Materialism in puja

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

Absolutely count me in ... a homa follwed by 1008 conch shell abhishekham, a series of aarti lights, getting bigger and bigger, a parade, 1008 names, lots of flowers and fruit, live nadeswaram and thavil, incense everywhere, all culminating in this grand rush of energy, and then ..... total silence ... in those first few moments after that grand deal, if you can't feel it then, you never will.

you can count me in too :yes:

all pujaris to the ready ...... I will be thinking of you when I wake the deitys tomorow , they will be very happy ...... homa followed by abhishekham sounds good ....
p.s. my favorite job is decorating the shrine and dressing the deitys for the coming festivities , it takes days of preperation but its amazing , so Id better get a head start , all the girls can go out to select the fruit and othe beautifull offerings ,
flowers , plenty of flowers , and incence , most certainly ....I think we can all feel it simply by thinking about it that is the sign of a true devotee .

I hear you make wonderfull garlands too , jai jai ... that is love :namaste

 

[Sha'irullah]

namaskaram mr archer :namaste

having read your last responce I decided to re read your original post ,

as you say in your ...''9 months as a hindu ''......''one of the major issues'' you have ......is with other people and their practices ???

I can only suggest that 9 months is not sufficient a time for you to understand the devotion behind puja , for many people 9 years is not enough and even at 18 years a person still feels he is learning .....how come after 9 months you ''know''..so certainly...'' that a deity is no more sacred than a tree '' ???

This is a sign of immaturity as you claimed that the idol is the deity. This cannot be supported scripturally nor did I say I had 9 months of knowledge about Hindus yet alone Hinduism. You are not actually reading my posts.

from your comments it would seem that you feel entitled to form an opinion despite by your own admittion you lack actual knowledge , this to me would be a little foolish , or prehaps imature ?

I did not admit to a lack of knowledge. My opinion is formed the other way around.

you ask this question , but when you are given perfectly legitimate answers from experienced devotees , you take little from their sincere answers and seek only to push your own opinion .

Very few of the answers have been remotely answering my questions, they stray off topic and yours being the most consistent.

I have never claimed that puja is unnecessary or any of the claims you are saying I am implying, you have not actually understood my question at all. Only 2 people have gotten it and I won't give names .

no spiritual progress will be made by anyone whilst they stand in judgement of others , Only when one has the courage to look at oneself will any progress be made ,

You are actually judging. You have to understand what I am saying and I am not being rude just straightforward.
You have not even grasped the concept of my questions so truthfully you have nothing to analyze about me if you cannot grasp my questions.

Maybe you are just reading the thread title and not the explanatory words provided in the OP.

prehaps rather than looking at the practice of others , youshould examine your own at least here if you find fault you may efectively make suitable changes .

Irrelevant, I am trying to find answers and opinion on a certain matter

I think it is said ..... ''judge not least you be judged ''

But you are judging and not realizing that you are doing so with little knowledge of the person at hand :yes:.
I just do not see how so many people can entirely miss the relevancy of what I am trying to say and have such affirmation of this despite my constant corrections

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Never never never!!!! Only those who take great joy in the overabundance of ritual like some crazy menagerie of sounds, sights, smells, and tastes.

Well, you do have a shiny new award so you must be right!

:camp:

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram mr archer :namaste

Ratikala
I can only suggest that 9 months is not sufficient a time for you to understand the devotion behind puja , for many people 9 years is not enough and even at 18 years a person still feels he is learning .....how come after 9 months you ''know''..so certainly...'' that a deity is no more sacred than a tree '' ???

This is a sign of immaturity as you claimed that the idol is the deity. This cannot be supported scripturally nor did I say I had 9 months of knowledge about Hindus yet alone Hinduism. You are not actually reading my posts.

you seem to be mistaking humility for immaturity .
and yes I have read your post twice and very carefully , you said in a later post that you had been a practicing hindu for nine months .

if you read carefully you will also note that I said ... ''how come after 9 months you ''know''..so certainly...'' that a deity is no more sacred than a tree '' ???'' you may assume from this that I am refering to the nine months you claim to have been practicing .

prehaps you would like to answer this question so I will clarify it for you , ....how come after 9 months of practicing as a hindu you ''know''..so certainly...'' that a deity is no more sacred than a tree '' ???

how do you know this with such certainty ???

I did not admit to a lack of knowledge. My opinion is formed the other way around.

then please explain what knowledge you have ? and why you conciser this knowledge to be knowledge upon which you feel you can be so decicive ?

I have never claimed that puja is unnecessary or any of the claims you are saying I am implying, you have not actually understood my question at all. Only 2 people have gotten it and I won't give names .

your questions are more like statments

I have ''got '' ....exactly what you are saying , you just do not like my replys .

You are actually judging. You have to understand what I am saying and I am not being rude just straightforward.
You have not even grasped the concept of my questions so truthfully you have nothing to analyze about me if you cannot grasp my questions.

thinking that you can pass coment on other peoples devotions when you canot see into their hearts is not streightforward it is presumptious .

Irrelevant, I am trying to find answers and opinion on a certain matter

how does discussing and holding oppinions further any ones spiritual advancement ?

and to seek to encorage others to indulge in discussing oppinion is tantamount to spiritual procrastination .

But you are judging and not realizing that you are doing so with little knowledge of the person at hand :yes:.

I realise exactly what I am doing , ....I am not judging you I am trying to warn you of the 'aparadha' you are commiting by questioning the devotion of others .

 

[Kalidas]

This is a sign of immaturity as you claimed that the idol is the deity. This cannot be supported scripturally nor did I say I had 9 months of knowledge about Hindus yet alone Hinduism. You are not actually reading my posts.





I did not admit to a lack of knowledge. My opinion is formed the other way around.



Very few of the answers have been remotely answering my questions, they stray off topic and yours being the most consistent.

I have never claimed that puja is unnecessary or any of the claims you are saying I am implying, you have not actually understood my question at all. Only 2 people have gotten it and I won't give names .




You are actually judging. You have to understand what I am saying and I am not being rude just straightforward.
You have not even grasped the concept of my questions so truthfully you have nothing to analyze about me if you cannot grasp my questions.

Maybe you are just reading the thread title and not the explanatory words provided in the OP.



Irrelevant, I am trying to find answers and opinion on a certain matter



But you are judging and not realizing that you are doing so with little knowledge of the person at hand :yes:.
I just do not see how so many people can entirely miss the relevancy of what I am trying to say and have such affirmation of this despite my constant corrections

I will attempt to bridge the gap that is causing this misunderstanding.

His thread title is a little misleading but don't let it fool you into thinking he is saying "Puja is materialism, and materialism is bad". I think many of us here find materialism as bad, to be obsessed with what we have and not why we have it is an issue, yes?

His particular issue is materialism that can seep into puja. It's those people who feel they MUST add EVERYTHING into their daily worship with little to no understanding as to why or how it works. I am sure the Gods enjoy a party, bet I know what they like better: a good party host. Think of it as inviting them to your house as so many do. You have left some food, given them a shower, laid out clothes for them, lit some nice candles, made the guest room smell nice. But where are you! They can not find you, uh oh you spent so much time getting ready for the party you fell asleep and forgot to spend time with them! Now you both walk away unhappy, unfulfilled, and sad. Yes do puja, yes treat the Gods as you would any guest (better even!), but don't forget why they come around in the first place, its to see their favorite person YOU! Don't let the obsession of materials and items take away from the experience. Also know why you are doing what you are doing. There are a few things I know I "should do" for my Kali puja but I don't because I don't understand the deep meaningful reason behind it, I'm not here to put on a show for others I am doing this for her and myself a little. If I can not with a full heart do something for her and know why I am doing it, I have no right doing it.

At least I think that is what he was getting at.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram fire side ji:namaste

Oh, pish posh - never? Maybe just not in this lifetime. Eventually, everyone will get there right?

maybe not in this lifetime maybe not in a million lifetimes ....but the lord is mercifull eventualy he will send ..(manifest as)..Kalki to chop of their heads , that way they will eventualy gain liberation :namaste

But I second the notion about frills and high energy - lights and bells! One of the most wonderful things about ritual in Hinduism is that it is celebratory and joyful. We are allowed to celebrate God rather then be forever solemn in his shadow. There is time for silence of course - but I'd like to think that God enjoys a good party.

:camp:

most certainly he does (they do) .... that I can promice you :namaste

 

[Sha'irullah]

I will attempt to bridge the gap that is causing this misunderstanding.

His thread title is a little misleading but don't let it fool you into thinking he is saying "Puja is materialism, and materialism is bad". I think many of us here find materialism as bad, to be obsessed with what we have and not why we have it is an issue, yes?

His particular issue is materialism that can seep into puja. It's those people who feel they MUST add EVERYTHING into their daily worship with little to no understanding as to why or how it works. I am sure the Gods enjoy a party, bet I know what they like better: a good party host. Think of it as inviting them to your house as so many do. You have left some food, given them a shower, laid out clothes for them, lit some nice candles, made the guest room smell nice. But where are you! They can not find you, uh oh you spent so much time getting ready for the party you fell asleep and forgot to spend time with them! Now you both walk away unhappy, unfulfilled, and sad. Yes do puja, yes treat the Gods as you would any guest (better even!), but don't forget why they come around in the first place, its to see their favorite person YOU! Don't let the obsession of materials and items take away from the experience. Also know why you are doing what you are doing. There are a few things I know I "should do" for my Kali puja but I don't because I don't understand the deep meaningful reason behind it, I'm not here to put on a show for others I am doing this for her and myself a little. If I can not with a full heart do something for her and know why I am doing it, I have no right doing it.

At least I think that is what he was getting at.

This is exactly what I am have been trying to state....repeatedly.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram lemaster ji :namaste

I will attempt to bridge the gap that is causing this misunderstanding.

bless you for being so level headed and kind

His thread title is a little misleading but don't let it fool you into thinking he is saying "Puja is materialism, and materialism is bad". I think many of us here find materialism as bad, to be obsessed with what we have and not why we have it is an issue, yes?

I am not fooled , I understand what he is saying

His particular issue is materialism that can seep into puja. It's those people who feel they MUST add EVERYTHING into their daily worship with little to no understanding as to why or how it works. I am sure the Gods enjoy a party, bet I know what they like better: a good party host. Think of it as inviting them to your house as so many do. You have left some food, given them a shower, laid out clothes for them, lit some nice candles, made the guest room smell nice. But where are you! They can not find you, uh oh you spent so much time getting ready for the party you fell asleep and forgot to spend time with them! Now you both walk away unhappy, unfulfilled, and sad. Yes do puja, yes treat the Gods as you would any guest (better even!), but don't forget why they come around in the first place, its to see their favorite person YOU! Don't let the obsession of materials and items take away from the experience. Also know why you are doing what you are doing. There are a few things I know I "should do" for my Kali puja but I don't because I don't understand the deep meaningful reason behind it, I'm not here to put on a show for others I am doing this for her and myself a little. If I can not with a full heart do something for her and know why I am doing it, I have no right doing it.

At least I think that is what he was getting at.

I am not in the least objecting to this side of the arguement what I am strongly objecting to is the assumption ....'' that a deity is no more sacred than a tree '' ???

and the simple fact that many devotees perform puja which from the outside may appear materialistic , but because they have no attatchment to the material aspect ofthat offering is entirely pure . ...simple fact ... you canot and should not judge anothers serva . it is an 'aparadha' (an offence)

 

[Kalidas]

namaskaram lemaster ji :namaste



bless you for being so level headed and kind
I am not fooled , I understand what he is saying

I am not in the least objecting to this side of the arguement what I am strongly objecting to is the assumption ....'' that a deity is no more sacred than a tree '' ???

and the simple fact that many devotees perform puja which from the outside may appear materialistic , but because they have no attatchment to the material aspect ofthat offering is entirely pure . ...simple fact ... you canot and should not judge anothers serva . it is an 'aparadha' (an offence)

so not sure if you were being sarcastic there or not so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say tank you and your welcome lol.

The word "fool" was figurative not literal

I am not sure if he meant the deity is or the idol is...either way NOT touching that subject.

Correct it does appear to be. I think he has a fairly good grasp on what the objects mean. I also think he understands some people don't. I think this was meant to be an open conversation about the importance of the objects and to help make sure people don't fall into the "dogma trap". IE "I do it because I need to do it, not because I understand it." Not a bad conversation if you ask me.

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

I often feel that I HAVE to do something. I guess it's all become mindless ritual. Oh well. (Like I HAD to go to India, HAD to change my name, etc.)

Bad luck that you didn't meet Archer Ji earlier

So my inability to understand the usage of murti and excessive desire for physical interactions for the non physical are placed primarily on Deistic philosophy of the past and not on my previous Islamic creed.

The Deity (all of them actually) has a manifestation within Matter. What we see as plain Matter is made of the dynamic imprints of the Deities- all of them.
So what we call "Matter" is itself a Deity, named Bhaga in Veda. Bhaga contains all that we see around us: objects, space, time, motion. We live in the material world of Bhaga.
And within himself He is capable of showing all the other Deities, in some way. The DNA of a Deity is:- All Deities (ViSveDevAh).
When a Deities thus shows all-Deities within him/herself, he/she is called "Asura" in the Veda. It is not difficult to find out that each Deity is praised in our texts- in one context or the other- as supreme and others are shown as being subservient/ contained within the Deity.

A murthy is the aspiration of Matter (within the sculptor, and within the bhakta) to expand furthermore and show up the Deities as they ARE.

And after the "pujA" this is achieved, by a bit.

p.s.: the correct word is "mechanistic", not "materialistic"; And as some posters have pointed out earlier, we need to be mechanistic (yes we need to be) on many days when we are not so inspired or creative. I am happy that it is there among the Hindus: they persisted with the mechanistic motions even when- forget need or no need, realisation or ignorance, creativity or stupidity- as a culture they went thorough phases of existential threats. Some call it "superstition", others may name it "materialistic", yet some other "ritualistic" or "mechanistic", for me it is FAITH, stupid:thud: