Matthew 11:12

[e.r.m.]

Sorry I've been away for a while. I wanted to present this question here because of the great analytical and exegetical skill the members here possess.

I'm told that Matthew 11:12 can be translated either way.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing and forceful men lay ahold of it.

Which do you think it is and why?

I believe the second is correct. I don't see why Jesus would refer to the kingdom as having been subjected to violence, and violent people raiding it.

What are your thoughts?

Thank you.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Who translated the first one?

 

[Pegg]

The New World Tranlsation renders it this way:

Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press (bi·a·stai′), and those pressing forward (bi·a′ze·tai are seizing it.

The Watchtower researched this verse and found the following:

Of the Greek verb bi·a′zo·mai used in this text, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says, “The verb suggests forceful endeavour.” (1981, Vol. 3, p. 208)
Regarding Matthew 11:12, German scholar Heinrich Meyer states: “In this way is described that eager, irresistible striving and struggling after the approaching Messianic kingdom .*.*. So eager and energetic (no longer calm and expectant) is the interest in regard to the kingdom. The [bi·a·stai′] are, accordingly, believers [not enemy attackers] struggling hard for its possession.”—Meyer’s Critical and Exegetical Hand-Book to the Gospel of Matthew, 1884, p. 225.

WT 1992 July 15th, Article entitled 'Pursuing the Kingdom' states:
Keep Pursuing the Kingdom
16 Earnest effort is required to keep on pursuing Kingdom realities. Are we not encouraged by the zealous example of the remaining anointed Christians? They have been pursuing Kingdom realities for decades. This pursuit was described in Jesus’ words: “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.” (Matthew 11:12) Here the thought is not that of enemies seizing the Kingdom. Rather, this pertains to the activity of those in line for the Kingdom. One Bible scholar said: “In this way is described that eager, irresistible striving and struggling after the approaching Messianic kingdom.” Anointed ones have spared no effort in making the Kingdom their own. Similar vigorous efforts are required of the “other sheep” in order for them to qualify as earthly subjects of God’s heavenly Kingdom.—John 10:16.

 

[e.r.m.]

Who translated the first one?

The new NIV.

 

[e.r.m.]

The New World Tranlsation renders it this way:

Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press (bi·a·stai′), and those pressing forward (bi·a′ze·tai are seizing it.

The Watchtower researched this verse and found the following:

Thank you. I'll look it up in the greek

 

[e.r.m.]

Forcefully advancing/subjected to violence
βιάζω
\{bee-ad'-zo}
1) to use force, to apply force 2) to force,
inflict violence on


lay ahold of it/have been raiding it.
ἁρπάζω
\{har-pad'-zo}
1) to seize, carry off by force 2) to seize on,
claim for one's self eagerly 3) to snatch out
or away

It seems it could go both ways, but the second makes more sense to me, so far, but I'm open.

 

[Pegg]

It's most likely the first translation.

why? Perhaps its neither.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Forcefully advancing/subjected to violence
βιάζω
\{bee-ad'-zo}
1) to use force, to apply force 2) to force,
inflict violence on

The word is βιάζεται, not βιάζω. The difference for many a modern speaker may seem irrelevant, but in ancient Greek the middle/passive form of a verb can and often does mean very different things than the active indicative. βιάζω means "I inflict violence", while βιάζεται means "to suffer violence/force". If you don't know how lexical morphology relates to lexical semantics, looking up the "definition" for some word in a highly inflected language like ancient Greece will simply mislead.

 

[e.r.m.]

You're right about βιάζεται. On greekbible.com I clicked on βιάζεται and instead it gave me βιάζω.. I hadn't noticed and I don't know why.

There is a parallel scripture

Luke 16:16

It renders it as
GRK: εἰς αὐτὴν βιάζεται
NAS: and everyone is forcing his
way into it.
KJV: and every man presseth into
it.
INT: into it forces

 

[Pegg]

You're right about βιάζεται. On greekbible.com I clicked on βιάζεται and instead it gave me βιάζω.. I hadn't noticed and I don't know why.

There is a parallel scripture

Luke 16:16

It renders it as
GRK: εἰς αὐτὴν βιάζεται
NAS: and everyone is forcing his
way into it.
KJV: and every man presseth into
it.
INT: into it forces

yes, so obtaining the kingdom is a struggle as Jesus said:

Matthew 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.

And I also think Pauls words are quite relevant in this regard:

Philippians 3:12-14 Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pressing on to see if I may also lay hold on that for which Christ Jesus selected me. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.

The kingdom of God is something for which we must struggle to obtain. Its not given out to everyone freely...its something we must put up a fight for. What are we fighting? Our own imperfect desires and sinfulness. These things can keep us from God...so we must continually fight our sinful nature in order to obtain the prize of everlasting life under Gods kingdom.

 

[M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh]

@e.r.m. -- my not-so-whiz-bang answer is this:

Which is the better translation of this verse?

One of the Church fathers wrote:

1. “’… it is to the ‘violent that the kingdom of God belongs.’" (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata IV-1)
2. "‘For the violent that storm the kingdom …’” (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata V-39)
3. “Nor does the kingdom of heaven belong to sleepers and sluggards, ‘but the violent take it by force.’” (Clement of Alexandria, Who is the Rich Man that Shall Be Saved? 24)

The Greek wording in this verse reads:

ΗΒΑCΙΛΕΙΑΤΩΝΟΥΡΑΝΩΝΒΙΑΖΕΤΑΙΚΑΙ
ΒΙΑCΤΑΙΑΡΠΑΖΟΥCΙΝΑΥΤΗΝ
(η βασιλεια των ουρανων βιαζεται και
βιασται αρπαζουσιν αυτην)

Codex B/03/Vaticanus (ca. 325-375 CE);
Codex ﬡ/01/Sinaiticus first hand text (ca. 600-699 CE);
Codex W/032/Washingtonianus (ca. 375-499 CE)
​

ΗΒΑCΙΛΕΙΑΤΩΝΟΥΡΑΝΩΝΒΙΑΖΕΤΑΙΚΑΙ
ΒΙΑZEΤΑΙΑΡΠΑΖΟΥCΙΝΑΥΤΗΝ
(η βασιλεια των ουρανων βιαζεται και
βιαζεται αρπαζουσιν αυτην)

Codex ﬡ/01/Sinaiticus corrected text (ca. 375-425 CE)
​

ΗΒΑCΙΛΕΙΑΤΩΝΟΥΡΑΝΩΝΒΙΑΖΕΤΑΙΚΑΙ
ΒΙΑCΤΑΙΑΡΠΑΖΟΥCΙΝΑΥΤΗΝ
(η βασιλεια των ουρανων βιαζεται και
βιασται αρπαζουσιν αυτην)

Codex ﬡ/01/Sinaiticus second corrected text (ca. 1100-1199 CE)
​

Some Bible versions read:

• “the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Vulgate, KJV1769, WNT1745)

• “the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and men of violence take it by force.” (ASV)

• “the kingdom of heaven is forcing its way in, and men of force take it.” (BBE)

• “God's kingdom has been going forward strongly. And people have been trying to take control of it by force.” (ERV)

• “the Kingdom of heaven has suffered violent attacks, and violent men try to seize it.” (GNB)

• “the kingdom of heaven is assailed by force, and the violent seize it. ” (Pe****o Syriac-English translation)

• “ the kingdom of the heavens, is being invaded and invaders are seizing upon it. ” (ERB)

|----------------------------------------------|
| “ERB” = Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible |
|----------------------------------------------|
​

• “the Kingdom of the Heavens has been suffering violent assault, and the violent have been seizing it by force.” (WNT)

• “the reign of the heavens doth suffer violence, and violent men do take it by force” (YLT)

The best translation of this verse is, of course, a reading that best reflects:

1. the thinking of the Church fathers, and
2. the wording seen in the better Greek language manuscripts.

The Greek texts (see above) all say something closer to: the realm of the heavens is seized and forcible men seize it.
_________________________
Source: my personal Facebook at http://tinyurl.com/mwy96u6

I encourage all Bible readers to carefully compare the wording in their preferred Bible version.

 

[e.r.m.]

yes, so obtaining the kingdom is a struggle as Jesus said:

Matthew 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.

And I also think Pauls words are quite relevant in this regard:

Philippians 3:12-14 Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pressing on to see if I may also lay hold on that for which Christ Jesus selected me. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.

The kingdom of God is something for which we must struggle to obtain. Its not given out to everyone freely...its something we must put up a fight for. What are we fighting? Our own imperfect desires and sinfulness. These things can keep us from God...so we must continually fight our sinful nature in order to obtain the prize of everlasting life under Gods kingdom.

Thank you. I do miss being on this forum and the members here, even those I disagree with. Thank you for your contribution. I agree with what what you said, but the jury is still out. I haven't fully examined it yet.

 

[Thief]

The kingdom of heaven is within you.....

So if the kingdom is held by men of violence....it is an internal struggle.
It is also passed from one man to another.

'God wants you to'.....
can be applied to any circumstance.

So then the harm in this world is dealt by those who say they are of the kingdom and God's will.

 

[e.r.m.]

The kingdom of heaven is within you.....

So if the kingdom is held by men of violence....it is an internal struggle.
It is also passed from one man to another.

'God wants you to'.....
can be applied to any circumstance.

So then the harm in this world is dealt by those who say they are of the kingdom and God's will.

Thank you, are you saying this is a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[Desert Snake]

why? Perhaps its neither.

The OP only gives two options, and the verse to me, looks more like a metaphor referring to deviation from Scriptural truth, rather than an actual description, hence a completely different interpretation on my part, anyways.

 

[e.r.m.]

The OP only gives two options, and the verse to me, looks more like a metaphor referring to deviation from Scriptural truth, rather than an actual description, hence a completely different interpretation on my part, anyways.

Thank you.

 

[Thief]

Thank you, are you saying this is a good thing or a bad thing?

Many people refrain of religion that it can be used to do harm.
It would be difficult to say it has never happened.

So much bloodshed .....and all in the name of God.....

It creates the appearance the kingdom is one of violence.

How can I say to you....peace first?......when angels are displayed with sword in hand.

But I say it none the less.....peace first.
The peace of heaven is guarded.
I believe that we enter, only because we belong there.

 

[firedragon]

It means pushing forward, pressing or enforcing. It could also mean violently though that would be in the context of a war. Not in the context the Kingdom of heaven which is the good news.

In this verse biazetai will typically mean pressing forward or advancing having the emphasis of hard. e.g. Pressing or advancing hard. Biastai (βιαστα&#8054 will mean those who are pushing it or aggressively pressing it as in it refers to the doer or the pusher. So the verse will mean

"the kingdom of heaven has been advancing hard, and those who are pressing it forward are seizing/capturing/taking it"

Well, hope that makes sense.

 

[e.r.m.]

It means pushing forward, pressing or enforcing. It could also mean violently though that would be in the context of a war. Not in the context the Kingdom of heaven which is the good news.

In this verse biazetai will typically mean pressing forward or advancing having the emphasis of hard. e.g. Pressing or advancing hard. Biastai (βιαστα&#8054 will mean those who are pushing it or aggressively pressing it as in it refers to the doer or the pusher. So the verse will mean

"the kingdom of heaven has been advancing hard, and those who are pressing it forward are seizing/capturing/taking it"

Well, hope that makes sense.

Thank you. I'll share my thoughts later. About to go into my job.

 

[e.r.m.]

It means pushing forward, pressing or enforcing. It could also mean violently though that would be in the context of a war. Not in the context the Kingdom of heaven which is the good news.

In this verse biazetai will typically mean pressing forward or advancing having the emphasis of hard. e.g. Pressing or advancing hard. Biastai (βιαστα&#8054 will mean those who are pushing it or aggressively pressing it as in it refers to the doer or the pusher. So the verse will mean

"the kingdom of heaven has been advancing hard, and those who are pressing it forward are seizing/capturing/taking it"

Well, hope that makes sense.

From what I read, according to the greek alone, it could go either way, as the doer or the receiver. Although I'm inclined to believe you, hadn't seen evidence to sway it one way or the other until last night.
"From the day of John the Baptist until now..."
In the "now" Jesus was speaking of, John was in prison, so "From the day of John the Baptist until now...", would likely refer to before John was in prison until now and likely back to the days when John had begun to preach.
Starting back in those days there was no violence or raids against John, or the kingdom of Heaven. Now there was the whole incident with Herod at Jesus's birth and toward the beginning of Jesus's ministry when the people tried to throw Jesus off a cliff Luke 4:29,
But Jesus said "From the day of John the Baptist until now...". There wasn't violence in the days of John the Baptist.
This leads me to to believe in the second translation

Matthew 11:12 "From the day of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay ahold of it."

There was no suffering violence back then but there were forceful men, beginning with John.

This also agrees with your post and most who have posted here.

Your thoughts please. Thank you.