Meditative State

[zenzero]

Friends,
Some of us here may have similar experience like friend Stephenw had one such experience while he was Surfing for over three hours in the rough sea but did not know if it was the meditative state.
Here am just pasting what Friend Seyorni had written on a post in Hinduism: Found his description very fitting in language [atleast better than mine]to share with others.

One experiences past, present and future simultaneously, as a seamless Gestalt. That is, one exists in and experiences all places and times completely and simultaneously. Likewise, one experiences all the lives of every living thing that exists, existed, or ever will exist, in their entirety, (no creeping along, frame by frame), simultaneously.

Maybe other friends like YmirGF etc. could add more to that and those who have had such experiences can share with other friends here.
Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It is possible to describe some aspects of the experience of the meditative state, but that which describes it, according to my understanding is not that which was present at the time of the experience.

For that reason it is said,..he who says does not know, and the one that knows does not say.

If I have the least bit of wisdom,
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.

I Ching, 53.

 

[zenzero]

friend ben d,
You are absolutely right.
The Real experience is known by none as no one was there to witness it.
The experiencer and the experience becomes ONE.
Just by discussing the circumstances of such a state which may also happen unconciously due to past karma; one would be able to understand what happened and what could be done etc.
Love & rgds

 

[Willamena]

Dogen says that our first glimpse of such experience is no different from any fuller glimpse of such experience; they are similarly glimpsiness.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Willamena,
Dogen is surely right.
Its always more of the same.
You have seen the HALO around paintings / sketches of enlightened people; they are concentric circles showing expansion of the same light.
Love & rgds

 

[YmirGF]

The Real experience is known by none as no one was there to witness it. The experiencer and the experience becomes ONE.

While in some respects this is true, the reality is that once Oneness dawns within the "individual" they understand that there is no separation and that there is only Oneness. In this regard, One can indeed, tell what their experience IS... not was... but IS. This is an important difference. Hence Seyorni's wonderful description:

One experiences past, present and future simultaneously, as a seamless Gestalt. That is, one exists in and experiences all places and times completely and simultaneously. Likewise, one experiences all the lives of every living thing that exists, existed, or ever will exist, in their entirety, (no creeping along, frame by frame), simultaneously.

...To me, this Is perfectly valid, imho, as this describes my own perceptions -- very well. In fact, I have written the same thing in numerous ways, many times before. So, it would appear that one CAN describe this type of experience in very meaningful terms. The problem resides in the minds of the folks who have not had the experience either fleetingly or somewhat continuously because they cannot translate the verbal symbols into ideas, as there is nothing in their experience to compare it to.

Just by discussing the circumstances of such a state which may also happen unconsciously due to past karma; one would be able to understand what happened and what could be done etc.

One of the things I remember from the original experiences I went through was a feeling of latent familiarity with the experiences. Instantly, I was quite aware of the "fact" that this was not the “first time” I had become "self-realized". I also remember telling myself that it wasn't a big deal, lol. It was just a small step on a very long journey to which there would never be an end.

Though I do not believe in "past" karma, due to the principles outlined in Seyorni's description, I do feel now that the personality I have become is what triggered the unexpected experiences of my youth, because "time" as we understand it, simply does not exist. Think of it as a ripple effect travelling from its epicenter through time, in all directions, past, present and future.

Dogen says that our first glimpse of such experience is no different from any fuller glimpse of such experience; they are similarly glimpsiness.

There is some "truth" in this statement in that so-called "deeper" states include all preceding states. From the individual viewpoint those states are radically different, but to describe them to one who has not recognized them in this life is somewhat futile. Therefore, people cannot really relate to "deeper" states of consciousness, it is better to tell them about a pretty warm light that helps to put their understanding into a new perspective. If folks can appreciate that much, in theory, they will, in time, figure out the "deeper" crap as they are ready.

In my own experience, enlightenment isn't the "end", it only serves to mark a new beginning. It is from that vantage point that one understands that the point of power is always in the present – right here, right now and never anywhere else.

Oh well, just my two cents. It’s not like I am an expert or anything. J



:run:

 

[zenzero]

Friend YmirGF,
Thank you for your response.
Rgds * PAST KARMA*; even if one believes it or not, it IS there.
Yes, surely when one lives in the PRESENt the effects of that past karma can be NULLIFIED and also future karma completed by the present ones.
Rgds ENLIGHTENMENT being just the Begining is what have mentioned before. It is actually the SECOND BIRTH or the real birth. One is born for the first time and he starts to live till such ti,me the individual is part of the evolutionary process an unconcious Being who is being carried by existence. Sanatana Dharama does talk about the Second Birth. Zen calls it Satori. It is the begining only from where one starts travelling into all the unconcious layers and finally reach NIRVANA when all the unconcious layers are in the concious zone.
Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Dogen says that our first glimpse of such experience is no different from any fuller glimpse of such experience; they are similarly glimpsiness.

So true, ego me likes the 'glimsiness', that's why enlightenment remains a concept.
To mistake the temporal glimpses, experiences of enlightenment as enlightenment, is a vanity that each disciple must realize to attain to that to which the experience 'hints' at.

So long as there is a mere vestige of duality, ie. oneness and an experiencer of the oneness, enlightenment is impossible.

Perhaps dying at any level is as easy or as hard as being born?

 

[zenzero]

friend ben d,
Like to start another thread as to what is enlightenment as we/ everyone needs to merge in understanding on the topic.
Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

friend ben d,
Like to start another thread as to what is enlightenment as we/ everyone needs to merge in understanding on the topic.
Love & rgds

Sure zenzero, 'what is enlightenment?' sounds a fine title, by all means.
Not too sure that there will be much merging though as each is only able to 'see' according to the present state of 'awareness'.

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben d,

each is only able to 'see' according to the present state of 'awareness'.

*ABle to see* here the *SEER* is still around. When the *SEER* & the *SEEN* merges becomes One that point is Enlightenment. Then it is pure conciousness which is different from his or her awareness.
Pure conciousness is nameless, faceless, formless, perceptionless or thoughtless.
Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Friend ben d,

*ABle to see* here the *SEER* is still around. When the *SEER* & the *SEEN* merges becomes One that point is Enlightenment. Then it is pure conciousness which is different from his or her awareness.
Pure conciousness is nameless, faceless, formless, perceptionless or thoughtless.
Love & rgds

Agree with this fully.

The point I was responding to was your use of "everyone needs to merge in understanding on the topic". Whilst it is true that everyone needs to transcend the dualistic mindset for a merging of 'seer' and 'seen', the intuitive faculty needs to be developed first to make it possible, and there are time constraints associated with this maturation.

Oh,...it has just dawned on me you are addressing the 'big picture' and not about some short term expectation.

Sorry, should understand your writing style better than that by now.

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben d,
yes, Time is immeorial and so should never be taken into consideration for those who live HERE-NOW. Shift to time zone happens as soon as the Mind is in play.
The other fact is that either by evolution or by revolution one has to reach that state and those who have already able to understand the STILLNESS of the mind and tasted it; can never go back as his real birth has already taken place and it is the only way left i.e. revolution.
More as we go along.
Love & rgds

 

[SimonCross]

friend ben d,
Like to start another thread as to what is enlightenment as we/ everyone needs to merge in understanding on the topic.
Love & rgds

Greetings
This a most interesting topic!
Meditating is something I regulary do as my job at the hospital can be pretty stressful. However to reach the core that is the seat of one soul/consciousness for I look for what I call the quiet place, that place that has no name and is all one where one finds everything and yet where one can find nothing through awareness and focus. Today many have become so material wise to the point that they have become shut off from the other half that is spiritual. No wonder we live in a crazy world!!


My View
As to enlightenment I would say that it is consciousness which is called by one name that is God. Where there is wisdon,balance and peace two become one!! Enlightement would make a great debate zenzero and ben d.

With Blessings

Simon Cross:canoe:

 

[zenzero]

Friend Simon Cross,

As to enlightenment I would say that it is consciousness which is called by one name that is God. Where there is wisdon,balance and peace two become one!! Enlightement would make a great debate zenzero and ben d.

frubals for that perfect understanding.
Regards a debate!
As you are aware that the meditative state is one where the individual is no more as because the mind is not thinking and at that state the individual is only a part of that whole which as you said we call god etc. etc.
Debates are part of the active mind and this mind itself is the barrier.
That is the root of all peoblem and each person who stays in the MIND is an ego which cannot be let gone esily the more we deabte the more the minds hold on to it.
It is a question of merging through understanding that we come closer as parts of the whole.
Admit that surely there are many individuals who have an understanding of the subject but what could help everyone is for all of them to share more often and create a buddha field where more understanding and merging takes place instead of ego satisfying responses, leading more to clinging of the mind.
Look forward to more communications with you.
Love & rgds

 

[Aupmanyav]

Rgds * PAST KARMA*; even if one believes it or not, it IS there.

Your believing in it makes it necessary for all people to believe in it? Love and regards, Zenzero.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Aupmanyav,

Your believing in it makes it necessary for all people to believe in it? Love and regards, Zenzero.

Things happen out of its own accord not due to anyone's belief. Nature / existence goes on following its own law even if some MINDS believe in them or not.
Besides when am yet to know who *I* am how can any belief develop in that *ME*.
Zenzero is just a label used.
Love & rgds