Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Fletch,
I didn't post any Scripture from Greek words, but those I posted are clear. GOD has in the past and will in the future "yashab"/Dwell with mankind just as those Scriptures stated which I posted.

Hi Sincerly,
You have a created a paradox. Your Scriptures, at keast the part you call the Old Testament, is now corrupt and you must discard them.

You never posted any Scriptures that had God yashab with men on Earth that I am aware of. Please show again if that indeed is true.

The New Testament is a Greek book because that is its original language. Isaiah in chapters 24 and 28 tells of a huge known for singing world wide false new wine, snare religion that comes in another language, and has a covenant with death that they think will hide them from the overwhelming scourge to come.

Fletch

Hi Fletch, Any paradox was not of my making , but on a misunderstanding of those Scriptures which you are claiming are "corrupt".

The Greek wouldn't make any sense if those(claimed) "corrupt" Truths were not there to show from the beginning(Gen.1:1) that the Creator GOD made all things to be with out end. (The reason for the tree of life.)
GOD met with (dwelt among human beings) in the Garden (on earth).
Rev.21 is the culmination of the controversy which is presently taking place on this earth and will again be such(new heavens and a new earth) that GOD will "dwell with them."

GOD and the Principles of HIS truth are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Fletch,
I didn't post any Scripture from Greek words,

Hi Sincerly,
I never ever said you did, so I guess we can lay that straw man in his grave and put flowers on it. :^)

but those I posted are clear. GOD has in the past and will in the future "yashab"/Dwell with mankind just as those Scriptures stated which I posted.

That is your claim, but we eagerly await Hebrew Scripture verses that say God yashab with man on the earth. So far, as usual, all we get is Chapter "thin" verse "air".

Hi Fletch, Any paradox was not of my making , but on a misunderstanding of those Scriptures which you are claiming are "corrupt".

The paradox is of your making. IF what you claim is true, THEN you have Scriptures that on the one hand say God can not be contained therefore can not yashab with men on Earth and on the other hand you claim there indeed exist as yet unseen verses that say God can yashab with men on the Earth and therefore be contained.

The Greek wouldn't make any sense if those(claimed) "corrupt" Truths were not there to show from the beginning(Gen.1:1) that the Creator GOD made all things to be with out end. (The reason for the tree of life.)
GOD met with (dwelt among human beings) in the Garden (on earth).
Rev.21 is the culmination of the controversy which is presently taking place on this earth and will again be such(new heavens and a new earth) that GOD will "dwell with them."

God can do many things, He can not yashab with men. You have not shown a verse that says He can either. There are other limitations, can God create a rock so heavy, that He can not lift it?

GOD and the Principles of HIS truth are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

God changes not, i.e. did not change into a man(nor a bird).

He can't change from not being able to be contained to being able to be contained.

Fletch

 

[sincerly]

Hi Sincerly,
I never ever said you did, so I guess we can lay that straw man in his grave and put flowers on it. :^)

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Fletch,
I didn't post any Scripture from Greek words, but those I posted are clear. GOD has in the past and will in the future "yashab"/Dwell with mankind just as those Scriptures stated which I posted.

Hi Sincerly, You have a created a paradox. Your Scriptures, at keast the part you call the Old Testament, is now corrupt and you must discard them.

You never posted any Scriptures that had God yashab with men on Earth that I am aware of. Please show again if that indeed is true.

What is a strawman is yourclaiming that the O.T. Scripture is "corrupt". and then use "yashab" a Hebrew word in stead of the Greek. It betrays your: """

The New Testament is a Greek book because that is its original language. Isaiah in chapters 24 and 28 tells of a huge known for singing world wide false new wine, snare religion that comes in another language, and has a covenant with death that they think will hide them from the overwhelming scourge to come.

I have shown you from both the O.T. and N.T. where GOD has and will "Dwell with mankind".


No, it is NOT my understanding tha man has any control over GOD that man can put GOD anywhere that GOD hasn't agreed to be.
GOD Choose to dwell with mankind in the Garden and with/to Moses in the tabernacle that was to be made on earth after the pattern of the one in heaven.
God choose the dwell in human form in order to reconcile/atone for the sins of mankind--- take the death penalty which mankind could not pay and live.
When the earthly temple/Tabernacle was destroyed/fulfilled by the Death of Jesus Christ, the Holy spirit of GOD will reside/dwell/abide in the hearts and minds of repentant and subimitting to the Will of the Father Believing Human Beings.(while metaphorically, yet in a sense a reality.)

The paradox is of your making. IF what you claim is true, THEN you have Scriptures that on the one hand say God can not be contained therefore can not yashab with men on Earth and on the other hand you claim there indeed exist as yet unseen verses that say God can yashab with men on the Earth and therefore be contained.

See above.

God can do many things, He can not yashab with men. You have not shown a verse that says He can either. There are other limitations, can God create a rock so heavy, that He can not lift it?

ah!! the vanity of man's philosophy/misunderstanding. The 'limitations' which man tries to impose upon GOD are endless. Can HE dig a hole so deep that HE can't jump out of it? Can HE build a wall so high that HE can't jump over it? etc., etc.
MY Creator GOD is interested in the Salvation of Mankind. Not in surcumbing to their selfserving entertainment/rebellion.

God changes not, i.e. did not change into a man(nor a bird).

He can't change from not being able to be contained to being able to be contained.

Fletch

Fletch, is that the true meaning in context of the "changes not"??? Or a false interpretation to fit a false premise/understanding??
Mal.3:6, "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
GOD is speaking about HIS Laws/principles of right living.

 

[Fletch]

Hi Sincerly,
I never ever said you did, so I guess we can lay that straw man in his grave and put flowers on it. :^)

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Fletch,
I didn't post any Scripture from Greek words, but those I posted are clear. GOD has in the past and will in the future "yashab"/Dwell with mankind just as those Scriptures stated which I posted.



What is a strawman is yourclaiming that the O.T. Scripture is "corrupt". and then use "yashab" a Hebrew word in stead of the Greek. It betrays your: """


I have shown you from both the O.T. and N.T. where GOD has and will "Dwell with mankind".


No, it is NOT my understanding tha man has any control over GOD that man can put GOD anywhere that GOD hasn't agreed to be.
GOD Choose to dwell with mankind in the Garden and with/to Moses in the tabernacle that was to be made on earth after the pattern of the one in heaven.
God choose the dwell in human form in order to reconcile/atone for the sins of mankind--- take the death penalty which mankind could not pay and live.
When the earthly temple/Tabernacle was destroyed/fulfilled by the Death of Jesus Christ, the Holy spirit of GOD will reside/dwell/abide in the hearts and minds of repentant and subimitting to the Will of the Father Believing Human Beings.(while metaphorically, yet in a sense a reality.)



See above.



ah!! the vanity of man's philosophy/misunderstanding. The 'limitations' which man tries to impose upon GOD are endless. Can HE dig a hole so deep that HE can't jump out of it? Can HE build a wall so high that HE can't jump over it? etc., etc.
MY Creator GOD is interested in the Salvation of Mankind. Not in surcumbing to their selfserving entertainment/rebellion.



Fletch, is that the true meaning in context of the "changes not"??? Or a false interpretation to fit a false premise/understanding??
Mal.3:6, "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
GOD is speaking about HIS Laws/principles of right living.

Hi Sincerly,
Forget everything I ever said, you are missing too many points and it is distracting from the subject at hand. So please answer just one thing.

Can you name anywhere in the Holy Hebrew Scriptures where God yashab with men upon the Earth.

Fletch

 

[sincerly]

Hi Sincerly,
Forget everything I ever said, you are missing too many points and it is distracting from the subject at hand. So please answer just one thing.

Can you name anywhere in the Holy Hebrew Scriptures where God yashab with men upon the Earth.

Fletch

PS I do not think you will be able to find any since God can't be contained. I think if you could have, we would have seen a verse.

Fletch, God isn't seen in a physical form, but HIS Presence was seen in the form of those columns of clouds and Fire over the earthly sanctuary where HE said HE would meet with the people. And that in answer to "I will dwell with them."

Again, these Scriptures from the Hebrew Scriptures:

I gave you this scripture Ex.29:42-46, "And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God. And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God."
And,
1Kings 6:12-14, "Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it."

Didn't GOD dwell with mankind in that first "earthly tabernacle" which GOD said was "patterned after the one in heaven? YES. And wasn't GOD'S presence in that "tabernacle" seen by the Israelites(and all else) in the cloudy pillar by day and the pillar of fire by night for more than forty years (until they possessed the "promised land")? Yes.


yaw-shab' Verb Definition

1. to dwell, remain, sit, abide
   1. (Qal)
      1. to sit, sit down
      2. to be set
      3. to remain, stay
      4. to dwell, have one's abode
   2. (Niphal) to be inhabited
   3. (Piel) to set, place
   4. (Hiphil)
      1. to cause to sit
      2. to cause to abide, set
      3. to cause to dwell
      4. to cause (cities) to be inhabited
      5. to marry (give an dwelling to)
   5. (Hophal)
      1. to be inhabited
      2. to make to dwell

Go back to your own "yashab" posted site that Hebrew word translated into English means to dwell with/among That is Strong's #H3427, but it isn't translated as God dwelling with man.

However, are you aware of the Hebrew word "Shakan" which has the English meaning of Dwelling, abiding, settling down, tabernacle or residing. #H7931
It is the usage seen in my above verses.

Notice Num.35:34, "Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel. "

I know of no verses which indicate "containment of GOD"---as in caged, trapped, in prisoned, chained, boxed in, etc.
However, one can invite GOD to be the LORD GOD of one's being and abide in one's life. HIS CHOICE to do SO.

 

[Fletch]

Hi Sincerly,

Fletch, God isn't seen in a physical form, but HIS Presence was seen in the form of those columns of clouds and Fire over the earthly sanctuary where HE said HE would meet with the people. And that in answer to "I will dwell with them."

Nothing was seen, they only heard His voice period. As Deut 4 points out, God would not appear in any form like a man or a bird lest people then corrupt themselves and worship those forms. God said to be careful about such a thing.

Again, these Scriptures from the Hebrew Scriptures:

I gave you this scripture Ex.29:42-46, "And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God. And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God."
And,
1Kings 6:12-14, "Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it."

I have already agreed that God can shakan with men on Earth. I never asked you for a verse that has God tabernacling/shakan with man, I asked for and wanted "yashab", which is what the Hebrew Scriptures state God can not do. This is another way of stating that God is omnipresent.

Didn't GOD dwell with mankind in that first "earthly tabernacle" which GOD said was "patterned after the one in heaven? YES. And wasn't GOD'S presence in that "tabernacle" seen by the Israelites(and all else) in the cloudy pillar by day and the pillar of fire by night for more than forty years (until they possessed the "promised land")? Yes.

God tabernacked in the tabernacle or shakened. Jews do not believe God was EVER contained inside the Temple.

yaw-shab' Verb Definition

1. to dwell, remain, sit, abide
   1. (Qal)
      1. to sit, sit down
      2. to be set
      3. to remain, stay
      4. to dwell, have one's abode
   2. (Niphal) to be inhabited
   3. (Piel) to set, place
   4. (Hiphil)
      1. to cause to sit
      2. to cause to abide, set
      3. to cause to dwell
      4. to cause (cities) to be inhabited
      5. to marry (give an dwelling to)
   5. (Hophal)
      1. to be inhabited
      2. to make to dwell

Go back to your own "yashab" posted site that Hebrew word translated into English means to dwell with/among That is Strong's #H3427, but it isn't translated as God dwelling with man.

However, are you aware of the Hebrew word "Shakan" which has the English meaning of Dwelling, abiding, settling down, tabernacle or residing. #H7931
It is the usage seen in my above verses.

The Hebrew Scriptures state that God can shakan with men on Earth, but God can not yashab with men on Earth because not only can this Earth not contain God, but even the heaven of heavens can not contain God(or flesh).

Notice Num.35:34, "Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel. "

Sigh, shakan again. I agree, God can indeed shakan with man on Earth or even with angels in heaven. To be clear, Shakan, not yashab.

Again, God is omnipresent is what this is saying. If God could yahab with men, then He would not be omnipresent.

I know of no verses which indicate "containment of GOD"---as in caged, trapped, in prisoned, chained, boxed in, etc.
However, one can invite GOD to be the LORD GOD of one's being and abide in one's life. HIS CHOICE to do SO.

Since God can not be contained, it would be expected that no Hebrew verse would exist that indicates God is any of those things. That is precisely why you could not find a verse with yashab in it describing God.

I do think the Greek NT thinks Jesus was caged in a flesh body/house.

Fletch

PS Where did Muffled go?

 

[sincerly]

Fletch, God isn't seen in a physical form, but HIS Presence was seen in the form of those columns of clouds and Fire over the earthly sanctuary where HE said HE would meet with the people. And that in answer to "I will dwell with them."

Hi Sincerly, Nothing was seen, they only heard His voice period. As Deut 4 points out, God would not appear in any form like a man or a bird lest people then corrupt themselves and worship those forms. God said to be careful about such a thing.

I have already agreed that God can shakan with men on Earth. I never asked you for a verse that has God tabernacling/shakan with man, I asked for and wanted "yashab", which is what the Hebrew Scriptures state God can not do. This is another way of stating that God is omnipresent.

Hi Fletch, Deut.4 expresses several times the "your eyes have seen" the power of GOD being with them---in their presence.
You are wanting to argue semantics---when both "yashab and shakan" express the same meaning "to dwell" as you posted and acknowledged---with this definition.
yaw-shab' Verb Definition

1. to dwell, remain, sit, abide
   1. (Qal)
      1. to dwell, have one's abode
   2. 1. to cause to dwell
      2. (Hophal)
      1. to make to dwell

God tabernacked in the tabernacle or shakened. Jews do not believe God was EVER contained inside the Temple.

The Hebrew Scriptures state that God can shakan with men on Earth, but God can not yashab with men on Earth because not only can this Earth not contain God, but even the heaven of heavens can not contain God(or flesh).

Sigh, shakan again. I agree, God can indeed shakan with man on Earth or even with angels in heaven. To be clear, Shakan, not yashab.

Again, God is omnipresent is what this is saying. If God could yahab with men, then He would not be omnipresent.

Since God can not be contained, it would be expected that no Hebrew verse would exist that indicates God is any of those things. That is precisely why you could not find a verse with yashab in it describing God.

I do think the Greek NT thinks Jesus was caged in a flesh body/house.

Fletch, GOD is "omnipresent" and the NT Scriptures express that fact just as the OT does. NO! GOD isn't contained(meaning--caged, placed in a box, controlled, imprisoned) by mankind. However, GOD the Son is seen in those OT animal sacrifices as the propitiation for the redemption of mankind and the restoration of all things which man had lost/forfieted to the usurper/adversary by disobedience.

That principle was first seen in the animal sacrifice made BY GOD IN PAYMENT OF THE DEATH PENALTY IMPOSED AS A RESULT OF DISOBEDIENCE.(Gen.3:21)
Their "fig leaves" was not sufficient. Just as Lev. 17:11 stated. Also, as was seen in the sacrifice of the "Lord's goat" in those yearly Day of Atonement festival sacrifices.

 

[Fletch]

Sincerly,

Fletch, God isn't seen in a physical form, but HIS Presence was seen in the form of those columns of clouds and Fire over the earthly sanctuary where HE said HE would meet with the people. And that in answer to "I will dwell with them."

Deut 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

...15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air

Hi Fletch, Deut.4 expresses several times the "your eyes have seen" the power of GOD being with them---in their presence.
You are wanting to argue semantics---when both "yashab and shakan" express the same meaning "to dwell" as you posted and acknowledged---with this definition.
yaw-shab' Verb Definition

1. to dwell, remain, sit, abide
   1. (Qal)
      1. to dwell, have one's abode
   2. 1. to cause to dwell
      2. (Hophal)
      1. to make to dwell

Scripture states there is a difference between shakan and yashab by stating God can do one, but can not do the other. That is a problem of all translations, many things get, well, "lost in translation".

Fletch, GOD is "omnipresent" and the NT Scriptures express that fact just as the OT does. NO! GOD isn't contained(meaning--caged, placed in a box, controlled, imprisoned) by mankind.

Ahhh, another straw man. You like making them. Who said "by mankind"? Your deity is caged by flesh.

However, GOD the Son is seen in those OT animal sacrifices as the propitiation for the redemption of mankind and the restoration of all things which man had lost/forfieted to the usurper/adversary by disobedience.

The sacrifice of one's son is an absolute abomination to the Creator who rested on the seventh day. One that He especially hates, and drinking that sacrifice blood is another extreme abomination(see Deut 12).

Deut 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth , have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

That principle was first seen in the animal sacrifice made BY GOD IN PAYMENT OF THE DEATH PENALTY IMPOSED AS A RESULT OF DISOBEDIENCE.(Gen.3:21)
Their "fig leaves" was not sufficient. Just as Lev. 17:11 stated. Also, as was seen in the sacrifice of the "Lord's goat" in those yearly Day of Atonement festival sacrifices.

God does not need have to have for forgiveness of sin, that is a total Greek NT invention.

Is 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise .

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire ; mine ears hast thou opened : burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required

Ez 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed , and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live , he shall not die . 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed , they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live . 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live ?

Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Fletch

 

[sincerly]

Sincerly,

Deut 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 , but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

...15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air

Scripture states there is a difference between shakan and yashab by stating God can do one, but can not do the other. That is a problem of all translations, many things get, well, "lost in translation".

Ahhh, another straw man. You like making them. Who said "by mankind"? Your deity is caged by flesh.

The sacrifice of one's son is an absolute abomination to the Creator who rested on the seventh day. One that He especially hates, and drinking that sacrifice blood is another extreme abomination(see Deut 12).
Smilies
Deut 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth , have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

God does not need have to have for forgiveness of sin, that is a total Greek NT invention.

Is 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise .

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire ; mine ears hast thou opened : burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required

Ez 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed , and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live , he shall not die . 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed , they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live . 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live ?

Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Fletch

Hi Fletch, "yashab/Dwell," Ex.15:17 says, "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established. "

Remember, Moses stated to GOD NOT to take the people to the promised land unless GOD go with them.

The Scriptural verses are correct----no comment needed on them. However, What do you think "is lost in translation"?

I know of no "Christian" "belief" that sacrifices their sons and daughters. Nor drinks blood.

NO! My Creator GOD is not "caged by flesh"; however, since Mankind could not pay the sin penalty without "death" of self, my Creator GOD loved HIS Creation so much that God the Father Sent HIS SON to Redeem/Pay that death penalty for all who choose to accept the offer. As Ezekekiel(18) states---Repent and Return-- submitting one's life/Being to the Will of the Father.

The Father who gives LIFE allowed HIS SON to forfeit HIS LIFE and take it again.

Are you claiming that is impossible for the Creator GOD--- Who made all things from "nothing"??? It is the principle which I see in all those animal sacrifices. Believe that which seems right to you (Prov.14:12).

 

[Fletch]

Hi Fletch, "yashab/Dwell," Ex.15:17 says, "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established. "

Sincerly,

Congratulations you finally did find one, how come you gave me all those shakan verses? That is what forum are for to find truth under pressure of the hot spot lights. I looked at yashab and there were so many to look for, I played it lazy to let you go through them all. I just clicked on that very same word construct in Ex 15:17 and found two even better verses from Solomon himself:

1 Kings 8:13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.

2 Chron 6:2 But I have built an house of habitation for thee, and a place for thy dwelling for ever.

I will have to reexamine what is being said since Solomon said this as well:

1 Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded ?

2 Chron 2:6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

2 Chron 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built !
I will have to look more into this. It is clear that Solomon still does not believe God is contained.

Remember, Moses stated to GOD NOT to take the people to the promised land unless GOD go with them.

The Scriptural verses are correct----no comment needed on them. However, What do you think "is lost in translation"?

You found the right word, though I still need time to look into it and see how to read this since Scripture can not have paradox in it.

I know of no "Christian" "belief" that sacrifices their sons and daughters. Nor drinks blood.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

NO! My Creator GOD is not "caged by flesh"; however, since Mankind could not pay the sin penalty without "death" of self, my Creator GOD loved HIS Creation so much that God the Father Sent HIS SON to Redeem/Pay that death penalty for all who choose to accept the offer. As Ezekekiel(18) states---Repent and Return-- submitting one's life/Being to the Will of the Father.

Ezekiel 18 has no blood, no death penalty. No man can redeem another. Jesus is a creature according to the NT author, Jesus did not rest on the seventh day, God did. There is no lessor God in the Hebrew Scriptures only God and none else.

Not caged by flesh? Are claiming Jesus did NOT come in 100% flesh, but a smaller percentage thereof????????????

The Father who gives LIFE allowed HIS SON to forfeit HIS LIFE and take it again.

Allowed, you sure about that?

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further , and fell on his face, and prayed , saying , O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will , but as thou wilt.

Are you claiming that is impossible for the Creator GOD--- Who made all things from "nothing"??? It is the principle which I see in all those animal sacrifices. Believe that which seems right to you (Prov.14:12).

The sacrifices are blessings God that gives good people.

Christianity claims it is impossible for God to forgive sins without blood. I have previously shown you many verses where God does forgive abundantly without blood, but did not show this one yet:

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill , and I make alive ; I wound , and I heal : neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Fletch

 

[sincerly]

Sincerly,

Congratulations you finally did find one, how come you gave me all those shakan verses? That is what forum are for to find truth under pressure of the hot spot lights. I looked at yashab and there were so many to look for, I played it lazy to let you go through them all. I just clicked on that very same word construct in Ex 15:17 and found two even better verses from Solomon himself:

Hi Fletch, The English word "dwell" may be translated from both of the Hebrew words. But when GOD stated that HE would "dwell with man"----HE did so.
It really doesn't carry much authority for man to proclaim something----When GOD has said contrarily.---And GOD doesn't lie.

You found the right word, though I still need time to look into it and see how to read this since Scripture can not have paradox in it.

Fletch, Prov.14:12, states, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. "

That isn't an error by GOD or the Scriptures , but a misinterpretation by man.

I know of no "Christian" "belief" that sacrifices their sons and daughters. Nor drinks blood.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Fletch, John 3:16, is very clear whose SON was the sacrificed/voluntarily gave up a life as a human Being to pay the death penalty for a sinner----Me! Thank you Father, for loving me enough to give me the life's blood of your SON so that I might live to be your loving servant forever.

What was the point Jesus was making in John 6:1-71?
Jesus Likened himself to the "manna" that was received for 40 years. Jesus had just fed 5000 with five barley loves and two small fishes(a boys lunch)--and they were all "as much as they would"---with 12 basketfuls of fragments extra.
Then those Acknowledged that Jesus was "that prophet that should come into the world" and would have made HIM king, but Jesus went into to the mountain alone.
The multitude "took shipping" and crossed over to the other side.
In answer to, "When did you come over"? Jesus said, "You didn't seek me (here) because you saw the miracles(evidence of the working of the same GOD as at Sinai), but because ye ate the loaves and was filled."
Then what did ask for? "What shall we do, that we might work the works of GOD?"
IOW, just tell us how to produce all that food so we don't have to labor---or follow you about.
They were not ready to learn about the food that doesn't perish and is only obtained by/from the symbolic living bread---the "I AM".

As Lev.17:11, states, One's life is in the blood. And since all are dead in trespasses and sins, one is in need of an adequate transfusion.

Ezekiel 18 has no blood, no death penalty. No man can redeem another. Jesus is a creature according to the NT author, Jesus did not rest on the seventh day, God did. There is no lessor God in the Hebrew Scriptures only God and none else.

Fletch, sin offerings and "Sin" are seen in Ezekeiel. Those are "blood sacrifices" as seen in Leviticus. Why are you denying the fact?

I agree that no man is able to redeem another man, because all of mankind is subject to the same death penalty.

The English word translated "creature" in Revelation doesn't mean that which you are implying ---And Jesus did Keep the Seventh Day Sabbath just as GOD directed.

Not caged by flesh? Are claiming Jesus did NOT come in 100% flesh, but a smaller percentage thereof????????????

Well, let's see how to put this. Jesus was born of woman as the SON of GOD. HE lived this life being subjected to all the trials and temptations which mankind endures ---but unlike Adam and Eve HE didn't DISOBEY the FATHER at ALL---NONE.
Jesus voluntarily Gave HIS LIFE for the propitiation of Mankind(That was the purpose of all those animal sacrifices which "shed their blood", but were only symbolic until Jesus came to "fulfill" those promised redeeming sacrifices.)

Jesus was 100% GOD(the SON) and 100% man.-----There's your paradox.---BUT it is TRUE.

Allowed, you sure about that?

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further , and fell on his face, and prayed , saying , O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will , but as thou wilt.


The sacrifices are blessings God that gives good people.

Christianity claims it is impossible for God to forgive sins without blood. I have previously shown you many verses where God does forgive abundantly without blood, but did not show this one yet:

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill , and I make alive ; I wound , and I heal : neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Fletch[/quote]

Yes, I'm Sure! Malachi recorded,(3:6), "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

Deut.32:39, above re-enforces that fact. NO wicked will be with out that confessing and repenting. and if you think that there is no more Animal sacrifices---therefore, no blood sacrifies you are fooling your self. That Isa.7:14 ; Matt.1:23, "seed" already has been sacrificed and is the "blood" the Scriptures state is necessary for that door post and lintel.

 

[Fletch]

Hi Sincerly,

Hi Fletch, The English word "dwell" may be translated from both of the Hebrew words. But when GOD stated that HE would "dwell with man"----HE did so.

It does not matter what the some English translation has(nor any other translation), that is irrelevant since the Scriptures are written in Hebrew and Hebrew only.

It really doesn't carry much authority for man to proclaim something----When GOD has said contrarily.---And GOD doesn't lie.

God is not a man(nor even son of man) that he should lie.(see Numbers 23:19)

Fletch, Prov.14:12, states, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. "

That isn't an error by GOD or the Scriptures , but a misinterpretation by man.

Hence the reason I said Scriptures can not have a paradox.

Fletch, John 3:16, is very clear whose SON was the sacrificed/voluntarily gave up a life as a human Being to pay the death penalty for a sinner----Me!

I know, that is precisely why I put it up to show that the NT author has God performing an act that the Holy One of Israel says in Duet 12 is an abomination that He especially hates.

Thank you Father, for loving me enough to give me the life's blood of your SON so that I might live to be your loving servant forever.

You really should read about that huge new wine snare religion that errors through wine in Isaiah 24 and 28!

What was the point Jesus was making in John 6:1-71?
Jesus Likened himself to the "manna" that was received for 40 years. Jesus had just fed 5000 with five barley loves and two small fishes(a boys lunch)--and they were all "as much as they would"---with 12 basketfuls of fragments extra.
Then those Acknowledged that Jesus was "that prophet that should come into the world" and would have made HIM king, but Jesus went into to the mountain alone.
The multitude "took shipping" and crossed over to the other side.
In answer to, "When did you come over"? Jesus said, "You didn't seek me (here) because you saw the miracles(evidence of the working of the same GOD as at Sinai), but because ye ate the loaves and was filled."
Then what did ask for? "What shall we do, that we might work the works of GOD?"
IOW, just tell us how to produce all that food so we don't have to labor---or follow you about.
They were not ready to learn about the food that doesn't perish and is only obtained by/from the symbolic living bread---the "I AM".

The pagan practice of cannibalistic drinking of the blood and eating the flesh of a deity is an absolute abomination that the Creator does not like.

As Lev.17:11, states, One's life is in the blood. And since all are dead in trespasses and sins, one is in need of an adequate transfusion.

NT falsehoods. You have seen that is not the case in the Hebrew Scriptures whatsoever.

Fletch, sin offerings and "Sin" are seen in Ezekeiel. Those are "blood sacrifices" as seen in Leviticus. Why are you denying the fact?

Joel 2 shows the turning to God is the key, the sacrifices are a blessing to be done when the conditions allow. Daniel and Hosea gave the sacrifices of the lips(i.e. prayer) when the Temple did not exist. The is no need of some beautiful bearded man-god to come and die for a few minutes.

I agree that no man is able to redeem another man, because all of mankind is subject to the same death penalty.

You do not agree since you think the man Jesus Christ died for the redemption of man and tasted death for everyone. That is the exact opposite of the new covenant described by Jeremiah in chapter 31.

The English word translated "creature" in Revelation doesn't mean that which you are implying ---And Jesus did Keep the Seventh Day Sabbath just as GOD directed.

1 Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Creature is Strong's #2937 and it is creature or creation.

Well, let's see how to put this. Jesus was born of woman as the SON of GOD. HE lived this life being subjected to all the trials and temptations which mankind endures ---but unlike Adam and Eve HE didn't DISOBEY the FATHER at ALL---NONE.

Lots of people do not disobey, Job was perfect, your Greek storybook has characters that do not disobey like Mary's cousins.

To say God Himself has some sort of minute temptation or hardship being human would be laughable. This verse comes to mind:

Is 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker ! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Jesus voluntarily Gave HIS LIFE for the propitiation of Mankind(That was the purpose of all those animal sacrifices which "shed their blood", but were only symbolic until Jesus came to "fulfill" those promised redeeming sacrifices.)

Sacrifices will be in the future as seen in Isaiah 56 and elsewhere. The Levites will need to eat(but not drink the blood) Human sacrifice is an abomination.

Jesus was 100% GOD(the SON) and 100% man.-----There's your paradox.---BUT it is TRUE.

Was Jesus contained by the flesh or did he come omnipresent and therefore by definition was elsewhere too? You did tell me that you thought he was omnipresent although the author says Jesus does not know when the end times come(i.e. not omnipresent there or at least not there with a Timex watch with day and date on it).

Yes, I'm Sure! Malachi recorded,(3:6), "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

Jesus asked that he not be killed and said it was God's will, not his own. Perhaps he was mistaken and you are correct.

God is not going to change into a flesh man so if some false religion comes along with a new lesser god, newly come up and says to worship God as a flesh man, the sons of Jacob will not be consumed since they should know that it can not be God because God does not change.

Deut.32:39, above re-enforces that fact. NO wicked will be with out that confessing and repenting. and if you think that there is no more Animal sacrifices---therefore, no blood sacrifies you are fooling your self. That Isa.7:14 ; Matt.1:23, "seed" already has been sacrificed and is the "blood" the Scriptures state is necessary for that door post and lintel.

Deut 32:39 shows that God does not need blood, He can do anything, does even need confessing or repenting if He so chooses from that verse.

Ezekiel 18 says to turn and repent and your sins will be abundantly pardoned, sorry, no mention of a lesser demigod coming down and dying for my sins and my drinking its blood and eating its flesh. Not there.

Fletch

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Fletch, The English word "dwell" may be translated from both of the Hebrew words. But when GOD stated that HE would "dwell with man"----HE did so.

Hi Sincerly, It does not matter what the some English translation has(nor any other translation), that is irrelevant since the Scriptures are written in Hebrew and Hebrew only.

GOD didn't "dwell" in a language, however, it is a fact, GOD did dwell with the people.

It really doesn't carry much authority for man to proclaim something----When GOD has said contrarily.---And GOD doesn't lie.

God is not a man(nor even son of man) that he should lie.(see Numbers 23:19)

Balaam told Balak correctly as directed by GOD. That principle is still what is seen in this thread. Deut.12:31-32,"Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. "

Isn't that the actions of AHAZ(and the people)? 2Kings 16:3, "But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel."

Fletch, Prov.14:12, states, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. "

That isn't an error by GOD or the Scriptures , but a misinterpretation by man.

Hence the reason I said Scriptures can not have a paradox.

Eve concluded that what the serpent was saying was acceptable over what GOD had said.

I know, that is precisely why I put it up to show that the NT author has God performing an act that the Holy One of Israel says in Duet 12 is an abomination that He especially hates.

Fletch, Did GOD ask for Human sacrifices in the Atonement for sins? NO!, However, a person could bring a specified sacrifice to the Altar and its blood would be offered for/in place of the person's whose animal it was sin debt.

Notice in that sacrifice scene of "sons and daughters" which were abominations to GOD there was nothing said concerning the SON of GOD.
GOD had instructed Abraham to "Sacrifice Isaac" and Isaac was told that GOD WOULD PROVIDE THE CORRECT AND ACCEPTABLE SACRIFICE----At the appropriate time in earth's history.-----DONE.

You really should read about that huge new wine snare religion that errors through wine in Isaiah 24 and 28!

What was the point Jesus was making in John 6:1-71?
Jesus Likened himself to the "manna" that was received for 40 years. Jesus had just fed 5000 with five barley loves and two small fishes(a boys lunch)--and they were all "as much as they would"---with 12 basketfuls of fragments extra.
Then those Acknowledged that Jesus was "that prophet that should come into the world" and would have made HIM king, but Jesus went into to the mountain alone.
The multitude "took shipping" and crossed over to the other side.
In answer to, "When did you come over"? Jesus said, "You didn't seek me (here) because you saw the miracles(evidence of the working of the same GOD as at Sinai), but because ye ate the loaves and was filled."
Then what did ask for? "What shall we do, that we might work the works of GOD?"
IOW, just tell us how to produce all that food so we don't have to labor---or follow you about.
They were not ready to learn about the food that doesn't perish and is only obtained by/from the symbolic living bread---the "I AM".

As with the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, the peoples were being deceived(by the wine of fornication) by such kings who had lead the people into idolatry and away from the Creator GOD.

The pagan practice of cannibalistic drinking of the blood and eating the flesh of a deity is an absolute abomination that the Creator does not like.

Along with Isaiah, Jonah, Joel, Hosea, Amos, Habakkuk, Zephaniah had been sent to the kingdoms to "turn them" from their wicked ways---it didn't Happen.
So what was so compelling concerning those "pagan practices".?

As Lev.17:11, states, One's life is in the blood. And since all are dead in trespasses and sins, one is in need of an adequate transfusion.

NT falsehoods. You have seen that is not the case in the Hebrew Scriptures whatsoever.

Fletch, had the Israelites remained true/obedient to GOD those dark periods would not have occurred.

Fletch, sin offerings and "Sin" are seen in Ezekeiel. Those are "blood sacrifices" as seen in Leviticus. Why are you denying the fact?

Joel 2 shows the turning to God is the key, the sacrifices are a blessing to be done when the conditions allow. Daniel and Hosea gave the sacrifices of the lips(i.e. prayer) when the Temple did not exist. The is no need of some beautiful bearded man-god to come and die for a few minutes.

That "beautiful bearded man god" wasn't scheduled "to come" during Ezekiel's day. And the animal sacrifices(blood) were still happening during the life-time of Jesus Christ.

I agree that no man is able to redeem another man, because all of mankind is subject to the same death penalty.

You do not agree since you think the man Jesus Christ died for the redemption of man and tasted death for everyone. That is the exact opposite of the new covenant described by Jeremiah in chapter 31.

Fletch, That "new covenant" is the agreement to live by---truly have GOD as one's GOD in total submission to the Father's Will. Jesus Christ died for all persons who acknowledge that their disobedience is as GOD Said worthy of death. Jesus paid that death sentence for Me.---I Praise HIM for Loving me.
BTW, did you acknowledge Jer.32:27,? "
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?"

1 Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Creature is Strong's #2937 and it is creature or creation.

Vs.16-17, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

 

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Fletch, The English word "dwell" may be translated from both of the Hebrew words. But when GOD stated that HE would "dwell with man"----HE did so.

Sincerly,
What are the Chinese translations of the Hebrew words, maybe that will change things if translations have this much power.

GOD didn't "dwell" in a language, however, it is a fact, GOD did dwell with the people.

God did write the Ten Commandments in a pure language and Isaiah did warn about a huge, known for singing glory to God and to the righteous false snare religion that would be in another tongue.

Balaam told Balak correctly as directed by GOD. That principle is still what is seen in this thread. Deut.12:31-32,"Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. "

Isn't that the actions of AHAZ(and the people)? 2Kings 16:3, "But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel."

Yes, sacrificing one's son is an abomination to God, even if Ahaz does it. It does show complete and absolute devotion to the false god. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son as a test, repeat only a test, to see if Abraham had that kind of devotion. There never was a chance God would have let him commit the abomination. I don't know what your point about Balaam to Balak was, you will have to be more detailed.

Eve concluded that what the serpent was saying was acceptable over what GOD had said.

OK, was there suppose to be a point here?

Fletch, Did GOD ask for Human sacrifices in the Atonement for sins? NO!, However, a person could bring a specified sacrifice to the Altar and its blood would be offered for/in place of the person's whose animal it was sin debt.

Notice in that sacrifice scene of "sons and daughters" which were abominations to GOD there was nothing said concerning the SON of GOD.
GOD had instructed Abraham to "Sacrifice Isaac" and Isaac was told that GOD WOULD PROVIDE THE CORRECT AND ACCEPTABLE SACRIFICE----At the appropriate time in earth's history.-----DONE.

I agree, it is right there in the text:
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked , and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

As with the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, the peoples were being deceived(by the wine of fornication) by such kings who had lead the people into idolatry and away from the Creator GOD.

Not sure of the point, but Judah often had greatly good kings.

Along with Isaiah, Jonah, Joel, Hosea, Amos, Habakkuk, Zephaniah had been sent to the kingdoms to "turn them" from their wicked ways---it didn't Happen.

Judah turned from their wicked ways and came back to the land of Judah in Ezra. You and I know from Isaiah that Ephraim will be caught up in a huge world wide false rest for the weary snare religion right up to the end times.

So what was so compelling concerning those "pagan practices".?

It would be crazy to think God would change and want to mimic them.

Fletch, had the Israelites remained true/obedient to GOD those dark periods would not have occurred.

Psalms 44 and Isaiah 53 tells of a group that proves your claim wrong.

That "beautiful bearded man god" wasn't scheduled "to come" during Ezekiel's day. And the animal sacrifices(blood) were still happening during the life-time of Jesus Christ.

They were not during Daniel's day.

Fletch, That "new covenant" is the agreement to live by---truly have GOD as one's GOD in total submission to the Father's Will. Jesus Christ died for all persons who acknowledge that their disobedience is as GOD Said worthy of death. Jesus paid that death sentence for Me.---I Praise HIM for Loving me.
BTW, did you acknowledge Jer.32:27,? "
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?"

This is what the new covenant says, it is the exact opposite of what you said:

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge

I am sorry, we are way off the thread's subject matter, perhaps we should get back to that.

Fletch

 

[CG Didymus]

I am sorry, we are way off the thread's subject matter, perhaps we should get back to that.

Fletch

Some of the best stuff is off topic. Anyway, it's all related. Bottom line, Christianity works for the believer, no matter how strange and convoluted their explanations become. Kind of like those weird orbits the planets used to do when the Earth was the center of the Universe.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Fletch, The English word "dwell" may be translated from both of the Hebrew words. But when GOD stated that HE would "dwell with man"----HE did so.

Sincerly,
What are the Chinese translations of the Hebrew words, maybe that will change things if translations have this much power.

Hi Fletch, I have been out-of-town for awhile therefore, the delay in answering.
Truth in translation would give the same meaning to the message no matter the language.
Thediscrepancyy in the massages of GOD is the result of those who falsify what GOD has said. (as did the serpent to Eve.)

GOD didn't "dwell" in a language, however, it is a fact, GOD did dwell with the people.

God did write the Ten Commandments in a pure language and Isaiah did warn about a huge, known for singing glory to God and to the righteous false snare religion that would be in another tongue.

All of the prophet's writings which GOD sent to HIS erring peoples was "pure", It was the disobeying peoples who were following the false gods and being "snared" away from following the True GOD.

[/quote=sincerly] Balaam told Balak correctly as directed by GOD. That principle is still what is seen in this thread. Deut.12:31-32,"Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Isn't that the actions of AHAZ(and the people)? 2Kings 16:3, "But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel."[/quote]

Yes, sacrificing one's son is an abomination to God, even if Ahaz does it. It does show complete and absolute devotion to the false god. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son as a test, repeat only a test, to see if Abraham had that kind of devotion. There never was a chance God would have let him commit the abomination. I don't know what your point about Balaam to Balak was, you will have to be more detailed.

Fletch, did GOD allow Balaam to curse the Israelites? NO. Did Balaam want to do Balak's bidding and secure the offered "reward for doing so"? Yes.
Previously, Abraham had tried to circumvent GOD'S stated "heir"---via Abraham's servant and then via Hagar--But GOD said the "heir" would come by way of Sarah(an impossible means in the eyes of man), But truly came to pass as GOD stated.
The truth concerning the atoning sacrifice was given in that meeting of Adam and Eve and the Serpent just after the disobedience----in the clothing the pair in the "skin of the animal"/Death- the "seed' of the woman.
That principle was seen in the refusal of Cain to offer the "blood sacrifice" which pointed forward to the "fullness of time" when "The SON of GOD" would fulfill that promised event. (Just as 1Peter 1:18-21 has shown)

[/quote=sincerly] Eve concluded that what the serpent was saying was acceptable over what GOD had said.[/quote]

OK, was there suppose to be a point here?

Do you not see that Eve had called GOD a liar rather than the serpent? And in effect, had made the serpent her lord and master?

[/quote=sincerly] Fletch, Did GOD ask for Human sacrifices in the Atonement for sins? NO!, However, a person could bring a specified sacrifice to the Altar and its blood would be offered for/in place of the person's whose animal it was sin debt.

Notice in that sacrifice scene of "sons and daughters" which were abominations to GOD there was nothing said concerning the SON of GOD.
GOD had instructed Abraham to "Sacrifice Isaac" and Isaac was told that GOD WOULD PROVIDE THE CORRECT AND ACCEPTABLE SACRIFICE----At the appropriate time in earth's history.-----DONE.[/quote]

I agree, it is right there in the text:
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked , and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

There is nothing that mankind can offer to satisfy the "penalty for sin which is death". Death is a forfeiture of the life one possesses.
In the sanctuary service, the Day of Atonement was the offering of the Lord's Goat for the "scapegoat"----all the sins of the people were placed upon the "scapegoat".
God has "provided a sacrifice" for the Atonement of those who have repented and submitted to the Will of the Father---Just as Abraham said and believed.

[/quote=sincerly] As with the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, the peoples were being deceived(by the wine of fornication) by such kings who had lead the people into idolatry and away from the Creator GOD.[/quote]

Not sure of the point, but Judah often had greatly good kings.

Fletch, Then why did GOD send the prophets with messages to repent and return to GOD? Read Daniel's prayer recorded in Dan. 9:1-9.

Judah turned from their wicked ways and came back to the land of Judah in Ezra. You and I know from Isaiah that Ephraim will be caught up in a huge world wide false rest for the weary snare religion right up to the end times.


It would be crazy to think God would change and want to mimic them.

Yes, After the 70 years of captivity in Babylon, the Israelites were freed to return to Judah and rebuild the Temple and Jerusalem.

Where is the "promised land" today? Daniel prophesied correctly(9:24-27) and Jesus wept over the hardness of the people in Matt.23:37-38, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate".

Fletch, had the Israelites remained true/obedient to GOD those dark periods would not have occurred.

Psalms 44 and Isaiah 53 tells of a group that proves your claim wrong.

It appears that you understand what I have written.

Fletch, That "new covenant" is the agreement to live by---truly have GOD as one's GOD in total submission to the Father's Will. Jesus Christ died for all persons who acknowledge that their disobedience is as GOD Said worthy of death. Jesus paid that death sentence for Me.---I Praise HIM for Loving me.
BTW, did you acknowledge Jer.32:27,? "
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?"

They were not during Daniel's day.
This is what the new covenant says, it is the exact opposite of what you said:

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge

Fletch, There was no animal sacrifices for sins during the Babylonian captivity. They were in captivity---because of disobedience to the Creator GOD. Daniel only tells about the Three who refused to bow to the golden image.

Take a good look at the above verse and its context following. Re: covenant.
"Jer.31:31-34, Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. "

 

[Muffled]

Not me, you think Scripture is in error:

Gen 12 And God said , This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between me and the earth.


Ezek 4:3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.


A sign is something that is seen. Ahaz, unless a time traveling gynecologist, would not have seen any sign. Joseph, Mary's husband, closer than any one else, did not see any sign.

Few signs are miracles in Scripture, I think maybe Hezekiah had a miracle sign, can't think of any others right off hand now.

Gen 1:14 And God said , Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


Isaiah said his sons were for signs right in Isaiah 7:14's context:

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.



I gave an example of a girl who could be a virgin who would not be stoned. Why on Earth would I give an example of a girl who would be stoned to make my point? Had Dinah been pregnant from the rape, she would not be stoned.

Why in the NT storyline was not Mary stoned seeing she was husband to Joseph ?????



Tamar was king David's daughter and Dinah was Jacob's. God's perfect law was around for both. God's law existed long before Moses and Israel made a covenant to follow it.

1 Chron 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

God's law(which David called a delight) existed and was followed by Abraham:

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Shall conceive is how the KJV reads(not Hebrew text). Virgins shall conceive all the time, in fact it could have been said at one time in every mother's life who has ever existed.


Me thinks you missed my point there.



He had to be told because he did not see the sign. Nobody saw it:

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?


I agree with this statement because no mention of anything of the sort is in Scripture. Almah for starters does not mean nor ever will mean virign, bethulah is the Hebrew word for virgin. Mary named her son in the NT story Jesus, not Immanuel.


Some prophecy fulfillment.

I am open for a Scripture example that is not chapter "thin", verse "air" thank you.


What is the word of God or what did Isaiah write in? The Hebrew text or "the NASB"?



For me it is written in the Hebrew Scriptures, that is what I have to go by.

See thls footnote from the Christian Netbible:

2 tn Heb “the young woman.” The Hebrew article has been rendered as a demonstrative pronoun (“this&#8221 in the translation to bring out its force. It is very likely that Isaiah pointed to a woman who was present at the scene of the prophet’s interview with Ahaz. Isaiah’s address to the “house of David” and his use of second plural forms suggests other people were present, and his use of the second feminine singular verb form (“you will name&#8221 later in the verse is best explained if addressed to a woman who is present.



It was a rhetorical question with an immediate answer given. Your example does not show God dwelled with man on Earth. I have to go with the Scriptures, God can not be contained.
Fletch

I believe a sign can be something that can't be seen yet because it is prophecy. Re 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, which are the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.

 

[Muffled]

From thread "Did Jesus say He is God"

Not true. Emmanuel is Isaiah's son. Promised by God as a sign they would triumph, - hence his name is - God is with us.
He tells us further down that He and his sons are for SIGNS, - because that is what God says above (before the pregnancy) - ASK for a SIGN.
There are many names ending with God, - obviously they are not all God.
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I believe this is true but in Ch 8 God identifies Himself as Immanuel and not as Isaiah's son.

I beleive there is no scripture that says this.

I beleive that is true but that does not mean that it was the sign that God gave. I believe it was most likely a parallell to God's sign.

I believe one must make a connection and that the connection is not there.

 

[Ingledsva]

From thread "Did Jesus say He is God"

I believe this is true but in Ch 8 God identifies Himself as Immanuel and not as Isaiah's son.

INANNA - WOW! An oldie. What verse and number?

I beleive there is no scripture that says this.

INGLEDSVA - Even your Strong's will tell you this.

I beleive that is true but that does not mean that it was the sign that God gave. I believe it was most likely a parallell to God's sign.

INGLEDSVA - Why would there be a parallel? He was told to go in onto the Prophetess, and the result is the sign from God.

I believe one must make a connection and that the connection is not there.

They were told to ask for a sign. Thus he was told to go into the Prophetess. She birthed Emmanuel as a SIGN. His name = God is with us. A sign for them and the warring people.

7:1 tells us we are talking about Isaiah and Ahaz.
7:10-13 tells us God tells Ahaz to ask for a sign, but Azah feels this would be an imposition.

7:14 tells us THEN God gives AHAZ a sign - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin/maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel.

NOTE - the sign is for Ahaz and Isaiah!!!!! NOT SOME FUTURE DATE, OR PEOPLE!

8:1 Here he is told to record concerning Mahershalalhashbaz. His ceremonial name.

8:3 He wrote - And I (Isaiah)went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz (Fast to the plunder, swift to the prey.)

8:8 Tells us HE, EMMANUEL.

8:18 Here ISAIAH tells us HE and his CHILDREN are for SIGNS, just as it says up in 7:13-14 and 8:3!

Isa 8:18 Behold, I (Isaiah) and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Isa 7:8 even gives us a time - ...,and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

If you look up Emmanuel in a Strong's, for instance, it will tell you Emmanuel is the name of Isaiah's son - also called Mahershalalhashbaz - Isa 8:3!

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[Muffled]

INANNA - WOW! An oldie. What verse and number?
8:8 & 8:10.