Maternal Lineage (Judaism)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well Jay if you had bothered to actually read anything I said, you'd notice that i ALREADY agreed that directly born children of converts are Jewish.

Nice dance, but getting back to your "Racial element," Shermana, I'm still waiting for an answer to the"

... imagine a husband and wife converting to Judaism and then having a child. Your options are:

• The parents changed their race when they converted.
• The child is a different race than his or her parents.
• The child is not a real Jew.

Which is it: a, b, or c?

 

[Shermana]

Nice dance, but getting back to your "Racial element," Shermana, I'm still waiting for an answer to the"Which is it: a, b, or c?

Nice dance? Are you really this dishonest? . I clearly said that the blood-born child of a convert is considered a "real Jew". And no, the Child's race has not changed. Or the parents. This is what I mean by "had you actually read my post". And notice that you left that answer of your multiple choice. Gee, why could that be?

In fact, the very question you ask....is KIND of the same question I've been trying to get an answer out of YOU guys from. So why are you asking ME to answer the question I came here to ask?

Now as for your own great dancing, you're deliberately avoiding the issue at stake here, that an adopted newborn doesn't have the same status as a natural-bloodborn newborn.

Thus, the adopted newborn, according to this, is not a "Real Jew". As to the "race", that's a vague issue. But regardless, if there's a "bloodline factor" involved, there's some definition o f "race" at play. And thus this requires a discussion on what "race" means.

To be honest, I don't think converts are of the same racial makeup that Jews can be identified with for the most part by Genetic markers. Thus, they are only "ETHNICALLY" Jews as Levite and Tarheeler used the term "Ethnicity" (which is not how the word is officially used in America or by the American government btw). I prefer the term "Culturally" which doesn't really have a "Racial foundation".

And your total dodge out of the Levite and Aaronite issue didn't work. It's still a pure-bloodline-only factor as to who can be a Priest.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nice dance? Are you really this dishonest? . I clearly said that the blood-born child of a convert is considered a "real Jew". And no, the Child's race has not changed. Or the parents.

So what is the "Racial element" of this now Jewish child?

 

[Shermana]

So what is the "Racial element" of this now Jewish child?

The fact that he has a "pure bloodline" (or whatever loaded term we want to use for the same idea) that stems from a Convert, or member of the "Culture" makes him clearly distinguished from the adopted bloodborn.

Regardless if the converted parents are "racially Jews", (i.e. can be identified as "ethnic" (in the way "ethnic" is used normally and officially in America and not some PC revisionist meaning) Jews with genetic testing) or not, there is indeed a CLEAR difference between the bloodline of one born from the "Officially converted Member of the culture" and one who isn't.

So like I said, we can abandon this term "Race" since it seems to be so undefined and "loaded", but we can still apply elements of the concept.

There's a difference between a "bloodborn member" of the "culture" and an adopted one. What is that to be called if not "race"?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The fact that he has a "pure bloodline" (or whatever loaded term we want to use for the same idea) that stems from a Convert, or member of the "Culture" makes him clearly distinguished from the adopted bloodborn.

... pure bloodline

... clearly distinguished from the adopted bloodborn

God is that sick.

 

[Harmonious]

I don't know. I hope not, but quite possibly.

Because the newborn of a convert is born Jewish.

Because if the child was not born Jewish, the child has no obligation to become Jewish. I know a few people who, upon learning that they were not actually Jewish because they were adopted, decided that they would do better not AS Jews, but as Children of Noah, which are what non-Jews are, according to the Torah.

The one I know best is knowledgeable in Torah law, and teaches in a Jewish Sunday school. It is how she feels it is best for her to serve God.

Yeah, by pointing out that Levites and Cohenites and Maternal Lineage is all biological transmission of Judaism whereas an adopted Newborn must be converted, I'm attempting to portray Judaism as a totally racist enterprise rather than discussing a Theological matter.

There is no need to get snarky and nasty with me. I've answered all of your questions as honestly and completely as I'm able.

Rather than wanting to have a civil discussion on what exactly is the reason behind this concept and seeing if there's any Talmud or Midrash to explain it...

And as I said before, I will ask and get back to you on this.

Please forgive me for not understanding your motives. That was why I asked you.

Not like I just wanted a straight answer to a simple question to a point of contention.

I've tried to give you one, and I've had difficulty understanding why my answers were insufficient.

And of course, the fact that Levites and Cohenites cannot be made from converts, there's absolutely NO "racial" factor involved with the religion. None. Because "biological" and "race" mean something different....somehow....somewhere.

And I've expressed that you are right, there IS a biological component. But I've also expressed that the biological component is by no means the only important component in transmitting Judaism.

And as for Gershom, if anything that just proves that the Maternal Lineage concept goes against the Torah itself

There is a difference in Jewish law before and after Sinai. After all, the laws of inheritance and tribal affiliation weren't given until Numbers when the Jews were near the end of the 40 years in the Desert.

Again - please forgive me for doubting your motives, but you seem inordinately stuck on the concept of race, and I can't imagine a complimentary reason why.

Why is the concept of race so important to you?

 

[Shermana]

... pure bloodline

... clearly distinguished from the adopted bloodborn

God is that sick.

What's sick is that you're totally avoiding the facts being discussed and resorting to inflammatory attacks to cover the evasion.

Are you denying that a bloodborn Newborn is considered a "Real Jew" while an adopted one isn't? Or just running away?

 

[Shermana]

There is no need to get snarky and nasty with me. I've answered all of your questions as honestly and completely as I'm able.

And then you accused me of accusing you of being racists, so my snark is not exactly coming out of nowhere.

Why is the concept of race so important to you?

Because it seems there's a concerted effort to dodge out of the fact that we as an "Ethnic" people are in fact bound by certain racial factors. It appears the concept of "race" being involved, to some instantly conjures ideas of Nazism.

I've tried to give you one, and I've had difficulty understanding why my answers were insufficient.

The sufficient answer you gave was "We don't know, it just is" and I asked for a Rabbinical/Talmudic commentary on the idea that "Maternal lineage is easier to verify" being the concept at hand.

And as I said, this concept may totally fly in the face of what the Torah itself may imply of a Paternal lineage.

I do like what Jay posted about how the shift to Maternalism seems to have been a bit arbitrary.

 

[Harmonious]

So what exactly is the term to use for a Religion that involves a Priesthood that does NOT accept converts and ONLY accepts those who have "the right bloodline"

For the record, a born Jew not from the Sons of Aaron can't be Cohanim, either. It isn't discrimination against non-Jews. It is that God has given different tasks to different Jews to accomplish.

Cohanim are the priestly class. Yup, they are. But they are forbidden to belong to the Burial Society, or to even visit the cemetery to visit a loved one. Daughters from different tribes can marry into any other tribe, but Cohanim have special rules about whom they can marry, above and beyond the rules that define who any Jewish guy is allowed to marry.

and considers an adopted newborn NOT a "real Jew" that must be converted

That's right. Like any person born a non-Jew, the adopted child has the option to choose. But it seems that you ignored me when I explained that the adopted child has an easier convesion process than a random non-Jew who is interested.

but considers a bloodline-born Jew (from an adopted convert as well) a "real Jew"?

Consistent. Born non-Jews have no obligation to do more than the Seven Noachide Laws. This is true, whether said non-Jew is 5 or 50.

However, the adopted child is treated like a Jewish child until Bar or Bat Mitzvah age, when the child is old enough to understand the choice.

I think there's nothing wrong whatsoever with admitting this "Bloodline" factor (perhaps "Bloodline-ist" is better than 'racial"?).

Fine. We've covered that. It still doesn't explain why this is so very important to you.

And as Jay pointed out (a good point in the midst of the dodgery), doesn't Gershom kinda disprove the Maternal-only thing?

As I said before, no. There is a difference between before and after Sinai. Moses being married to Tzipporah happened before Sinai.

 

[Shermana]

For the record, a born Jew not from the Sons of Aaron can't be Cohanim, either. It isn't discrimination against non-Jews. It is that God has given different tasks to different Jews to accomplish.

Okay, I'm not saying anything about discrimination or it being a bad thing. I think it's a GOOD thing. But I also see that it's a touchy issue that some people don't want to accept. But regardless, there is in fact a biological component to this crucial, vital element of historical Judaism. It didn't just change overnight because Providence decided to be more PC.

Cohanim are the priestly class. Yup, they are. But they are forbidden to belong to the Burial Society, or to even visit the cemetery to visit a loved one. Daughters from different tribes can marry into any other tribe, but Cohanim have special rules about whom they can marry, above and beyond the rules that define who any Jewish guy is allowed to marry.

Right. Which is further demonstration that there is indeed some sort of "racial" factor in this "segregated" element of Jewish religion and society. It's not a bad thing. It's not a "Third Reich Mentality" to recognize this.

That's right. Like any person born a non-Jew, the adopted child has the option to choose. But it seems that you ignored me when I explained that the adopted child has an easier convesion process than a random non-Jew who is interested.

What do you mean I ignored? What's the relevance?

Consistent. Born non-Jews have no obligation to do more than the Seven Noachide Laws. This is true, whether said non-Jew is 5 or 50.

Okay, relevance?

However, the adopted child is treated like a Jewish child until Bar or Bat Mitzvah age, when the child is old enough to understand the choice.

That's fine, but there's still nonetheless a major difference between the "Bloodborn" and the Adopted.

Fine. We've covered that. It still doesn't explain why this is so very important to you.

I'm sorry if that doesn't explain it. What answer are you looking for, that I'm trying to paint you all as racists? Maybe I'm a racist. Who cares. It's not the issue of contention. If anything I just want to see what the reasons are for this purely Biological factor and how the arguments against it stand up.

As I said before, no. There is a difference between before and after Sinai. Moses being married to Tzipporah happened before Sinai.

There are different opinions on that.

Analytical Adam's Blog: Paternal vs. Maternal Lineage. In general the torah views it by the father.(Part 1) Daughters of Zlepchad

Some of course will say, well once the Jews received the torah everything changed. That is in basically another replacement theology theory that receiving the torah on Mount Sinai makes prior contracts that God made null and void but then why even have this part of the torah if that is the case. Start with receiving the Torah. Obviously the torah is to add a covenant with Israel while keeping the general covenant with all nations.

 

[Harmonious]

And then you accused me of accusing you of being racists, so my snark is not exactly coming out of nowhere.

I accused you of nothing. I ASKED if Jay's perception of your motivation (which, prima facia, seem valid) was true. Jay's observation made sense, so I asked you, hoping Jay was wrong.

Doubting that he was is not accusing you of being racist. Honestly - it seems that you are accusing traditional Jews if being racist.

Because it seems there's a concerted effort to dodge out of the fact that we as an "Ethnic" people are in fact bound by certain racial factors. It appears the concept of "race" being involved, to some instantly conjures ideas of Nazism.

Well, yes.

The last people to speak of "the Jewish race" were Nazis and Nazi sympathizers. You hit an emotionally hot button. There is a reason you are being given a hard time over this.

However, I have not joined that bandwagon. Pay attention.

The sufficient answer you gave was "We don't know, it just is" and I asked for a Rabbinical/Talmudic commentary on the idea that "Maternal lineage is easier to verify" being the concept at hand.

I said I'd get back to you. I haven't had a chance to ask around yet. I hope to have some answers in a few days.

And as I said, this concept may totally fly in the face of what the Torah itself may imply of a Paternal lineage.

Not likely.

 

[Flankerl]

As we can see, the word "race" here is in question and isn't exactly a clearly defined term, much like the arbitrary uses of "Ethnicity" which Tarheeler tried to force a particular (non-American-used) definition.

Oh my i hope it doesnt infringe on your freedom that people outside of the US(who are the majority BY THE WAY) dare to have own definitions.

We are sorry.

 

[Shermana]

Well apparently we have modern scientists who are agreeing to the idea of a Jewish race so....

Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal


If a "genetic signature" doesn't constitute race, then you'll have to explain what "race" means.

 

[Shermana]

Oh my i hope it doesnt infringe on your freedom that people outside of the US(who are the majority BY THE WAY) dare to have own definitions.

We are sorry.

You don't understand, there's a difference between having different definitions, and forcing those different definitions as the official one while rejecting the conventional (and official) regional usage of the term.

Let me know if anyone can help Tarheeler find a single site that says Germans and Japanese can be of the same ethnicity, I'd love to see it.

 

[Harmonious]

What do you mean I ignored? What's the relevance?

The relevance is that it isn't hard for an adopted child to become Jewish.

YES, there is a difference between Jews and non-Jews. I've said it. That is the difference between a born Jew and a non-Jewish child adopted by Jews.

I've implied this multiple times. What more are you looking for, besides the explanation and Medrashim I told you I have yet to find for you?

That's fine, but there's still nonetheless a major difference between the "Bloodborn" and the Adopted.

Explained in the line above.

There are different opinions on that.

Analytical Adam's Blog: Paternal vs. Maternal Lineage. In general the torah views it by the father.(Part 1) Daughters of Zlepchad

Very nice. Are you also going to say that Jacob violated Torah law by marrying sisters? In Leviticus, it is quite clear that a Jewish man is forbidden to marry two sisters while the first sister is alive.

Or can you accept that the entire Torah wasn't given until Sinai, so Jewish law looked different before and after Sinai?

ETA: I have no idea of the validity of the opinion in the article you linked to. That perspective seems overly critical of traditional Judaism, so I hope you will forgive me for not taking it too seriously.

 

[Shermana]

More importantly, your book of Ruth (which I think is a forgery personally that doesn't belong in the Tanakh) clearly implies Paternal descent, or do you think Jesse was not a legitimate natural-born Jew? Or do you think Ruth was really an Israelite just living in the land of Moab?

 

[Harmonious]

More importantly, your book of Ruth (which I think is a forgery personally that doesn't belong in the Tanakh)

That is a personal problem on your part.

clearly implies Paternal descent, or do you think Jesse was not a legitimate natural-born Jew? Or do you think Ruth was really an Israelite just living in the land of Moab?

Jesse was a naturally born Jew. Ruth was a convert to Judaism.

The point is that the mothers of the men listed were Jewish. But as far as tribal affiliation, that is a patralineal line.

 

[Shermana]

That is a personal problem on your part.

I guess its also a personal problem for the scholars who agree to this too. So if I have a Theological text-based disagreement, it's a personal problem on my part? Was it a personal problem for the Rabbis who didn't want to include Qoholeth back in the day?

Jesse was a naturally born Jew. Ruth was a convert to Judaism.

Where does it say she made the full conversion? In the Talmud?

The point is that the mothers of the men listed were Jewish. But as far as tribal affiliation, that is a patralineal line

So then, at what point did being "Jewish" go from a tribal-based classification system for all the Hebrew tribes to a catch-all for anyone who converted including the "righteous strangers"?

Deuteronomy 7:1-5 discourages Non-Jewish men marrying Jewish women, on the idea that the non-Jewish male will cause the child to turn away from God. But it does not say so for a Jewish man marrying a Non-Jewish woman.

But....., on the previous subject feel free to explain why the foreign wives in Ezra 10:2-3 weren't even given the chance to convert. Why were they just cast away?

YES, there is a difference between Jews and non-Jews. I've said it. That is the difference netween a born Jew and a non-Jewish child adopted by Jews.

Now what term can we use to describe this difference? At what point does "Biological" differ from "Racial"?

 

[Harmonious]

You know, Shermana, I am running out of patience. I'm trying to give you honest answers, and it sounds like you are only trying to catch me out.

Change your tone, or I'll put you on Ignore.

I guess its also a personal problem for the scholars who agree to this too. So if I have a Theological text-based disagreement, it's a personal problem on my part? Was it a personal problem for the Rabbis who didn't want to include Qoholeth back in the day?

I don't know what scholars you are referring to who are currently disputing the validity of Ruth.

This has nothing to do with the scholars who, before the canon was decided, disputed Kohelet. They disputed it, and at the end of the day, even the disputants agreed and accepted it into canon.

You and your recent "scholars" have no call to put into question what has been considered holy for thousands of years, unless you want to display your utter disdain and contempt for Jewish tradition.

I suppose that is your right, but then I would have the right to not take you seriously, if at all.

Where does it say she made the full conversion? In the Talmud?

I imagine you missed the whole iconic verse 1:16 which says: But Ruth said, "Do not urge me to leave you, to turn back from following you. For where you go, I will go; where you will lodge, I will lodge; your people are my people, and your God is my God..."

That is a declaration of intent. If you need further clarification that Ruth converted, then you might need to look in the Medrash.

But the model for how to deal with a convert candidate is right here in Ruth, including turning said candidate away three times.

If you need more convincing, you will have to explain what else you need.

So then, at what point did being "Jewish" go from a tribal-based classification system for all the Hebrew tribes to a catch-all for anyone who converted including the "righteous strangers"?

That is hard to say. Jonah referred to himself as a Hebrew. Mordechai - cousin and father figure to Esther - is called a Jew in the book of Esther, even though he is from the tribe of Benjamin.

Deuteronomy 7:1-5 forbids non-Jewish men from marrying Jewish women, but no such restriction for Jewish men marrying non-Jewish women....

It isn't listed there in black and white, but it is also a forbidden union. Or have you missed the plague in Numbers because the Jewish men sinned with the Midianite women, including Phineas' spearing of Cozby and Zimri?

But....., on the previous subject feel free to explain why the foreign wives in Ezra 10:2-3 weren't even given the chance to convert. Why were they just cast away?

They had the entirety of their marriages up until that point. If the women didn't convert YET, they probably weren't going to start right then, either.

Now what term can we use to describe this difference? At what point does "Biological" differ from "Racial"?

Again... Why is the designation of race so important to you?

 

[jazzymom]

What's sick is that you're totally avoiding the facts being discussed and resorting to inflammatory attacks to cover the evasion.

Are you denying that a bloodborn Newborn is considered a "Real Jew" while an adopted one isn't? Or just running away?

A person born to a Jewish mother is a real Jew and a person converted is a real Jew.

A baby adopted and converted is a real Jew.

What is so difficult to understand???

Judaism is inherited, it is not a race, those born are Jews those converted are Jews.

What do you not understand???