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Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID), or Euthanasia

Over the past 8 years, has your attitude to MAID (with responsible rules) changed, and if so, how?

  • I was against, now I'm for.

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • I was for, and now I'm against.

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • I was for, and still am.

    Votes: 30 76.9%
  • I was against, and still am.

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • Other (if you choose this, please explain)

    Votes: 4 10.3%

  • Total voters
    39

F1fan

Veteran Member
I remember this issue being raised in a film I saw back in 1981 with Richard Dreyfuss. It was quite good and the character won the right to end his life. I found this quite a rational right for an individual to have and am shocked it doesn't exist as a norm in the USA.

 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So we have to look at medical life-extension. It seems that in many cases we are prolonging death rather than prolonging life. That is cruel.
My stepmom is currently in hospice and has been declining for about a month. I went through that with my mom several years ago, and as the primary caregiver I was sad that she had to suffer and just waste away. It's unethical to let animals suffer, but for humans, we stand by and watch what I consider cruelty.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
My stepmom is currently in hospice and has been declining for about a month. I went through that with my mom several years ago, and as the primary caregiver I was sad that she had to suffer and just waste away. It's unethical to let animals suffer, but for humans, we stand by and watch what I consider cruelty.

Sorry your family had to suffer this.
 

Jagella

Member
When people don't follow the rules around life and death, that's called murder. Always has been, and there are laws in place to deal with that.
Recently it was reported in the news that a Heather Pressdee, a nurse practicing in Pennsylvania, was charged with murder for euthanizing 17 people under her care. A plea agreement was all that saved her from being charged with murder. You can read about it in 'Evil Personified': Nurse Gets Life Sentence for Murdering Patients With Insulin. So my point is that if we legalize euthanasia or seek to legalize it, then it sends the message that murdering some people is good!
 

Jagella

Member
For before, for now, for forever for all the reasons already given. Death is natural and unavoidable. Sometimes postponable but always there are tradeoffs. Someone must decide when the tradeoffs are no longer acceptable. Who better to do that than the person who must suffer them?
Personally, I think one solution to this dilemma is to grant palliative care to people who choose to forego medical treatment that keeps them alive. The patient can choose to be taken off the treatment and allowed to die as comfortably as possible.
Like the OP I've had the responsibility to decide when to say when for my pet dogs. The first few, the vets literally balled me out for making them suffer so long before letting them go.
No vet should do that. It is your beloved pet, and you should make the decision if and when to have the animal killed to free it from its misery. I don't think you should be faulted for if and when you make that difficult decision.
Now I pride myself on sticking the landing. I want to let them go when there is no medical path back to health and they take no interest in anything. For a dog no interest in sniffing the ground or eating is a good indication they are through.
Let's keep in mind that animals are not people, and so we treat them differently. You can sell a dog, for example, but you cannot morally sell a person.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
Personally, I think one solution to this dilemma is to grant palliative care to people who choose to forego medical treatment that keeps them alive. The patient can choose to be taken off the treatment and allowed to die as comfortably as possible.

No vet should do that. It is your beloved pet, and you should make the decision if and when to have the animal killed to free it from its misery. I don't think you should be faulted for if and when you make that difficult decision.

Let's keep in mind that animals are not people, and so we treat them differently. You can sell a dog, for example, but you cannot morally sell a person.

I don't think anyone fails to note the difference between a pet and a person. But they and we are mortal and the end will come. Having some say on how much we will endure before tapping out is no one's business but our own. Unlike our pets we are able to be cognizant of our prospects and our limits. They depend on our judgement. We shouldn't have to contend with a nanny state or busy body institution to carry out our free will.
 

Jagella

Member
I don't think anyone fails to note the difference between a pet and a person.
I would hope so, but a lot of people compare people to animals to make a case for euthanasia.
But they and we are mortal and the end will come.
That's very true, and since this is the one life we have, it's important to value it.
Having some say on how much we will endure before tapping out is no one's business but our own.
I can't completely agree with you here because nobody's life is an island. What we do with our lives most often has a big impact on others. So when people commit suicide, it usually leaves a lot of pain in its wake that's experienced by friends and family. After all, they may have invested much in the life of the person who committed suicide, and all that effort will have been trashed.
Unlike our pets we are able to be cognizant of our prospects and our limits.
Yes, and I think that people are unique in their great ability to adapt to adversity.
They depend on our judgement. We shouldn't have to contend with a nanny state or busy body institution to carry out our free will.
I don't believe we have free will. That's why we need others to guide and limit what we do. Bounds need to be set on our freedoms so we do not violate the freedoms of others.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
Sorry I'm having trouble using the software to quote your post. This may have to be klunky.

The gist of our disagreement seems to be centered here:
I can't completely agree with you here because nobody's life is an island. What we do with our lives most often has a big impact on others. So when people commit suicide, it usually leaves a lot of pain in its wake that's experienced by friends and family. After all, they may have invested much in the life of the person who committed suicide, and all that effort will have been trashed.

I do agree with you that we are none of us an island and we have duties to one another. Though I'm no theist I do think we are all part of something greater. I just don't think any of that should require enduring torture when death is near and you're in pain. If you are writhing in pain and your prognosis was day to day, I wouldn't argue with you that your duty to me superseded your urgent need to get free of pain. Surely you wouldn't press for that either if it was someone you cared about.. I mean, you don't talk them into opting out to alleviate the pain you feel through empathy. But if it is their urgent need and desire to escape the pain, how can we not give them our support?

I don't believe we have free will. That's why we need others to guide and limit what we do. Bounds need to be set on our freedoms so we do not violate the freedoms of others.

Well that's a whole other can of worms, free will. I think there is something we mean by that which is captured by the legal definition - essentially, free from coercion. But of course we are not free to choose what we like or who we are, only what we believe and will do.

I'm a lot less inclined to look to external controls.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Then there are families left destitute due to medical bankruptcies to care for dying family members. Degenerative disease, cancer und so weiter.
 
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McBell

Unbound
Recently it was reported in the news that a Heather Pressdee, a nurse practicing in Pennsylvania, was charged with murder for euthanizing 17 people under her care. A plea agreement was all that saved her from being charged with murder. You can read about it in 'Evil Personified': Nurse Gets Life Sentence for Murdering Patients With Insulin. So my point is that if we legalize euthanasia or seek to legalize it, then it sends the message that murdering some people is good!
You are not making any sense.

Do you think your presented example supports your claim?
 

McBell

Unbound
Let's keep in mind that animals are not people, and so we treat them differently. You can sell a dog, for example, but you cannot morally sell a person.
Sad that you are more humane toward animals than you are towards people.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
My stepmom is currently in hospice and has been declining for about a month. I went through that with my mom several years ago, and as the primary caregiver I was sad that she had to suffer and just waste away. It's unethical to let animals suffer, but for humans, we stand by and watch what I consider cruelty.
Sooty to hear what you all are going through.
 

Jagella

Member
I do agree with you that we are none of us an island and we have duties to one another. Though I'm no theist I do think we are all part of something greater.
That "something greater" is known as a society which we should strive to keep orderly and safe. That means to respect and preserve life if we reasonably can.
I just don't think any of that should require enduring torture when death is near and you're in pain. If you are writhing in pain and your prognosis was day to day, I wouldn't argue with you that your duty to me superseded your urgent need to get free of pain.
To solve the problem of pain I think it makes more sense to manage pain rather than kill the person in pain. Unfortunately, our healthcare system in America is not doing a good job of delivering the care people need and that is available. Fixing that system is where we should be concentrating our efforts.
Surely you wouldn't press for that either if it was someone you cared about..
I would press for better care. In fact, that's what I did when my Dad was in the nursing home.
I mean, you don't talk them into opting out to alleviate the pain you feel through empathy. But if it is their urgent need and desire to escape the pain, how can we not give them our support?
We should give the dying our support if they want it. Years ago an elderly neighbor and friend of mine was dying from cancer. I made a point of visiting her and keeping her company. We talked and assembled a jigsaw puzzle. It really seemed to help her feel better and endure her pain. Shortly after she died peacefully.

Did you ever help a dying person that way?
Well that's a whole other can of worms, free will.
You brought up the subject of free will. In regard to dying, in most cases we have little choice over how and when we die. That's why I find these "choice" arguments for dying to be weak and unrealistic. As a society we generally do not allow suicide and I think for good reasons. Do you want to give teenagers in angst the choice to commit suicide?
 

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
That "something greater" is known as a society which we should strive to keep orderly and safe. That means to respect and preserve life if we reasonably can.
Your snide remarks do not alter the fact that a God is real.

Euthanasia? Not even that sways my logical stance.
 

McBell

Unbound

That's that then. Life goes on.

I'll just let the link speak for itself.
For those interested in a more in depth discussion of the above linked story:

 

Whateverist

Active Member
one solution to this dilemma is to grant palliative care to people who choose to forego medical treatment that keeps them alive. The patient can choose to be taken off the treatment and allowed to die as comfortably as possible.

I support you in making that choice for yourself when the time comes but I don’t look to the wider society to make that decision in the abstract far removed from that actual near death state. Why does it matter to you so much to have society moving along like clock work, even to the point of making decisions for everyone on grounds decided upon irrespective of what people near death and in pain think and would choose?
 

Jagella

Member
I support you in making that choice for yourself when the time comes but I don’t look to the wider society to make that decision in the abstract far removed from that actual near death state. Why does it matter to you so much to have society moving along like clock work, even to the point of making decisions for everyone on grounds decided upon irrespective of what people near death and in pain think and would choose?
I don't know what people near death and in pain choose. I've known people in pain and near death, and none of them chose to be put to death. So who is making the choice to have them die? They or you?
 

Whateverist

Active Member
I don't know what people near death and in pain choose. I've known people in pain and near death, and none of them chose to be put to death. So who is making the choice to have them die? They or you?

Why do we need to make a choice preemptively for everyone and who should make such policies. You asked if I’ve ever taken care of people in pain and near death. I’m not going to claim any authority based on my answer to that but neither do I grant any to anyone else based on their experience, yourself included.
 

McBell

Unbound
I don't know what people near death and in pain choose.
Is this why you have taken it upon yourself to choose for them?

I've known people in pain and near death, and none of them chose to be put to death.
Good for you.
I sincerely mean that.

I have known people who chose death.
It is heartbreaking.

It is also one of the main reasons I support euthanasia.

So who is making the choice to have them die? They or you?
They are making the choose to die.

It seems to me you really need to study up on euthanasia laws.
 
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