sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay, the Holy Spirit is found some 14 times in the OT and the Scriptures are not "baseless" nor my opinion.
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Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context
- Thread starter CG Didymus
- Start date
Hi Jay, the Holy Spirit is found some 14 times in the OT and the Scriptures are not "baseless" nor my opinion.
yokomodoful
Member
Mathew was writing to the Jews and Mathew may have been Jewish himself. The people of the time knew scripture very well and your above statements would have been even more apparent at the time.
The main purpose of Mathew's writing was to tell the Jews that Jesus has come to fulfill even more fully what has been written in the old testament. Themes in the old testament and new repeat themselves, but take the meaning to its fullness. For example the unblemished lamb and the lamb of God. Do not commit adultery to do not even think about adultery. The offering of bread and wine of Malcesedec to the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus 'ups the bar'.
In the original context the child was born to a young woman (which usually meant unmarried and pure until proven otherwise.) In Mathew, the language becomes more pure, more amazing, more pronounced - born to a virgin. In the original context Judah's enemies would be gone, done away with. With Jesus, the enemy of the entire world would be crushed. The entire point of Mathews gospel is bringing to fullness the plans of God. The use of Isaiah 7:14 wasn't a lie and it wasn't ignorance, it was the fullness of God's plans. Upping the bar. History repeating itself, but even better. In greater fullness.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
yokomodoful
Member
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FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
yokomodoful
Member
roger1440
I do stuff
Has anyone considered the author of the Gospel of Matthew may have been familiar with both the Hebrew and Greek versions of Isaiah? By using both versions he was able to make a point.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
When you read Isaiah chapter seven in context does it sound like a prophesy about the Messiah to you?
roger1440
I do stuff
It is not prophesy at all. Mathew wasn't referring to a prophesy. LOL
roger1440
I do stuff
The key to understanding the Gospel of Mathew is his use of the word fulfill. The word is not meant as prophesy that comes true. The way the word is used is that Jesus accomplishes the things that are mentioned. Many people come to the United States in hope to fulfill the American dream. The American dream is not a prophesy. If I met the perfect woman and said to myself, She fulfills what I seek in a woman, meeting her is not a fulfillment of a prophesy. In the Gospel of Mathew Jesus fulfills nine things mentioned in the Jewish scriptures. None of these are prophesies.
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us"). (Mat.1:22-23)
So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." (Mat. 2:14-15)
Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." (Mat 2:17-18)
and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene. (Mat 2:23)
to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles-- the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned." (Mat. 4:14-16)
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases." (Mat. 8:17)
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory. In his name the nations will put their hope." (Mat. 12:17-21)
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." (Mat. 13:35)
Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me." (Mat. 27:9-10)
gnostic
The Lost One
yokomodoful said:
roger1440 said:
Yeah, sure.
The language spoken in Galilee & Judaea at that time of Jesus' and that of his disciples was Aramaic, but they also spoke the Greek Koine, but not so much Hebrew.
At that time, Hebrew was not so much a primary spoken language for Jews; Hebrew was mainly used by the priesthood and scholars. Aramaic has become the predominant language since the Neo-Assyrian empire (8th century BCE). The Hellenistic period saw the spread of Greek Koine in Alexander's (the Great) former empire.
As to Matthew (that if he was the real author of the gospel, but for the sake of convenience, the author was Matthew), it may have been written for the Jews, AND YET, it is clear that this gospel was written in Greek, not Hebrew nor Aramaic. (Not here, I speaking of the written language, not the spoken language.)
It is also quite clear that all the OT quotes that Matthew had quoted from a Greek sources (hence from the Septuagint bible), including that of Isaiah 7:14 verse.
Don't get me wrong. I do think Jews were bilinguals or for the very few, multilinguals. Greek Koine was pretty much Lingua Franca of the eastern part of the Roman Empire; it was language of trade.
But I believed that most Jews used, whether it be spoken language or written language (or both) was most likely Greek.
But I must express my doubts that any of Jesus' apostles were scholars, because they were for the most parts fishermen (like Peter, Andrew, James & John), tax-collector (like Matthew), and number of others with unspecific trades. I find it highly doubtful that they were educated in writing more than one language (again, I must stress the written language). A fisherman, like Peter, for example may have learned to speak two languages, but not to learn read-and write more than one language; it is doubtful that Peter's family would have the money (or time) for Peter and Andrew to learn read-and-write Greek and Hebrew.
And given that all the earliest extant copies of individual letters and gospels were written in Greek, I'd dare say the original texts were also written in that language, including that of the gospel according to Matthew.
The only one of the apostles that with a background in scholarship was Paul, and he never met Jesus.
So I doubt very much that everyone would read and write more than one language. And I believe that most of the NT authors probably wrote Greek, not Hebrew.
Speak more than one language, yes; read and write more than one language, highly doubtful.
But getting back to your point about Matthew might have known Greek and Hebrew and his intended audience. The gospel of Matthew may have (I'll stress out "may have") been written for Jewish audience, but I think he was writing to Greek-speaking (and Greek-reading) Jews, not the Hebrew-reading ones.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Hey Roger 1440,
There are several sites listing "prophecies" fulfilled by Jesus. This one lists 44. Click on the underlined "Prophesies Jesus fulfilled to go to their site. Here is the first 10.
There are several sites listing "prophecies" fulfilled by Jesus. This one lists 44. Click on the underlined "Prophesies Jesus fulfilled to go to their site. Here is the first 10.
A virgin birth based on Isaiah 7:14 is one of them. You're the first Christian I've heard that doesn't say it was a prophesy. But either way, it was a sign for King Ahaz and was fulfilled in his time not some 700 years later.
Hi Gnostic,
What is the source of this statement? I have the following sources which seem to be 180 degrees the opposite of you. I do not know if a blend was found in Yadin's letters mentioned below or if Hebrew and Aramaic were written separately, but it would certainly seem that Greek was not a language used by Jews at the time in question.
Josephus:
I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of the nations (Ant. 20:11:2)
Confirmation of Josephus's claims has been found by Archaeologists. The Bar Kokhba coins are one example. These coins were struck by Jews during the Bar Kokhba revolt (c. 132 C.E.). All of these coins bear only Hebrew inscriptions. Countless other inscriptions found at excavations of the Temple Mount, Masada and various Jewish tombs, have revealed first century Hebrew inscriptions
The Bar Kokhba letters are letters between Simon Bar Kokhba and his army, written during the Jewish revolt of 132 C.E.. These letters were discovered by Yigdale Yadin in 1961 and are almost all written in Hebrew and Aramaic. Two of the letters are written in Greek, both were written by men with Greek names to Bar Kokhba. One of the two Greek letters actually apologizes for writing to Bar Kokhba in Greek, saying "the letter is written in Greek, as we have no one who knows Hebrew here."
Fletch
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gnostic
The Lost One
Fletch said:
I am not saying that Hebrew was never used, it just wasn't the official languages for the Jews in the 1st century CE. Aramaic was the predominant language.
And thank you, for bringing up Simon Bar Kokhba.
As I understand it, Kokhba was one who tried to reintroduce Hebrew as the official language, hence coins with Hebrew inscriptions were found. Fair enough.
But if you looked at the coinage of the late 1st century BCE and 1st century CE, coins minted from Herod the Great (37-4 BCE) to Herod Agrippa II (55-92 CE), definitely showed evidences of Greek inscriptions being used.
Hi Gnostic,
I gather you think the Josephus quote is spurious? If so, to what end?
Thanks,
Fletch
ps The coins on wikipedia do look all Greek.
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gnostic
The Lost One
Your quote only shows that Josephus has problem speaking Greek, mean only just that he has struggle with the language. It doesn't mean that Jews weren't bilinguists.fletch said:
Spurious? No...but (there is always "but"
), Josephus was only speaking from his own experience, not that of anyone else. You told me evidences showing that coins were inscribed with Hebrew texts in the early 2nd century CE, in the belief that people spoke and write Hebrew. That's really fine by me.
But Jesus wasn't living in the 2nd century, and if we were to look at the coins that were minted by Herod and his family (or descendants), the coins in circulation, in that period and in Judaea & Galilee, have Greek inscriptions.
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Hi Gnostic,
Josephus does not appear to speak only for himself and was born just after the NT storyline setting takes place.:
I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our (i.e. not my) own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage >>>those<<< that learn the languages of the nations (Ant. 20:11:2)
I think after church father Eusebius's monks got a hold of the text, it was perhaps at least a little longer.Spurious? No...but (there is always "but"
Do American coins have English only on them?
Latin was the native language of the Romans, Greek came to be the language spoken by the well-educated elite, as most of the literature studied by Romans was written in Greek according to Wikipedia.
It would make sense to have the Greek language and Roman Emperors upon coins that were within Rome's rule.
From Wikipedia:
Herod Philip II 4 BC–34 AD[edit source | editbeta]
The coins of Herod Philip II are mostly bronze of middle-size. He was the first Jewish ruler to put portraits of himself and the Roman Emperors on his coinage. An early issue has a portrait of the Emperor Augustus, with the Greek inscription 'KAICAPI CEBACTΩ' on the obverse, and 'ΦΙΛΙΠΠΌΎ ΤΕΤΡΆΡΧΌΎ' on the reverse. Later coins depicted Tiberius on the obverse, with the inscription 'TIBEPIOΣ ΣEBAΣ', and 'ΦΙΛΙΠΠΌΎ ΤΕΤΡΆΡΧΌΎ' on the reverse. Both types had the facade of a four-columned temple on the reverse, possibly the Temple in Jerusalem. The coins are dated according to the year of the Emperor's reign.[4]
thanks,
Fletch
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi CG D, Yes, since a Messiah has been looked forward to from Genesis 3:15 and from A GOD that is to be Believed.