sha'irullah]

In my 9 months as a Hindu I had one major issue with puja and that was the constant need of people to use items. Materialism and prayer do not sit well with me as I know a murti is no more sacred than a tree. If one was truly knowledge about the Vedas (which I am not remotely) they would not have come to the conclusion that the need for physicality in worship is not needed.

What are the common attitudes of this? Materialism has often been blamed upon the Hindus but how truthful do you yourselves find this necessary when it comes to you and god.

To me, no such thing is needed when it comes to god then a honest heart and a desire to worship. All of the naivedhya could be offered by a crook and from a hateful heart and no matter how many times one offers flowers to the deity it can still be done from a wicked heart.
So the constant need to offers items seems pointless to me if it proves nothing. I am not saying it is wrong at all but that it is not necessary not provides any true benefit if the heart of the person is in the wrong place.
So materialism and worship do not go well for me as I feel like a fool trying to impress somebody on how much I can give when I cannot give honest gratitude.

 

[Kalidas]

In my 9 months as a Hindu I had one major issue with puja and that was the constant need of people to use items. Materialism and prayer do not sit well with me as I know a murti is no more sacred than a tree. If one was truly knowledge about the Vedas (which I am not remotely) they would not have come to the conclusion that the need for physicality in worship is not needed.

What are the common attitudes of this? Materialism has often been blamed upon the Hindus but how truthful do you yourselves find this necessary when it comes to you and god.

To me, no such thing is needed when it comes to god then a honest heart and a desire to worship. All of the naivedhya could be offered by a crook and from a hateful heart and no matter how many times one offers flowers to the deity it can still be done from a wicked heart.
So the constant need to offers items seems pointless to me if it proves nothing. I am not saying it is wrong at all but that it is not necessary not provides any true benefit if the heart of the person is in the wrong place.
So materialism and worship do not go well for me as I feel like a fool trying to impress somebody on how much I can give when I cannot give honest gratitude.

Mine is VERY low on materials, just what is needed to help me get in the right mind. candle, incense, plate bowl and cup for offering, and my prayer book. That is all. Some want a lot some want a little bit, I think neither idea TRULY shows their devotion. Some feel that an outer expression helps them express their devotion in a physical sense, like how giving a gift to a family member is some peoples way of showing their love. While others think that devotion is better only in the heart. I see nothing wrong with either, it's all about what gets you in the heart felt love of God "mode".

 

[Sha'irullah]

Mine is VERY low on materials, just what is needed to help me get in the right mind. candle, incense, plate bowl and cup for offering, and my prayer book. That is all. Some want a lot some want a little bit, I think neither idea TRULY shows their devotion. Some feel that an outer expression helps them express their devotion in a physical sense, like how giving a gift to a family member is some peoples way of showing their love. While others think that devotion is better only in the heart. I see nothing wrong with either, it's all about what gets you in the heart felt love of God "mode".

I just hate to see people believe their obsession with materialism some how makes them more holy. I once knew a Muslim who refused to pray in anything but a thawb. Somehow he thought that dressing like a "Muslim" would make him more believable? . Never made any sense.

It seems that people always fail to realize physical appearances mean nothing. Even I can grab some nice flowers out from the 2 pots I am using for beautiful pink vines. I can pick them up and place then in a pretty bundle, give them to a friend and cuss him out for no reason.

Perhaps if you are far away from the event to hear my words one may think I am offering a gift of love but if you are close enough one can see I am doing this out of mockery and hatred.

APPEARANCES mean nothing, which is just my point

By the way...do you want these flowers? :foryou:

 

[Vinayaka]

Non-mystic intellectuals have a difficult time understanding mystic Hinduism. From the mystic viewpoiint, the deities in their etheric bodies can smell flowers, smell the naivedyam, smell the incense, see the lights of aarti, and hear the bells. So if you try to rationalise this, of course it will make no sense. Hindus will continue to do these things because they aren't rationalising it. The intellect itself is a huge barrier to progress on the Hindu path, for this very reason. Doubt will send a person away from the the temples... off to places like internet forums to argue with Hindus, or worse.

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

We are limited in the material world, there are other worlds very close to us, that of Gandharvas, Pretas etc.
So to start off the puja, the complete offering to the Deity is presented: in "prasadam" we have the material offering, in "flowers" and incense and bells we make another offering, and in the chanting of mantras we make still another kind of offering.
And only after that the real Puja begins!

 

[Kalidas]

Non-mystic intellectuals have a difficult time understanding mystic Hinduism. From the mystic viewpoiint, the deities in their etheric bodies can smell flowers, smell the naivedyam, smell the incense, see the lights of aarti, and hear the bells. So if you try to rationalise this, of course it will make no sense. Hindus will continue to do these things because they aren't rationalising it. The intellect itself is a huge barrier to progress on the Hindu path, for this very reason. Doubt will send a person away from the the temples... off to places like internet forums to argue with Hindus, or worse.

I hope the "low material" Hindu isn't an issue. I have to admit I am a bit of an intellectual... I'm working harder not to be as much but I also must realize my limitation and accommodate them until I can "be a better person"?

I don't really think either is right or wrong, and NEITHER should tell the other they are wrong in what they do.

 

[Viraja]

I don't really think either is right or wrong, and NEITHER should tell the other they are wrong in what they do.

Very well said, +1.

I would like to point out that offering naivedya, flowers, etc, each day to the deity is in itself a 'discipline' to the soul - it requires considerable prepartion for contributing these each day to the deity and thus it requires discipline to do it.

Next, it is indeed said that using various different products in a ritualistic worship of the god, that is, in viewing him/her as a guest to one's household or a child, and thus bathing, offering clothes, incense, sandal paste, naivedya, etc. are supposed to gradually open up the heart chakra, in other words, increase one's feelings of devotion, charity, kindness and goodness.

 

[Jainarayan]

I'm of several thoughts on this.

1. I have 2 puja sets complete with panchapatra, kalash, thali, offering bowls, oil/ghee lamps, bells. But I use these as individual items, not in your typical home puja with the bathing, the rice, the clothing, etc. My puja is my own concoction (like everything else I do ).

2. For Krishna, the best puja one can do for him is to serve others, do everything as a sacrifice to him (kind of tantric to 'weave' daily life and spirituality together), think of him always. He says he is praised by even a single śloka. Imo that technically dispenses with physical puja. In light of that there's nothing wrong with having private time at a shrine or altar, and indulging in the mystical.

3. I do have a certain degree of mysticism. Not to the advanced extent as Vinayaka, for example (sorry to call you out ), but my mysticism is there. To that end, I use bells, incense, lights, sweets, water offerings, flowers and chanting. I use these because, while I believe the deities are always present and around us, selfishly, I like the bells, incense, lights, sweets, chanting, flowers, and I presume the deities do also. So I'm inviting them to enjoy them with me.

4. Laugh at me if you will, but there was an episode of Xena Warrior Princess called The Way, in which she and Gabriela go to India. There Xena meets Hanuman and Krishna, who tells her what her path is. Some Hindus praised it, some were outraged (meh, can't please everyone).

The upshot, going back to attracting the attention of the gods, Hanuman tells Xena, when she's getting annoyed getting no response from Krishna (I'm paraphrasing) "These gods do not always hear or pay attention very well, so you have to really try to get their attention". In Krishna's temple, as she is almost demanding his attention, his murthi comes to life and he begins teaching her.

This idea of having to attract the deities' attention in the episode of a tv show must have come from somewhere. The producers did say they consulted with knowledgeable Hindu technical advisers. So perhaps the idea of having to get the deities' attention is not so far-fetched.

 

[Jainarayan]

I would like to point out that offering naivedya, flowers, etc, each day to the deity is in itself a 'discipline' to the soul - it requires considerable prepartion for contributing these each day to the deity and thus it requires discipline to do it. ...

are supposed to gradually open up the heart chakra, in other words, increase one's feelings of devotion, charity, kindness and goodness.

That too.

 

[Kalidas]

I'm of several thoughts on this.

1. I have 2 puja sets complete with panchapatra, kalash, thali, offering bowls, oil/ghee lamps, bells. But I use these as individual items, not in your typical home puja with the bathing, the rice, the clothing, etc. My puja is my own concoction (like everything else I do ).

2. For Krishna, the best puja one can do for him is to serve others, do everything as a sacrifice to him (kind of tantric to 'weave' daily life and spirituality together), think of him always. He says he is praised by even a single śloka. Imo that technically dispenses with physical puja. In light of that there's nothing wrong with having private time at a shrine or altar, and indulging in the mystical.

3. I do have a certain degree of mysticism. Not to the advanced extent as Vinayaka, for example (sorry to call you out ), but my mysticism is there. To that end, I use bells, incense, lights, sweets, water offerings, flowers and chanting. I use these because, while I believe the deities are always present and around us, selfishly, I like the bells, incense, lights, sweets, chanting, flowers, and I presume the deities do also. So I'm inviting them to enjoy them with me.

4. Laugh at me if you will, but there was an episode of Xena Warrior Princess called The Way, in which she and Gabriela go to India. There Xena meets Hanuman and Krishna, who tells her what her path is. Some Hindus praised it, some were outraged (meh, can't please everyone).

The upshot, going back to attracting the attention of the gods, Hanuman tells Xena, when she's getting annoyed getting no response from Krishna (I'm paraphrasing) "These gods do not always hear or pay attention very well, so you have to really try to get their attention". In Krishna's temple, as she is almost demanding his attention, his murthi comes to life and he begins teaching her.

This idea of having to attract the deities' attention in the episode of a tv show must have come from somewhere. The producers did say they consulted with knowledgeable Hindu technical advisers. So perhaps the idea of having to get the deities' attention is not so far-fetched.

You have a point here.

I had a temporary puja hiatus for about 2 weeks. Yesterday had the first on in two weeks. BAM instantly GREAT DAY! Felt so invigorated, all day Kali, Genesha, and Hanuman (did I mention I added more to my "family"?)was in my heart and my mind helping guide me and my decisions and I just had an all around good day, best in weeks.

Not that I think the Gods CAN'T help when we don' do puja or neglect them. But I think Puja is as much for us as it is for them. I feel the deities WANT to see and experience their devotees. I mean they decided to reveal themselves to us for a reason OBVIOUSLY they enjoy our company. Yet at the same time on the other point it is good for us to stay "God-conscious", for me a daily worship helps keep my mind in the right place all day long. It's like when you invite a family member to your house. You BOTH get a lot out of it.

On the topic of this though. The Gita has Krishna mentioning that no matter what you off him a leaf, honey, water, or just devotion he will except it with love. (TOTALLY stole your line Jainaryan ) Also someone on this forum posted a GREAT picture of Hanuman opening his chest revealing Siva and Parvarti within his heart, the best place for the deities to be is in your heart.

So what ever helps YOU open your chest up to allow the Gods to enter is what is "right". No one else can see your devotion and you have NO ONE to answer to but yourself and the Gods.

 

[arpankhandelwal]

In my 9 months as a Hindu I had one major issue with puja and that was the constant need of people to use items. Materialism and prayer do not sit well with me as I know a murti is no more sacred than a tree. If one was truly knowledge about the Vedas (which I am not remotely) they would not have come to the conclusion that the need for physicality in worship is not needed.

What are the common attitudes of this? Materialism has often been blamed upon the Hindus but how truthful do you yourselves find this necessary when it comes to you and god.

To me, no such thing is needed when it comes to god then a honest heart and a desire to worship. All of the naivedhya could be offered by a crook and from a hateful heart and no matter how many times one offers flowers to the deity it can still be done from a wicked heart.
So the constant need to offers items seems pointless to me if it proves nothing. I am not saying it is wrong at all but that it is not necessary not provides any true benefit if the heart of the person is in the wrong place.
So materialism and worship do not go well for me as I feel like a fool trying to impress somebody on how much I can give when I cannot give honest gratitude.

My brother, please study the following three verses from "Bhagwad Gita - [9.26], [9.27], [9.28]".

As Lord Shri Krishna said :

[BG - 9.26] - Whoever offers me with devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, water, I affectionately accept that offering by the pure hearted being.

[BG - 9.27] -O son of Kunti, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in oblation or sacrifice, whatever you give in charity, whatever you practise as austerity, do it as an offering to me.

[BG - 9.28] -In this way by dedicating all your actions unto me, you will be freed from bondage to work and its auspicious and inauspicious results. With your mind fixed on Me in this principle of renunciation, you will be liberated and come to Me.


Truly there is in this world nothing so purifying as knowledge.- (Bhagvad Gita [4.38])

 

[Poeticus]

Sterling-ji,

Your outlook is way too general. Remember what Lord Shri Krishna said: "He who thinks he can rationalize and he who thinks he can apply logic, both mistake".

The Shri Gods haven't told us that they want all those things in a puja; in fact, the only things they have told us on how conduction of any rite should go is in the Brahmanas and that itself has nothing to do with puja.

The only materialism I see in puja is when Vinod or Harry at Ganesh Murtis charges me way too much for puja paraphernalia when I can get certain paraphernalia free at another place.

 

[Sb1995]

I don't consider that materialism. You are making offering's to the God's so if you have the capability to offer more (Flowers,rice) why not do it? If you cannot then no worries the God's will understand.

 

[Sha'irullah]

My brother, please study the following three verses from "Bhagwad Gita - [9.26], [9.27], [9.28]".

As Lord Shri Krishna said :

[BG - 9.26] - Whoever offers me with devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, water, I affectionately accept that offering by the pure hearted being.

[BG - 9.27] -O son of Kunti, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in oblation or sacrifice, whatever you give in charity, whatever you practise as austerity, do it as an offering to me.

[BG - 9.28] -In this way by dedicating all your actions unto me, you will be freed from bondage to work and its auspicious and inauspicious results. With your mind fixed on Me in this principle of renunciation, you will be liberated and come to Me.


Truly there is in this world nothing so purifying as knowledge.- (Bhagvad Gita [4.38])

I have read the Bhagavad Gita numerous times and this is where I am extracting my thoughts from. Did you not find it ironic that my statements match this? :sarcastic

 

[Sha'irullah]

I don't consider that materialism. You are making offering's to the God's so if you have the capability to offer more (Flowers,rice) why not do it? If you cannot then no worries the God's will understand.

It is only materialism if one is reliant upon doing this. If you begin to view it as necessary, nothing is wrong in doing it though which is what I am trying to distinguish.

 

[Jainarayan]

If you feel you have to do something, then it becomes a mindless ritual and a source of stress and resentment. Just an observation.

 

[Sb1995]

It is only materialism if one is reliant upon doing this. If you begin to view it as necessary, nothing is wrong in doing it though which is what I am trying to distinguish.

Well maybe someone is reliant on it because they believe it's the right thing and they're trying their best to offer all they can to bhagwan

 

[Kalidas]

Well maybe someone is reliant on it because they believe it's the right thing and they're trying their best to offer all they can to bhagwan

At this point were just arguing semantics. His point isn't that ritual is wrong, but that if your doing it just because you feel you HAVE to because a book or a person told you and you don't feel or understand WHY then it is materialism. I do not disagree with this.

You can perform the most holy puja in existance but if you have no idea why or the importance of your actions you are just putting on a show

 

[Sha'irullah]

At this point were just arguing semantics. His point isn't that ritual is wrong, but that if your doing it just because you feel you HAVE to because a book or a person told you and you don't feel or understand WHY then it is materialism. I do not disagree with this.

You can perform the most holy puja in existance but if you have no idea why or the importance of your actions you are just putting on a show

When I practiced Sanatana Dharma I had a strong dislike for murti or images of any kind. I found them to be a distraction and unnecessary, but perhaps this was because I was a previous Muslim before this. I just had no need for many of the demands for puja others had obviously

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Nice topic.


My understanding of the puja rituals with all it's offerings and wealth go like this:

When we give these material things to God we are reinforcing a hospitable and generous mindset. The Puja reminds me that all the things I am offering and doing for God - all the small but important offerings - are a reflection of how I am to treat others. Since we all possess the divine spark, I am to treat and serve others with just as much care. In this way, Puja is sort of like practice - preparation for a guest or a person in need.

There are days when I have almost nothing to offer - I've run out of ghee or incense. All I have is the bell and maybe water and uncooked rice. I give these anyway, despite their humble qualities. It reminds me that no matter how little I may think I have, I always have something to give God/Others. There is always enough.

:camp: