Meat eating fascists attack vegan cafe

[ADigitalArtist]

Comparing the denture of intergenus animals will only get you so far. Bears have similar teeth arrangement yet span the gauntlet of herbivore omnivore and carnivore.
Gut shape and nutrient absorption are better indicators. We are true omnivores, however there is only a tiny handful of nutritionists and doctors who won't tell you the average human eats more meat than they should. You can be just as healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet as one which uses meat or animal product sparingly. There is no argument to be made that eating meat with the vast majority of your meals is the best option.

 

[Wu Wei]

Then your definition of "omnivore" is inadequate.

Bui it is not my definition, it is the accepted definition within the English language.

What would be the "natural," not "forced" diet for humans? Perhaps it would be something like what our closest living relatives eat?

Natural is based on evolution, it is the way our ancestors ate. It is how we get nutrients into our system. Now you want to discuss the possibility of humans being able to live as only vegetarians or vegans, that is different and I think it would be a rather interesting discussion. But the definition of omnivore is simply "an animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin." it is really not up for debate. Do cats naturally eat " food of both plant and animal origin"? no. Do primates " food of both plant and animal origin"? Yes. Do Humans " food of both plant and animal origin" yes. That makes primates and the human branch of primates omnivores. If you are upset by that I am sorry, but that is how it is.

All I asked for is evidence by which to substantiate your claims.

No, you didn't. You asked for evidence to substantiate a claim you accused me of making, that I did not make.

I assume you cannot provide any evidence by which to conclude that consumption of animal fat "is responsible for the development of [our] CNS," or by which to conclude that consumption of animal fat is "the reason we ended up with bigger brains."

I made no such claim, I said

Also, simply from a physiological view, it is fat, much of that from non-plant protein, that is responsible for the development of out CNS (Central Nervous System) and like the reason we ended up with bigger brains. .

see the difference.

 

[columbus]

No, but I've seen deer eat rabbits.

I saw Elvis in the rust on a refrigerator once.
Sort of.
Tom

 

[Lyndon]

Primate teeth are basically identical to ours except they have bigger canines, and they are classified as herbivores, I believe, when has a chimp been called an omnivore.

 

[Lyndon]

Here's the skinny on herbivores; Apes are considered herbivores, chimps are considered omnivores because they eat ants, and occasionally SOME chimps will kill and eat a monkey, yet only 2% of their estimated diet is meat and insects, that means they are 98% vegetarian according to this site, so I was off by 1%;

http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat

 

[Wu Wei]

Primate teeth are basically identical to ours except they have bigger canines, and they are classified as herbivores, I believe, when has a chimp been called an omnivore.

chimp been called an omnivore for a very long time, they are also on occasion cannibalistic

Chimpanzee

Fruit is the most important component of a chimpanzee's diet; however, they will also eat vegetation, bark, honey, insects and even other chimps or monkeys.

From Enchanted learning

Chimpanzees are omnivores (eating plants and meat). They forage for food in the forests during the day, eating leaves, fruit, seeds, tree bark, plant bulbs, tender plant shoots, and flowers. They also eat termites, ants, and small animals (they have even been known to eat young monkeys).

Examples of Omnivores

Primates Are Omnivores

• Aye-aye
• Dwarf lemurs
• Mouse lemurs
• Ring-tailed lemur
• Sportive lemurs
• Woolly lemurs
• Galagos
• Tarsiers
• Monkeys: capuchins, howler monkey, marmosets, night or owl monkeys, sakis, spider monkeys, squirrel monkeys, tamarins, titis, uakaris, woolly monkeys, woolly spider monkeys
• Gibbons or lesser apes
• Great apes: bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, humans, orangutans

 

[Wu Wei]

Here's the skinny on herbivores; Apes are considered herbivores, chimps are considered omnivores because they eat ants, and occasionally SOME chimps will kill and eat a monkey, yet only 2% of their estimated diet is meat and insects, that means they are 98% vegetarian according to this site, so I was off by 1%;

http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat

You may want to reread that article. There is no where in there that says they are herbivores. It does say until Dr. Goodall studied them it was thought they were, but it was a miss conception based on Dr. Goodall's findings

The world’s foremost authority on chimpanzees is Dr. Jane Goodall who, beginning in 1960, studied them for decades in their natural habitat. Very early in her work with chimps, Dr. Goodall discovered a startling new answer to the question “what do chimps eat?” when she observed them using thin sticks to fish termites out of a termite mound. Until that time, chimpanzees had been considered to be strict herbivores just like the other great apes.

Dr. Goodall received another startling answer to the question of what chimps eat when she observed groups of male chimpanzees conducting seemingly organized hunts of red colobus monkeys. After they had captured their prey, the chimps ate every part of the monkey, including the brain. They sometimes also shared some of the meat with female chimps who had not participated in the hunt.

Despite their hunting behavior, however, only a very tiny percentage–perhaps as small as two percent–of a wild chimp’s diet consists of meat or insects.

They eat meat and gain nutrition from it, sorry, but that makes them omnivores

A herbivore is an animal that feeds on grass and other plants. Meat does not naturally take up any part of a herbivores diet, they eat 0%.... they do not eat 2%.

 

[Lyndon]

You don't read very well, the first sentence said that apes are herbivores and chimps are considered omnivores because they eat ants, and further down states only 2% of their diet is meat and insects. Even vegans eat the occasional insect if it falls in their soup and they don't see it, does that make them omnivores. If your so convinced your an omnivore I invite you to attempt to eat a rabbit whole without cooking it, skinning it or using and knives. Humans are by nature herbivores that have become omnivores ONLY because of their ability to use tools and cook their food. You can feed hamburger to almost any herbivore and they'll probably eat it, thats why we have mad cow disease, farmers were feeding meat waste products including brain tissue to vegetarian cows. does that make them omnivores, NO.

 

[Nous]

Do you just not read or do you purposely ignore what I say? I never said the diet was "confused".

I have read and haven't ignored anything you've said in response to my posts (which hasn't been responsive to the questions I've asked you), and I also didn't even vaguely suggest that you claimed that "the diet [of deer] is confused."

In response to your claim that "nigh-every herbivore will eat an animal smaller than it is if it has the chance," I asked you these questions, to which you haven't responded:

So why do you think that scientists are so confused about the diet of deer? National Geographic lists the diet of the white-tailed deer as herbivore: http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/white-tailed-deer/

I’ve known farmers who kept their horses, goats and sheep all in the same pen or enclosed pasture. How is that possible if horses are omnivores that kill and eat smaller animals every chance they get? Zoos often keep gazelle and zebras and various other animals classified as herbivores all in the same enclosure. Why aren't the smaller animals disappearing if the larger herbivores are killing and eating the smaller ones at every opportunity?​

Why don't you try answering these questions?

I said nothing is 100%. Sanguivores may be excluded

So now you've shown that your claim "nothing in nature is 100%" is false. Perhaps you can soon recognize that your claim that "nigh-every herbivore will eat an animal smaller than it is if it has the chance" is likewise false.

 

[Nous]

We are true omnivores

Name all of the other "true omnivore" mammals whose diet consists of a significant percentage (greater than 10%) of flesh from other mammals, but who need to cook the mammal flesh they eat in order to kill the deadly bacteria.

 

[Nous]

Bui it is not my definition, it is the accepted definition within the English language.



Natural is based on evolution, it is the way our ancestors ate.

So our hominid ancestors who began eating other mammals as a significant portion of their diet were not eating a "natural" diet?

But the definition of omnivore is simply "an animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin." it is really not up for debate.

Again, that definition means that all the house cats who have eaten Meow Mix are omnivores. And that definition means that human vegans are not omnivores.

I made no such claim, I said

Then just cite the evidence by which to conclude that this claim is true:

Also, simply from a physiological view, it is fat, much of that from non-plant protein, that is responsible for the development of out CNS (Central Nervous System) and like the reason we ended up with bigger brains.​

Exactly what are you saying about "fat . . . from non-plant protein" and the human CNS? (BTW: fat is not "from protein".)

 

[Wu Wei]

You don't read very well, the first sentence said that apes are herbivores and chimps are considered omnivores because they eat ants, and further down states only 2% of their diet is meat and insects. Even vegans eat the occasional insect if it falls in their soup and they don't see it, does that make them omnivores. If your so convinced your an omnivore I invite you to attempt to eat a rabbit whole without cooking it, skinning it or using and knives. Humans are by nature herbivores that have become omnivores ONLY because of their ability to use tools and cook their food. You can feed hamburger to almost any herbivore and they'll probably eat it, thats why we have mad cow disease, farmers were feeding meat waste products including brain tissue to vegetarian cows. does that make them omnivores, NO.

Can we stop this silliness, and for crying out loud stop reading things into it that you want it to say that are not there. And the insults are absolutely uncalled for.

Unlike other apes such as gorillas and orangutans which are almost entirely herbivorous (plant-eating), chimps are classified as omnivores. This means that, like humans, they eat a variety of plant and animal foods.

It never says apes are herbivorous. it says almost entirely herbivorous, big difference between being a herbivore and "almost" being a herbivore.

Trying to make your case based on the accidental ingestion of an insect by a vegan is also shaky. A vegan did not choose to eat the bug. Chimpanzees developed hunting skills to capture and eat them,. Again big difference between accidental and intentional. And for the record a human vegan is an omnivore who chose to be a vegan, and I am ok with that, but that does not change their dietary classification based on species.

And eating a raw rabbit is not a proof of omnivore either, that is you grasping it straws attempting to prove your completely ludicrous point. .Although humans have can and at times still do eat raw meat and live bugs. Go through military survival training and you will see it. Also there is always sushi. And in Korea they eat live baby octopus, squid and some type of worm dish and the fact that I or anyone else does not or will not eat that does not make them a herbivore nor does it prove they are not an omnivore. How many times must I say this. if you can gain nutrients from both meat and vegetables for purposes of survival you are an omnivore. Feed a cat on strict vegetable diet and it will die, feed a cow nothing but chicken and it too will die. Omnivores, like humans and primates and bears and many other mammals can survive on either. This is not saying that they should only eat one r the other, but they can survive on both.

And cooking has absolutely nothing to do with the classification of omnivore. Bears can't cook nor can any other animal that is an omnivore. Only humans and we don't have to either in many cases, For you to keep pushin that one is simply wrong and are preaching a falsehood.

You can feed meat to any herbivores and they "might" eat it. But they will not survive, why, because they are herbivores. But feed meat to an omnivore they will survive.

And like all of your arguments to date, your Bovine spongiform encephalopathy point shows a large lack of understanding....here read this,

The infectious agent in BSE is believed to be a specific type of misfolded protein called a prion. Other theories state that the agent is a virus, virino, Spiroplasma species, or Acinetobacter species. Prions are not destroyed even if the beef or material containing them is cooked or heat-treated. Prion proteins carry the disease between individuals and cause deterioration of the brain. BSE is a type of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE). TSEs can arise in animals that carry an allele which causes previously normal protein molecules to contort by themselves from an alpha helical arrangement to a beta pleated sheet, which is the disease-causing shape for the particular protein. Transmission can occur when healthy animals come in contact with tainted tissues from others with the disease. In the brain, these proteins cause native cellular prion protein to deform into the infectious state, which then goes on to deform further prion protein in an exponential cascade. This results in protein aggregates, which then form dense plaque fibers leading to the microscopic appearance of "holes" in the brain, degeneration of physical and mental abilities, and ultimately death.

Different hypotheses exist for the origin of prion proteins in cattle. Two leading hypotheses suggest it may have jumped species from the disease scrapie in sheep, or that it evolved from a spontaneous form of "mad cow disease" that has been seen occasionally in cattle for many centuries.[19] In the fifth century BCE, Hippocrates described a similar illness in cattle and sheep, which he believed also occurred in man. Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus recorded cases of a disease with similar characteristics in the fourth and fifth centuries CE. The British Government enquiry took the view the cause was not scrapie, as had originally been postulated, but was some event in the 1970s that was not possible to identify

Research in 2008 suggested that mad cow disease also is caused by a genetic mutation within the prion protein gene. The research showed, for the first time, that a 10-year-old cow from Alabama with an atypical form of bovine spongiform encephalopathy had the same type of prion protein gene mutation as found in human patients with the genetic form of Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (genetic CJD). This form of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease is called variant CJD.

Stop making stuff up, stop telling me I said things I did not say, stop with the insults, stop with the transference, try reading what was posted and what "you" linked without prejudice.

 

[columbus]

Name all of the other "true omnivore" mammals whose diet consists of a significant percentage (greater than 10%) of flesh from other mammals, but who need to cook the mammal flesh they eat in order to kill the deadly bacteria.

They don't cook it.
They just contract infectious diseases and parasites and die.
Tom

 

[Lyndon]

Can we stop this silliness, and for crying out loud stop reading things into it that you want it to say that are not there. And the insults are absolutely uncalled for, but they are your MO when your losing an argument..... history has shown me that when in a corner, you go for condescension and insults.

Reread the article you supplied and read it without your pre-jaded glasses on. And stop trying to make up a definition that does niot exist and stop telling me I said things I did not say to try and support your shaky position based on nothing but emotion, outrage and indignation.



It never says apes are herbivorous. it says almost entirely herbivorous, big difference between being a herbivore and "almost" being a herbivore.

Trying to make your case based on the accidental ingestion of an insect by a vegan is also shaky. A vegan did not choose to eat the bug. Chimpanzees developed hunting skills to capture and eat them,. Again big difference between accidental and intentional. And for the record a human vegan is an omnivore who chose to be a vegan, and I am ok with that, but that does not change their dietary classification based on species.

And eating a raw rabbit is not a proof of omnivore either, that is you grasping it straws attempting to prove your completely ludicrous point. .Although humans have can and at times still do eat raw meat and live bugs. Go through military survival training and you will see it. Also there is always sushi. And in Korea they eat live baby octopus, squid and some type of worm dish and the fact that I or anyone else does not or will not eat that does not make them a herbivore nor does it prove they are not an omnivore. How many times must I say this. if you can gain nutrients from both meat and vegetables for purposes of survival you are an omnivore. Feed a cat on strict vegetable diet and it will die, feed a cow nothing but chicken and it too will die. Omnivores, like humans and primates and bears and many other mammals can survive on either. This is not saying that they should only eat one r the other, but they can survive on both.

And cooking has absolutely nothing to do with the classification of omnivore. Bears can't cook nor can any other animal that is an omnivore. Only humans and we don't have to either in many cases, For you to keep pushin that one is simply wrong and are preaching a falsehood.

You can feed meat to any herbivores and they "might" eat it. But they will not survive, why, because they are herbivores. But feed meat to an omnivore they will survive.

And like all of your arguments to date, your Bovine spongiform encephalopathy point shows a large lack of understanding....here read this,



Stop making stuff up, stop telling me I said things I did not say, stop with the insults, stop with the transference, try reading what was posted and what "you" linked without prejudice.

When you run out of arguments, the personal attacks start running, I suggest you go back and read the forum rules before you post anymore.

 

[Wu Wei]

So our hominid ancestors who began eating other mammals as a significant portion of their diet were not eating a "natural" diet?

Again, that definition means that all the house cats who have eaten Meow Mix are omnivores. And that definition means that human vegans are not omnivores.

Then just cite the evidence by which to conclude that this claim is true:

Also, simply from a physiological view, it is fat, much of that from non-plant protein, that is responsible for the development of out CNS (Central Nervous System) and like the reason we ended up with bigger brains.​

Exactly what are you saying about "fat . . . from non-plant protein" and the human CNS? (BTW: fat is not "from protein".)

I'm sensing You know nothing of anthropology or evolution... and now you are asking me to cite what I said instead of what you originally claimed I said, but ha not actually said at all.. No, sorry. you want to know educate yourself, take an anatomy and physiology course, study nutrition.... You are picking and choosing what I said and ignoring what I posted to make yourself look good and you are ignoring the posts that came after that where I told you I never said what you were claiming I had stated and further explained the point.......start by actually reading #82 might be a good place for you to start.

 

[Lyndon]

Can we stop this silliness, and for crying out loud stop reading things into it that you want it to say that are not there. And the insults are absolutely uncalled for, but they are your MO when your losing an argument..... history has shown me that when in a corner, you go for condescension and insults.

Reread the article you supplied and read it without your pre-jaded glasses on. And stop trying to make up a definition that does niot exist and stop telling me I said things I did not say to try and support your shaky position based on nothing but emotion, outrage and indignation.



It never says apes are herbivorous. it says almost entirely herbivorous, big difference between being a herbivore and "almost" being a herbivore.

Trying to make your case based on the accidental ingestion of an insect by a vegan is also shaky. A vegan did not choose to eat the bug. Chimpanzees developed hunting skills to capture and eat them,. Again big difference between accidental and intentional. And for the record a human vegan is an omnivore who chose to be a vegan, and I am ok with that, but that does not change their dietary classification based on species.

And eating a raw rabbit is not a proof of omnivore either, that is you grasping it straws attempting to prove your completely ludicrous point. .Although humans have can and at times still do eat raw meat and live bugs. Go through military survival training and you will see it. Also there is always sushi. And in Korea they eat live baby octopus, squid and some type of worm dish and the fact that I or anyone else does not or will not eat that does not make them a herbivore nor does it prove they are not an omnivore. How many times must I say this. if you can gain nutrients from both meat and vegetables for purposes of survival you are an omnivore. Feed a cat on strict vegetable diet and it will die, feed a cow nothing but chicken and it too will die. Omnivores, like humans and primates and bears and many other mammals can survive on either. This is not saying that they should only eat one r the other, but they can survive on both.

And cooking has absolutely nothing to do with the classification of omnivore. Bears can't cook nor can any other animal that is an omnivore. Only humans and we don't have to either in many cases, For you to keep pushin that one is simply wrong and are preaching a falsehood.

You can feed meat to any herbivores and they "might" eat it. But they will not survive, why, because they are herbivores. But feed meat to an omnivore they will survive.

And like all of your arguments to date, your Bovine spongiform encephalopathy point shows a large lack of understanding....here read this,



Stop making stuff up, stop telling me I said things I did not say, stop with the insults, stop with the transference, try reading what was posted and what "you" linked without prejudice.

When you run out of arguments, the personal attacks start running, I suggest you go back and read the forum rules before you post anymore.

 

[Wu Wei]

When you run out of arguments, the personal attacks start running, I suggest you go back and read the forum rules before you post anymore.

So please show me exactly where I was personally attacking you. Like I said, stop with the transference, you do realize that you have on multiple occasions accused me of the very thing you are doing. And you may want to reacquaint yourself with forum rules while your at it..

And running out of arguments against what? your speculations, made up statistic, baseless theories and misunderstandings of what was posted, even the things you yourself posted

Now let me leave you with an exerpt from a book I rather like

From the book - Zen in the Martial Arts by Joe Hyams

Chapter Title “Do Not Disturb”

This is from a conversation between Joe Hyams, Sterling Silliphant and Bruce Lee

On one such occasion we talked about the difference between wasting time and spending time. Bruce was the first to speak.

“To spend time is to pass it in a specific manner” he said. “We are spending it during lessons just as we are spending it now in conversation. To waste time is to expend it thoughtlessly or carelessly. We all have time to either spend or waste and it is our decision what to do with it. But once passed, it is gone forever.

“It is the most precious commodity we have, “agreed Sterling. “I always view my time as divided into infinite moments or transactions or contacts. Anyone who steals my time is stealing my life because they are taking my existence from me. As I get older, I realize that time is the only thing I have left. So when someone comes to me with a project, I estimate the time it will take me to do it and then ask myself, ‘Do I want to spend weeks or months of what little time I have on this project? Is it worth it or is it wasting my time?’ If I consider the project time-worthy I do it.

“I apply this same yardstick to my social relations. I will not permit people to steal my time. I have limited my friends to those people with whom time passes happily. There are moments in my life - necessary moments - when I don’t do anything but what is my choice. The choice of how I spend my time is mine, and it is not dictated by social convention”

After Sterling finished talking, Bruce looked into space for a few moments. When he finally spoke, it was to ask if he could make a telephone call.

When he came back, Bruce was smiling. “I just cancelled an appointment.” he said. “It was with someone who wanted to waste my time and not help me spend it”

You simply want to waste my time...and I shall no longer allow it

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Name all of the other "true omnivore" mammals whose diet consists of a significant percentage (greater than 10%) of flesh from other mammals, but who need to cook the mammal flesh they eat in order to kill the deadly bacteria.

We don't need to cook it and, in fact, most traditional Arctic and some Asiatic cultures do not. We would just have a higher rate of illness and intestinal disease until those less resistant died, much like animals do today.

Add to that factory farming encourages more pernicious bacteria and parasites that raw wild game wouldn't. Also that most mammals do in fact carry intestinal parasites which can and do kill them at times. So it's not like obligate carnivores are somehow immune.

Finally, many vegetables and fungus also need to be cooked to produce best nutrient gain and eliminate the most toxins and common bacteria. Our ancestors lived off grass roots, bulbs, insects and fish more than any staple vegetable.

 

[Walter Russell]

Primates hardly ever eat meat, for ages anthropologist thought they were complete vegetarians because THEY HAD NEVER SEEN THEM EAT MEAT. Now they think once in while they do, but they are primarily vegetarian and their teeth are not more herbivorous than ours, so go figure. Humans were not omnivores until they invented fire and learned how to cook meat.

How do you know humans didn't eat raw meat before they learned to create fire?

Besides even after fire was discovered by humans they ate raw meat. Many tribal cultures ate the raw heart of the animal they killed to gain the power of the animals spirit.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

How do you know humans didn't eat raw meat before they learned to create fire?

Besides even after fire was discovered by humans they ate raw meat. Many tribal cultures ate the raw heart of the animal they killed to gain the power of the animals spirit.

Or just because it was expedient or fire materials were too valuable to waste for meals.
Here is a picture or a Siberian native family eating. (Warning: blood, obviously) http://arhivach.org/storage/2/3b/23b65a75129a2cdc5b27a37f41768796.png
This may seem crude to us, but it's the way life has been for countless generations for them.