Maternal Lineage (Judaism)

[Shermana]

It's been said that being Jewish and Judaism does not have any "racial element" (by some).

How does that jive with the idea of the emphasis on Maternal Lineage?

 

[Levite]

It's been said that being Jewish and Judaism does not have any "racial element" (by some).

How does that jive with the idea of the emphasis on Maternal Lineage?

Despite the fact that it comes from the Ohr Somayach website, and I am not a fan of Ohr Somayach, this is actually a pretty concise and accurate basic summary of the active precedents of matrilineal descent in halachah, as well as the lack of positive precedents for patrilineal descent.

I have said often that Judaism is neither a religion nor a race, but a socioreligious ethnicity: a group entity whose parameters and boundaries combine various elements of religion, ethnicity, and national society, all in one, inextricably.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Poor Gershom.

 

[Shermana]

nor a race, but a socioreligious ethnicity:

What's the difference between a race and a "Socio-religious" ethnicity? I've heard plenty of Rabbis who say that even Atheist Jews are still Jews if they're born of a Jewish mother.

From your site:

The Mishna in Tractate Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.

How does that NOT say there's a racial/"ethnic" element?

 

[Harmonious]

What's the difference between a race and a "Socio-religious" ethnicity? I've heard plenty of Rabbis who say that even Atheist Jews are still Jews if they're born of a Jewish mother.

From your site:

The Mishna in Tractate Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.

How does that NOT say there's a racial/"ethnic" element?

That just determines whether a person is BORN Jewish. There is nothing to say that if a non-Jew is interested in becoming Jewish, he or she can't put in the effort to become Jewish.

 

[Harmonious]

Despite the fact that it comes from the Ohr Somayach website, and I am not a fan of Ohr Somayach, this is actually a pretty concise and accurate basic summary of the active precedents of matrilineal descent in halachah, as well as the lack of positive precedents for patrilineal descent.

I have said often that Judaism is neither a religion nor a race, but a socioreligious ethnicity: a group entity whose parameters and boundaries combine various elements of religion, ethnicity, and national society, all in one, inextricably.

Thank you for this link. I DO like Ohr Somayach.

 

[Harmonious]

Poor Gershom.

I don't understand. I feel like I should. Help me out, please.

 

[Shermana]

That just determines whether a person is BORN Jewish. There is nothing to say that if a non-Jew is interested in becoming Jewish, he or she can't put in the effort to become Jewish.

Okay so if a person is BORN Jewish, why is he still Jewish even if he becomes Atheist for the rest of his life?

 

[Tarheeler]

What's the difference between a race and a "Socio-religious" ethnicity? I've heard plenty of Rabbis who say that even Atheist Jews are still Jews if they're born of a Jewish mother.

From your site:

How does that NOT say there's a racial/"ethnic" element?

Because "race" and "ethnicity" are not synonyms.

Race requires genetic similarity to the group while ethnicity does not.
Ethnicity is a much larger category, and can include groupings based on genetic similarity, language, religion, shared history, geographical location, or common culture.

The very fact that Jews can be of any "race", and that converts are not only accepted, but their children are accepted through maternal descent is evidence that there isn't a racial requirement.

 

[Shermana]

Okay fine, so converts still count, no problem there. But the children of the mother are still considered Jewish regardless if they are Atheist and born from a Japanese convert. So why does the child count as Jewish? How is that not still a racial element? When did the child of the convert decide to be a Jew? In the womb? Why not an adopted child of a Jewish woman?

And does this apply to the forbidden races like Moabites and Canaanites?

Clearly, there's still a difference between an adopted child among Jewish parents and the direct descendent of the Jewish mother, regardless if she's a convert.

 

[Tarheeler]

Okay fine, so converts still count, no problem there. But the children of the mother are still considered Jewish regardless if they are Atheist and born from a Japanese convert. So why does the child count as Jewish? How is that not still a racial element?

And does this apply to the forbidden races like Moabites and Canaanites?

Because he was born into an ethnic group, based at least in part on religion, that accepts him as such. And there is no racial element because his race is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he's Caucasian, African, or Asian.

It's much like a large, extended family. When I go to a reunion, there are Irishmen, Germans, Frenchmen, Englishmen, and Scots. We have Cherokee, Blackfoot, and Apache. We have Filipinos, Japanese, Chinese, Thai, African Americans, Iranians, and Turks. And we all belong to same family. Some of us are born family and some are married in, but are all part of the same group and our children will be counted as well (whether they want to be or not, lol).

 

[Shermana]

So why not an adopted child? Why must one be "born into" the "Ethnicity" (and the definition of ethnicity is more of an add on from race, i.e. Germans and French are different ethnicities but still the same race, whereas Japanese and Germans are not ever going to be called the same ethnicity) but not applicable if you're adopted at an early age?

 

[Shermana]

Also, has this always been the case or is this a recent development? I'd like to see some Talmud on this issue.

 

[Harmonious]

Okay so if a person is BORN Jewish, why is he still Jewish even if he becomes Atheist for the rest of his life?

Just because a Jew doesn't observe the commandments doesn't make them stop being a Jew. Simply not believing in God doesn't make a person stop being a Jew. Torah observance is on a sliding scale of success of adherence, or even belief. Some Jews just have more success in fulfilling their commandments than others.

Actively believing in someone ELSE'S God - THAT makes a person stop being a Jew.

 

[Harmonious]

Okay fine, so converts still count, no problem there. But the children of the mother are still considered Jewish regardless if they are Atheist and born from a Japanese convert. So why does the child count as Jewish? How is that not still a racial element? When did the child of the convert decide to be a Jew?

The thing is, you are asking the wrong question.

Once a person converts to Judaism, they are a Jew in all aspects. That means that if a woman converts to Judaism, her children are as Jewish as any other born Jew.

Born Jews don't get a choice to be Jewish. They just are.

Why not an adopted child of a Jewish woman?

I don't understand the question.

And does this apply to the forbidden races like Moabites and Canaanites?

Considering that we have no idea who they are anymore, I'm going to take a stab at this and say no.

Clearly, there's still a difference between an adopted child among Jewish parents and the direct descendent of the Jewish mother, regardless if she's a convert.

The only real difference is whether or not the son has a tribe.

And when you consider that the only tribes that really make a difference are Cohen (which is a subset of Levi), Levi, and the family of David which is from Judah, every other Jew is lumped into the catch-all tribe of Yisrael, as for most halachic purposes, it doesn't matter whether a Jew comes from Judah, Benjamin, or Yissachar.

 

[Harmonious]

Also, has this always been the case or is this a recent development? I'd like to see some Talmud on this issue.

I'm not a Talmud scholar, but I can ask someone and get back to you on this.

 

[Tarheeler]

So why not an adopted child? Why must one be "born into" the "Ethnicity" (and the definition of ethnicity is more of an add on from race, i.e. Germans and French are different ethnicities but still the same race, whereas Japanese and Germans are not ever going to be called the same ethnicity) but not applicable if you're adopted at an early age?

Ethnicity is not an "add on" from race; it can be in tandem with race, or it can completely separate from it; German and a Japanese can very well be the same ethnicity depending on the basis of the ethnic group. As for an adopted child, one it has undergone a halachic conversion, it is just as Jewish as its adopted parents.

 

[Shermana]

I understand that an adopted child can go through conversion, that's not my question.



My question is why does a newborn of a Jewish convert count but not an adopted? Why must the adopted child go through conversion but not the newborn?


Every definition of Ethnicity I've seen says that it's a subdivision of the concept of "race".

Difference Between Ethnicity and Race | Difference Between | Ethnicity vs Race

This basically implies that Ethnicity is an "Enhanced" definition of race into sub-groups. I'd like to see a single source that says Japanese and Germans can be of the same Ethnicity.

I've seen government forms that ask for "Ethnicity" and ask if you're black or asian or whatever, so apparently not even the government is clued in on this alleged difference.

By all means otherwise show a single definition of ethnicity that discludes "Race" as the foundation.

 

[Shermana]

The thing is, you are asking the wrong question.

What is the right question?

Once a person converts to Judaism, they are a Jew in all aspects. That means that if a woman converts to Judaism, her children are as Jewish as any other born Jew.

Okay, that's been established already.

Born Jews don't get a choice to be Jewish. They just are.

Okay, that's the main issue of the question. Why does a Jew stay Jewish even if they choose another religion?

I don't understand the question.

What don't you understand? An adopted child, even at 1 year old, must be converted but a blood-born child even of a convert doesn't have to be.

Considering that we have no idea who they are anymore, I'm going to take a stab at this and say no.

Fair enough. There's no way to really know without Prophetic intervention.

The only real difference is whether or not the son has a tribe.

I don't think I understand. When does a convert have a tribe? Why does a newborn have a tribe but not an adopted child?

And when you consider that the only tribes that really make a difference are Cohen (which is a subset of Levi), Levi, and the family of David which is from Judah, every other Jew is lumped into the catch-all tribe of Yisrael, as for most halachic purposes, it doesn't matter whether a Jew comes from Judah, Benjamin, or Yissachar.

Well clearly by the fact that Levites and Aaronites have a racial element involved, that alone proves there is in fact SOME racial element in our Tribal system. A person can't just be adopted as a Cohen.

 

[Harmonious]

I understand that an adopted child can go through conversion, that's not my question.



My question is why does a newborn of a Jewish convert count but not an adopted?

Because the newborn of a convert is born Jewish.

Why must the adopted child go through conversion but not the newborn?

Because if the child was not born Jewish, the child has no obligation to become Jewish. I know a few people who, upon learning that they were not actually Jewish because they were adopted, decided that they would do better not AS Jews, but as Children of Noah, which are what non-Jews are, according to the Torah.

The one I know best is knowledgeable in Torah law, and teaches in a Jewish Sunday school. It is how she feels it is best for her to serve God.