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Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context
- Thread starter CG Didymus
- Start date
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Gnostic, Those who really don't want to know the truth---and are satisfied only with an explanation which is false are those who answer your first question above.
The setting of the book of Isaiah is approx. 760 B.C. There was three periods of Captivity/the taking hostages to Babylon. This was taken from "Wikipedia"( not that I believe all they write/publish.)
Yes, the people were wicked and Isaiah was a prophet of GOD relaying the messages of repentance to the people and revealing some future events to them. What would happen should they continue in a rebellious manner and the blessings to expect with Obedience.
Lucifer is Past(but still causung mischief); That virgin was future---in respect to Mary; but that prophecy, also, had to to with the shortness of time when the two kings would be disposed.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
sincerly said:
None of which explain that the Christian (false) interpretation of verse 14:12, which since St Jerome's time, have misidentified the morning star to Satan-Lucifer.
And if all of the verses from 3 to 27 (minus your verse 12) is about the future, then why bother inserting something of the past about Satan-Lucifer, who (again, Satan-Lucifer) has no bearing to the King of Babylonia.
It make no sense to identify the morning star to Satan-Lucifer, when all of the rest of passage is about the King of Babylonia.
You're still cherry-picking.
Have you bother to ask any Jewish member here what these verses mean, and the identity of the morning star?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
I see! You dismiss The Holy Spirit's identification of the Kings traits as like unto that of "Lucifer". Not only with Isaiah, but,also, With the prophet Ezekiel.
What shouldn't be acceptable to persons who believe the Creator GOD of ALL things is any activity by that same Being who decieved Eve in the first place.
Yes, the King of Babylon would eventually be used of GOD in the Correcting of the Israelites.(Both houses) (GOD sets up and debases kingdoms--to fulfill HIS Purpose.)
Until you understand why the "Jews" were to be punished by a period of "Captivity", You will not be able to comprehend the Scriptures/messages of that period.
2000 years ago, The Messiah promised to come through the linage of David did so; Only a few of them were ready to receive HIS BEING. Most rejected HIM then and most still do even to today.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the writing.
And you've completely dismissed that Jesus has also been identified with the morning star - hence Lucifer.
2 Peter 1:19 said:
Here, you don't have Jesus been directly connected to the morning star in this verse, but since the surrounding verses (2 Peter 1:12-18) speak of Jesus, prior to verse 19, we can deduct that Jesus being the morning star.
Revelation is even more explicit with "I, Jesus..." at verse 16:
Revelation 22:16 said:
But with Isaiah 14:12, there is no mention of Satan or the Devil whatsoever. The surrounding verses speak of the King of Babylonia. That you would ignore that completely demonstrate you are not willing to look beyond a single verse, therefore you've shown that you seriously lack of scholarship.
The only reason why the morning star was linked to Lucifer, was St Jerome's translation of Isaiah. Prior to that, Lucifer was never mentioned. The prophecy or revelation clearly stated it was for the King of Babylonia. It doesn't say which king, and it doesn't matter, but what is certain is that it wasn't speaking of your Christian Satan or the Devil. Satan has no correlation with other part of chapter 14.
Similarly with identifying the young woman as the Virgin Mary and the infant Immanuel as Jesus in verse 7:14. Mary and Jesus have no correlations with other verses in chapter 7. To agree with Matthew's interpretation is to render verse 14 as meaningless, because Jesus and Mary don't in any way fit in with the rest of chapter 7.
And I don't think you understand allegory or simile at all, otherwise you would take into account all the verses before and after verse 12.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I'm with Gnostic. But is it really wrong to cherry pick? When a new religion does it, it is justified by that religion. It takes verses from the previous religion to show how the new one is better. But what about those of us that don't agree with that new religion? Well, for us, cherry picking doesn't prove a thing. It only proves how far the new religion is willing to go to try justify itself.
The cherry picking that Christianity does to the Jewish Scriptures is similar to what Islam and the Baha'i Faith does to the Christian Bible. They need to justify themselves and they find New Testament verses to prove they are from "God." Christian cults take verses out of context to justify themselves also. Everyone is doing it, but only the born-again, evangelical, fundamental Christians are right in the way they do it? Only they know the real meaning of the ancient Hebrew writings? I can't believe them without investigating it myself.
If a new religion needs to have God become a human and be born of a virgin, fine. If it needs an evil spirit being for its God/man to conquer, fine. But to say that those concepts are from Judaism, I don't believe it. My Bible (NASB) has the word Helel in the sidebar for Is 14:12. Was this word ever one of the names of the evil spirit being? What was the Greek word for Helel? Shouldn't that be important? Why don't we use that word? Why Lucifer? To me, it all sounds like Christian manipulation. Add to that the Prince and King of Tyre from Ezekiel, and we have the Christian devil right there and as plain as day in the Jewish Scriptures--Totally out of context, but right there.
I know it makes perfect sense for Christians. I know it would totally destroy their religious world-view if they thought otherwise. But there are so many questions. So many places where the Christian interpretation can be wrong. How do they know they are right? By the spirit in their heart? So do people in other religions and cults. Because the word says so? The word says whatever you want it to say. The Christian might say, "no," that we must follow the interpretation of the church. Which church?
The Catholics were the original "true" Christians. The teachings of the Church fathers evolved directly into the Catholic Church. If you're Protestant than you believe somewhere down the line the "true" Church went wrong. How about your Church? From the outside, it looks like most Christian denominations argue with each other on who is more right than the other. And, you know what, it makes them all look wrong to me.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
I see! You dismiss The Holy Spirit's identification of the Kings traits as like unto that of "Lucifer". Not only with Isaiah, but,also, With the prophet Ezekiel.
Hi Gnostic, Isa.1:1declares that the Holy Spirit was in on-going communication with the prophet Isaiah concerning what would occur during the reign of four of the Israelites kings---and their rebellion. Prophesied and occurred as seen by history---not just Scripturally, but secular.
Originally Posted by gnostic 2 Peter 1:19
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Here, you don't have Jesus been directly connected to the morning star in this verse, but since the surrounding verses (2 Peter 1:12-18) speak of Jesus, prior to verse 19, we can deduct that Jesus being the morning star.
Revelation is even more explicit with "I, Jesus..." at verse 16:
Originally Posted by gnostic, Revelation 22:16
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
But with Isaiah 14:12, there is no mention of Satan or the Devil whatsoever. The surrounding verses speak of the King of Babylonia. That you would ignore that completely demonstrate you are not willing to look beyond a single verse, therefore you've shown that you seriously lack of scholarship.[/quote]
2Pet.1:19 along with its context are great messages. We haven't followed "cunningly devised fables." The Holy Spirit has spoken to the Prophets in our behalf so that all can understand the message/plan of salvation. Jesus is the "light of the world" to all who will open their hearts and let the Truth of HIS message shine in.
Rev.22:16, is the fulfillment of the prophetic message from Gen.49:10.
Job was written approx.1520 BC and Satan was known at that time as an adversary to GOD and HIS People/Believers.
In Luke 10:18, Jesus acknowledged that Satan(with all his names) was casted out of heaven to earth.
GOD used Babylon as punishment for the Rebellion of HIS People and prophesied that the "oppressor" would be broken just as the "oppressor/Satan will eventually "be no more." Just as Malachi, Peter, and Revelations, reveal in their predictions.
Satan doesn't bring "light", ,but spiritual "Darkness" just as Isa,60:1-4 depicts, It is the wise that come to HIS "Light."
Jesus wasn't a bull, goat, nor Ram, Yet for Many centuries those things were symbolic of the Sacrifice Jesus came to earth specifically to pervide for the propitiation for the sins of Mankind.
HE was that Promised/prophesied "Seed" of the "woman" from Gen.3:15- Therefore, even though you deny the fact, The Holy Spirit placed "that SEED" in the virgin Mary's womb" "when the fullness of time" "had come".
It was prophesied, and in Luke 24:44-48 Jesus opened the "understanding of all to those prophetic saying concerning HIS Mission(and birth).
It is you who do not want to take all the verses from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21 as they all make up the Narrative which brings understanding to the "Good News"/"Gospel"/ Glad tidings/ which turns disaster to victory for mankind.
I see! You dismiss The Holy Spirit's identification of the Kings traits as like unto that of "Lucifer". Not only with Isaiah, but,also, With the prophet Ezekiel.
Hi Gnostic, Isa.1:1declares that the Holy Spirit was in on-going communication with the prophet Isaiah concerning what would occur during the reign of four of the Israelites kings---and their rebellion. Prophesied and occurred as seen by history---not just Scripturally, but secular.
Originally Posted by gnostic 2 Peter 1:19
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Here, you don't have Jesus been directly connected to the morning star in this verse, but since the surrounding verses (2 Peter 1:12-18) speak of Jesus, prior to verse 19, we can deduct that Jesus being the morning star.
Revelation is even more explicit with "I, Jesus..." at verse 16:
Originally Posted by gnostic, Revelation 22:16
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
But with Isaiah 14:12, there is no mention of Satan or the Devil whatsoever. The surrounding verses speak of the King of Babylonia. That you would ignore that completely demonstrate you are not willing to look beyond a single verse, therefore you've shown that you seriously lack of scholarship.[/quote]
2Pet.1:19 along with its context are great messages. We haven't followed "cunningly devised fables." The Holy Spirit has spoken to the Prophets in our behalf so that all can understand the message/plan of salvation. Jesus is the "light of the world" to all who will open their hearts and let the Truth of HIS message shine in.
Rev.22:16, is the fulfillment of the prophetic message from Gen.49:10.
Job was written approx.1520 BC and Satan was known at that time as an adversary to GOD and HIS People/Believers.
In Luke 10:18, Jesus acknowledged that Satan(with all his names) was casted out of heaven to earth.
GOD used Babylon as punishment for the Rebellion of HIS People and prophesied that the "oppressor" would be broken just as the "oppressor/Satan will eventually "be no more." Just as Malachi, Peter, and Revelations, reveal in their predictions.
Satan doesn't bring "light", ,but spiritual "Darkness" just as Isa,60:1-4 depicts, It is the wise that come to HIS "Light."
Jesus wasn't a bull, goat, nor Ram, Yet for Many centuries those things were symbolic of the Sacrifice Jesus came to earth specifically to pervide for the propitiation for the sins of Mankind.
HE was that Promised/prophesied "Seed" of the "woman" from Gen.3:15- Therefore, even though you deny the fact, The Holy Spirit placed "that SEED" in the virgin Mary's womb" "when the fullness of time" "had come".
It was prophesied, and in Luke 24:44-48 Jesus opened the "understanding of all to those prophetic saying concerning HIS Mission(and birth).
It is you who do not want to take all the verses from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21 as they all make up the Narrative which brings understanding to the "Good News"/"Gospel"/ Glad tidings/ which turns disaster to victory for mankind.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
CG D, GOD gave Principles to the prophets to give to us for a right relationship to GOD and to Mankind. Those Principles have been distorted/counterfeited as much as possible by that same "serpent"/"Satan"/"Devil" as before he and his casted out "followers" from heaven came to Earth and deceived with "smooth sounding lies".
GOD'S Principles need no "up-dating"----they are continually current/valid. GOD and HIS Principles "changeth not".
Man(for the greater portion) changes and expects man's principles to change---Away from those of GOD.
CG D, (John 5:33-40)The Creator GOD wants everyone to "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me".
Paul didn't want his hearers to believe that the Scriptures spoke concerning Paul, but spoke the truth concerning the messages he was teaching.
(Acts 17:11), "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. ".
Paul believed those "ancient Hebrew writings", (Acts24:14), "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:[/b'".
הֵילֵל
Transliteration
heylel
Pronunciation
hā·lāl' (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From הָלַל (H1984) (in the sense of brightness)
TWOT Reference
499a
Outline of Biblical Usage
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon
Ezek.28:15, "Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee"
CG D, No manipulation, like most, That "created being" succumbed to "pride" and the "lust" for power---that which belonged to GOD HIMSELF.(Read Dan.4 again)
CG D, GOD Doesn't allow HIS Faithful Obedient People to be in "darkness". Notice Amos 3:7, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. "
That Same GOD said that all teachings are false which do not teach: Isa,8:20, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. "
When "the followers of the WAY"(I Am the Way") began the "Gospel unto all the World" they were soon called "Christians". Those converts(Jews and Gentiles) were taught out of the "Scriptures" and those "Principles" were those Given from Sinai. There was no NT and ALL those(NT) teachings were gleaned from the OT Scriptures.
"catholic" means "universal" and that was the nature of the "ecclesiastic assemblage"---church. The "C"atholic church is an off-shoot of the original.
In fact, It was prophesied by Daniel (7:25)and Paul noted the fact (2Thess.2:3-4). To be "falling away" from true principles as given by GOD at Sinai.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Hi Sincerly,
I thought I was going to move on to a different question, but this one keeps churning up new tangents.
Cherry picking is the point I was trying to make in saying Mathew took Isaiah out of context. To add the King of Babylon and the Prince and King of Tyre is the same thing. Of course to the believer sitting in Church, when the preacher says, "Looky here! The Word says Jesus was there before creation. The Word says through Jesus all things were created. The Word say..." They go on and on and show verses. They'll continue, "Satan was there in the garden. Satan was there in heaven, but evil was found in him and he was cast from heaven." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was raised Catholic, became a Baha'i, got saved, got baptized in the Holy Spirit. I've heard so many versions of the one truth that I don't trust any of them. That is why I'm here. You are so good and thorough in responding. But all I'm asking is if it bothers you that Mathew takes a small portion of a verse and disregards the rest. The same with the morning star thing and the prince and king of Tyre, but those were early Christians that took those partial verses, not anyone supposed "inspired."
The Ezekiel chapters all around chapter 28 mention the "king of Babylon" (ch. 24), "sons of Ammon" (ch. 25), the "king of Egypt" (ch. 29). What's wrong with those chapters? Why isn't the devil or Jesus "found" in those? Or, are they about the specific people and nations mentioned? It's poetic and strange. It could mean a lot of things. Christians need the Hebrew Bible to say "Jesus" is the messiah and the "Satan" is God's opponent. Some Christians and a lot of Jews disagree with the evangelical Christian interpretation. Because it is cherry picked, I think it should bother all Christians. If you think the Holy Spirit told the interpreters of those verses concerning the devil and Mathew the correct meaning of those little tiny pieces of the Hebrew Scriptures than fine. But it's kind of like saying that all the Jewish scholars are spiritually blind numbskulls, and that their Talmud and other writings are useless garbage, not worth reading.
Just by how you write and respond to questions, I know you care about the "truth." And, I have a lot of respect for you. There's not many Christians I say that about. I really do appreciate your thoughts.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi CG D, I will try to keep those "tangents" focused on/upon the topic of discussion. The single "threads" properly entwined/focused do make a not only a strong cord, but a "rope" to hold one's "anchor" securely to keep one from "drifting". A "churning sea of doubt" can be disasterous.
No! Matthew was placing Isaiah 7:14 in its prophetic "fullness of time setting".
Isaiah did As well for those kingdoms for the purpose GOD would use them.
Let's do a little more "cherry-picking"--in Isaiah-- to give an example of using a portion of what was written. In Luke 4:16-27, Jesus has just begun HIS mission/ministry. HE has been tempted by Satan and stood to read from the Scroll/Scriptures which was handed HIM(the one from Isaiah (Jesus opened it to 61:1-2). This is what HE read: "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
Isa,61:2-3 has this, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
The vengeance part of the prophecy is still future---the Judgment Day. At the First Resurrection there will be Mourners for those who did not resurrect at this time.(Still future.)
Because Jesus stopped reading and closed the "Book" only meant the rest was for another time.
Matthew and Luke give insight into the navtivity of Jesus. One more than the other, but, no! I am in agreement that as the Holy Spirit revealed to Mary---SO IT OCCURRED.
I would have been "bothered" had Joseph actually been declared the parent of Jesus by GOD.
Nor does it "bother me" that Satan/Lucifer isn't better described/identified. There is enough shown in Scriptures to understand that he choose to rebel and that in an arrogant/defiant manner----which ultimately will end in his "ashes"/his "dust from which he was created."
Yes, I do care about the truth.
It wasn't that GOD didn't Care, or couldn't have prevented all things to end as they did. That end came about by one's freedom to OBEY OR DISOBEY. It all started in Heaven. Those guilty of Disobedience were casted to earth to be reserved unto judgment.
Eve was deluded/beguiled by lies---same with the angels. The Scriptures were given so that all persons would have a true witness of the facts. Therefore, ALL will have the opportunity to cast their vote for Truth and the Inspired Scriptures. OR the critics claim of "myth"/ NOT a GOD nor a devil.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Dear Sincerly, I doubt if "helel" was ever considered a name for The Adversary. And, I was wondering how that word was pronounced and used in Greek. Since if it is the devil in Latin then it should be in Greek and Hebrew also.
I'm putting pieces of the religious puzzle together and a lot of the pieces aren't fitting very well. For me, the best explanation is that all religions are man's attempt at explaining God and truth and the mysteries of life. The problem I'm having with the Protestant Christian part of the puzzle is: How did they arrived at their version of the truth? Cherry picking is a reasonable answer for me. I'm not assuming the NT as the inerrant, infallible, literal Word of God. I doubt the Hebrew Bible is literally true also, but if Christians use it to justify their doctrines and beliefs, then I'd expect some continuity.
My questions are mainly focused on that. Because I've studied with Jews, I agree with them, that Christians manipulated the Scriptures to suit their purposes.
Ironically, I'd prefer Christianity over Judaism. I wouldn't want to have to follow all those laws. However, I don't condemn them for believing and following their own Scriptures as they see them and interpret them. And, they don't knock on my door or knock me over the head with their Bibles and tell me I'm a sinner and bound for hell.
Only Christians do that. Only some Christians do that. Out of those few Christians that bother to try and save me, none of them believe exactly alike. So which one is telling me the real truth? They all have cherry-picked verses to prove their point.
If I knew nothing, and at one point in my life I knew virtually nothing of religious "truth" and its doctrines, I would simply believe there must be something greater than us. I've been there in a child-like, naive bliss. That is still where my heart is. I kind of believe that religion can be summed up with the statement: Do unto others what you'd want them to do unto you--and the rest is embellishment. I'm going through all this questioning to satisfy my mind. My heart is fine. It believes in that magical, mystical thing called Love. Some kind of Divine Love that comes from outside of me and fills me when I surrender to it. Sometimes, I ask that divine Love questions. I've asked many times, "Jesus? Is that you?" I haven't gotten a direct answer yet.
Anyway thanks Sincerly, you still amaze me with your thoroughness and depth of knowledge. I still agree more with Gnostic, Harmonious and Shermana, but you're doing an outstanding job of supporting the Christian view. My next thread will be questioning "original sin." Hope you join in the discussion.
CG
I'm putting pieces of the religious puzzle together and a lot of the pieces aren't fitting very well. For me, the best explanation is that all religions are man's attempt at explaining God and truth and the mysteries of life. The problem I'm having with the Protestant Christian part of the puzzle is: How did they arrived at their version of the truth? Cherry picking is a reasonable answer for me. I'm not assuming the NT as the inerrant, infallible, literal Word of God. I doubt the Hebrew Bible is literally true also, but if Christians use it to justify their doctrines and beliefs, then I'd expect some continuity.
My questions are mainly focused on that. Because I've studied with Jews, I agree with them, that Christians manipulated the Scriptures to suit their purposes.
Ironically, I'd prefer Christianity over Judaism. I wouldn't want to have to follow all those laws. However, I don't condemn them for believing and following their own Scriptures as they see them and interpret them. And, they don't knock on my door or knock me over the head with their Bibles and tell me I'm a sinner and bound for hell.
Only Christians do that. Only some Christians do that. Out of those few Christians that bother to try and save me, none of them believe exactly alike. So which one is telling me the real truth? They all have cherry-picked verses to prove their point.
If I knew nothing, and at one point in my life I knew virtually nothing of religious "truth" and its doctrines, I would simply believe there must be something greater than us. I've been there in a child-like, naive bliss. That is still where my heart is. I kind of believe that religion can be summed up with the statement: Do unto others what you'd want them to do unto you--and the rest is embellishment. I'm going through all this questioning to satisfy my mind. My heart is fine. It believes in that magical, mystical thing called Love. Some kind of Divine Love that comes from outside of me and fills me when I surrender to it. Sometimes, I ask that divine Love questions. I've asked many times, "Jesus? Is that you?" I haven't gotten a direct answer yet.
Anyway thanks Sincerly, you still amaze me with your thoroughness and depth of knowledge. I still agree more with Gnostic, Harmonious and Shermana, but you're doing an outstanding job of supporting the Christian view. My next thread will be questioning "original sin." Hope you join in the discussion.
CG
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi CG D, Isa.14:12, uses the "Hebrew word "heylel"/translated as Lucifer as was shown for the one who was casted out of heaven. Personally, I find no evidence that the king of babylon was even in heaven. I find that there was an adversarial created angel which was casted out of heaven--called Satan and a few other names who was. (Rev.12:7-9). Jesus said,(Luke 10:18). HE witnessed that "fall from heaven." 2Peter 2:4,also, attests to those who were cast out. Even those who were described as "demons" acknowledged that they were here to be judged/sentenced as had been directed.
CG D, like any jig-saw-puzzle when pieces are attempted to be forced into areas where they were not intended the "picture isn't as the artist intended". You may be satisfied with it and "think" it is correct, but the "artist will reject your labor as incomplete".
So where are you starting with GOD??? As a myth?? As the Creator of all things?? Does GOD control mankind?? Or does mankind do the manipulation of the "god" he believes and in whom he has faith?? Did the Creator GOD plan out the "what if's" that a free thinking created being might choose to do in contradiction to stated Do unto others as you would want them to do to you. Are those "rules"/laws the same as you do not want to follow in the first-place??
Nothing will "fit" when you do not agree that GOD is the Authority and conformity has to be from one's own view-point.
The Creator GOD started by Creating all things seen and non-seen in this world. Mankind can do the same or accept a "big bang" and then imagine what-ever scenario that pleases himself.
GOD had began the Creating and a created being stepped out of the "love relationship with GOD" to covet things which belonged to GOD. First in heaven and then another one was "beguiled" on earth.
The plan of redeeming lost souls/persons/Beings is in full operation and will soon be completed.
Has it ever crossed your mind that the "Truth" is purposefully counterfeited by that same "beguiling Being" that did so to Eve and tried to entice Jesus in the same manner??
Notice:2Thes.2:6-12, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. " One can not sit on the fence. Since one wants to believe the lie, the delusion will be strong enough that a Believer will reject the Lie, but the non-believer, will accept it.
The "Jesus, Is that you?" gives a "direct answer" when one examines it in the context of the scriptures.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Dear Sincerly, The puzzle works fine and all the pieces fit together if all you believe is one particular version of Christianity. The puzzle works fine if you're a Mormon or JW or a Catholic also, but their puzzle looks completely different than yours.The pieces fit perfect if you believe in evolution, but it's a different puzzle. Each group defines what the puzzle is and how it is supposed to go together.
My puzzle is a mess because I'm looking at all of them. To use the elephant analogy, the pieces I'm looking at don't describe an elephant. One religion doesn't have the tail and another the leg. They are talking about an all together different animal. Religions are describing something that is beyond them and giving contradictory answers. The "golden rule" is one of the few common threads. It works for me, because I can respect you and your religion, but also respect a Hindu, a Jew or anyone and try and see the world through their eyes.
My puzzle is a mess because I'm looking at all of them. To use the elephant analogy, the pieces I'm looking at don't describe an elephant. One religion doesn't have the tail and another the leg. They are talking about an all together different animal. Religions are describing something that is beyond them and giving contradictory answers. The "golden rule" is one of the few common threads. It works for me, because I can respect you and your religion, but also respect a Hindu, a Jew or anyone and try and see the world through their eyes.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi CG D, That is the point of the elephant and the blind men. Just examining "pieces" of the whole doesn't give one the Whole(of anything).
Neither does Starting in the middle of a story give one the focusing background information to understand fully the plot and what it is leading to as the ending.
How much success would one have in solving a word Math problem where the first part is at the bottom of p.36 of one math book and the second part was gleaned from the top page of 37 of a different math book.
However, a little more in perspective, the Angel Gabriel told Mary and Joseph concerning the Birth of Jesus and by Whom.
But when one reads the Quran, the "supposedly Gabriel" there gives a supposed prophet an entirely different accounting. That some 600 years after the Death of Jesus upon the Cross. Sorry, but that "Gabriel" was speaking as one of the "Angels" who was casted out of heaven would speak. And it certainly is contradictory to Isa.8:20.
CG D, Have you compared the actual messages of the various translations?? One can obtain the same understanding from ALL "versions" unless one is wanting to "interprete"/"exegete" a contrary understanding.(Which is why the various denominations. And that isn't that GOD sent conflicting messages, but from the influence of that same "serpent"/"Satan"/"devil"/"iblis"/ etc.)
No matter how one wants to "see what another sees", unless it is actually the message GOD has given----IT IS FALSE. Therefore, since ?15? versions are giving one principle message, It is the odd "exegesis" which is false.(those which are contrary to that which was recorded from Sinai.)(15 false beliefs concerning a principle do NOT make them right over one Right Belief.)
James 2:19 puts it this way:, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
Whose "eyes" should one "see" the meaning of/Principles of the scriptures through?
davidthegreek
Active Member
if you are doubting matthew. You are doubting jesus as the messiah.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
DavidtheGreek, I'm questioning, or doubting, the truth about Jesus, because Mathew takes things out of context from the Hebrew Bible and forces them to proves that Jesus is real. Do you believe that Mohammad is a prophet of God? If not, why not? You doubted and questioned. Maybe you found things that didn't line up with the Christian Bible. So, therefore, you don't believe he's a prophet of God.
It is easy to say you believe in Jesus, but as you learn new things about him, do you research it out to see if its true? Are all Christian denominations true? How do you know which one is lying or stretching the truth? You check it out. I checked Mathew out and found he took only a small part of Isaiah, and took it out of context, to prove his point. If that is not lying, then it's pretty darn close.
It is easy to say you believe in Jesus, but as you learn new things about him, do you research it out to see if its true? Are all Christian denominations true? How do you know which one is lying or stretching the truth? You check it out. I checked Mathew out and found he took only a small part of Isaiah, and took it out of context, to prove his point. If that is not lying, then it's pretty darn close.
It's called midrash.
It's a Jewish method of exegesis that interprets scripture to have multiple levels of meanings beyond the literal spoken word.
It's not a christian invention, it exited before Christ and was still used after Him by Jewish teachers.
Matthew does it again in chapter 2.
Paul gives us an example of a scriptural midrash in Galatians 4.
Hebrews is full of it.
As just some examples.
The basic idea is that while some things had an immediate literal application in the context they were written in, they also reflected a larger spiritual truth or a later prophetic fulfillment.
Everything about Jesus has some kind of prophetic picture found in earlier scripture. Israel itself was a type and shadow of His messianic Kingdom to later come. The tabernacle was a type and shadow of a much larger and profound spiritual truth about our interaction with God, him dwelling in us via the Holy Spirit.
Many prophecies given for a time or situation had double application to a later event concerning the Messiah and the Kingdom of God.
Whether or not a particular midrash is true comes down to the source of revelation. Was it revelation by the Holy Spirit to a person, was it a demonic twisting of scripture, or was it just the mental construct of a man?
Once you realize that an apostle like Paul was operating in exceptionally close communion with God, having access to an exceptional level of revelation and power by the Holy Spirit, it's not difficult to trust his revelations on the subject over doubters who don't even believe in Jesus much less have a relationship with Him.
There are many Jews who do come to accept these midrashes as accurate when they receive a revelation by the Holy Spirit about Jesus as the Messiah. They become known as messianic Jews.
Some, like Dr Micheal Brown, deal extensively with these kinds of issues and questions.
Others, like Rabbi Kirt Schneider, can be very helpful at showing you how the old and new testament connect completely together in ways you may never have realized.
You should trust that feeling you felt in your heart when you first accepted Christ and work from there to be guided by people who do have a close communion with the Holy Spirit, who operate in it's power, manifest it's fruits, and prophesy accurately.
They do exist today, and they can point you in the right direction.
You aren't wrong for wanting answers to questions, for wanting to understand things fully instead of just accepting them. I can relate, because I am the same way. But you have to be careful to not get discouraged by being unable to find all the answers right away, just be diligent and don't lose sight of the revelation of truth that God has already put in your heart concerning His Son. Some of us have a high motivation for establishing truth in every situation, and that is the way God wired us because we are probably meant to be teachers of truth. It's easy for us to get frustrated by things we don't understand and assume christianity must have it all wrong, seeking answers elsewhere, but sometimes what we really need is just a closer relationship with the Holy Spirit so as to set in order the things in our mind to align with what is true, dispelling the confusion and clarifying things. You can't expect to achieve that by your own intellect alone.
Things started to make a lot more sense to me after I decided to fully accept Jesus for who He said He was. Suddenly the Holy Spirit was illuminating things to me to the point where things that didn't make sense a week ago were now coming together in my mind.
It's a Jewish method of exegesis that interprets scripture to have multiple levels of meanings beyond the literal spoken word.
It's not a christian invention, it exited before Christ and was still used after Him by Jewish teachers.
Matthew does it again in chapter 2.
Paul gives us an example of a scriptural midrash in Galatians 4.
Hebrews is full of it.
As just some examples.
The basic idea is that while some things had an immediate literal application in the context they were written in, they also reflected a larger spiritual truth or a later prophetic fulfillment.
Everything about Jesus has some kind of prophetic picture found in earlier scripture. Israel itself was a type and shadow of His messianic Kingdom to later come. The tabernacle was a type and shadow of a much larger and profound spiritual truth about our interaction with God, him dwelling in us via the Holy Spirit.
Many prophecies given for a time or situation had double application to a later event concerning the Messiah and the Kingdom of God.
Whether or not a particular midrash is true comes down to the source of revelation. Was it revelation by the Holy Spirit to a person, was it a demonic twisting of scripture, or was it just the mental construct of a man?
Once you realize that an apostle like Paul was operating in exceptionally close communion with God, having access to an exceptional level of revelation and power by the Holy Spirit, it's not difficult to trust his revelations on the subject over doubters who don't even believe in Jesus much less have a relationship with Him.
There are many Jews who do come to accept these midrashes as accurate when they receive a revelation by the Holy Spirit about Jesus as the Messiah. They become known as messianic Jews.
Some, like Dr Micheal Brown, deal extensively with these kinds of issues and questions.
Others, like Rabbi Kirt Schneider, can be very helpful at showing you how the old and new testament connect completely together in ways you may never have realized.
You should trust that feeling you felt in your heart when you first accepted Christ and work from there to be guided by people who do have a close communion with the Holy Spirit, who operate in it's power, manifest it's fruits, and prophesy accurately.
They do exist today, and they can point you in the right direction.
You aren't wrong for wanting answers to questions, for wanting to understand things fully instead of just accepting them. I can relate, because I am the same way. But you have to be careful to not get discouraged by being unable to find all the answers right away, just be diligent and don't lose sight of the revelation of truth that God has already put in your heart concerning His Son. Some of us have a high motivation for establishing truth in every situation, and that is the way God wired us because we are probably meant to be teachers of truth. It's easy for us to get frustrated by things we don't understand and assume christianity must have it all wrong, seeking answers elsewhere, but sometimes what we really need is just a closer relationship with the Holy Spirit so as to set in order the things in our mind to align with what is true, dispelling the confusion and clarifying things. You can't expect to achieve that by your own intellect alone.
Things started to make a lot more sense to me after I decided to fully accept Jesus for who He said He was. Suddenly the Holy Spirit was illuminating things to me to the point where things that didn't make sense a week ago were now coming together in my mind.
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Rise, I just want to focus on this portion of your response to CD G.
Saul/Paul had a very zealous relationship with the Creator GOD from his being taught the OT relationship by Gamaliel(Acts 22:3) and then by Jesus Christ.(Gal.1:11-12) Yes, Paul relied upon the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT---following in the course of that leading.
All the Gospel writers agreed and wrote the OT principles which Jesus taught. Jesus spoke of HIMSELF as the Son of man and Did NOT deny being the SON of GOD.
Jesus Used prophecies concerning HIMSELF. Isa.61:1-2 ; Dan.9:24, in Luke 4:21.
Notice these confessions--Matt.11:16; 14:33; John 6:69; 11:27.
CD G, GOD gave sufficient evidence for one to Believe or chose not to Believe---still that power to choose----while time lasts.
Saul/Paul had a very zealous relationship with the Creator GOD from his being taught the OT relationship by Gamaliel(Acts 22:3) and then by Jesus Christ.(Gal.1:11-12) Yes, Paul relied upon the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT---following in the course of that leading.
All the Gospel writers agreed and wrote the OT principles which Jesus taught. Jesus spoke of HIMSELF as the Son of man and Did NOT deny being the SON of GOD.
Jesus Used prophecies concerning HIMSELF. Isa.61:1-2 ; Dan.9:24, in Luke 4:21.
Notice these confessions--Matt.11:16; 14:33; John 6:69; 11:27.
CD G, GOD gave sufficient evidence for one to Believe or chose not to Believe---still that power to choose----while time lasts.
Shermana
Heretic
My guess is that it wasn't Matthew who did this but later interpolators.
As well as with Luke. I believe that the long list of geneology included in Luke to make Jesus the son of Joseph (and thus son of David) was the original, and only later they shoehorned in the virgin birth thing without realizing (or caring) that this would render the whole Paternal geneology useless.
Why? What do you think you know about the author of gMt that warrants this view?