Meloni's assault on Italy abortion clinic

[Jayhawker Soule]

This article Aborto, via libera del Senato ai volontari "pro-vita" nei consultori: la norma è legge clarifies that regional governments will have the possibility (so it's not compulsory) to hire volunteers, that is pro-life associations professionals, that will try to assist the pregnant woman in the choice. They will not try to dissuade women from having an abortion.

Sorry, but sharing an article in Italian is less than helpful.

Let me return to the euronews article which you find "pretty confusing."

Meloni’s party maintains it does not want to revoke Italy's abortion law, but instead wants to allow "collaboration by suitable groups and voluntary associations so as to help overcome the reasons why a woman might decide to terminate a pregnancy”. [emphasis added - JS]​

It appears that the article is quoting the Brothers of Italy and/or the bill itself, and yet:

1. You suggest: "regional governments will have the possibility ... to hire volunteers, that is pro-life associations professionals" but you have yet to clarify what qualifies as a pro-life professional.
2. You argue that "They will not try to dissuade women from having an abortion," while the quote makes clear that the intent of this incursion is "to help overcome the reasons why a woman might decide to terminate a pregnancy."

Finally, in post #16, I ask ...

"why did it require action by Italy's Chamber of Deputies and Senate to enable entry,"​

and you answer ...

"because the law on abortion clearly says that abortion is not a contraceptive method, so it cannot be used irresponsbly and numerous times."​

​

And you talk about "pretty confusing."

 

[Estro Felino]

Sorry, but sharing an article in Italian is less than helpful.

Let me return to the euronews article which you find "pretty confusing."

Meloni’s party maintains it does not want to revoke Italy's abortion law, but instead wants to allow "collaboration by suitable groups and voluntary associations so as to help overcome the reasons why a woman might decide to terminate a pregnancy”. [emphasis added - JS]​

It appears that the article is quoting the Brothers of Italy and/or the bill itself, and yet:

1. You suggest: "regional governments will have the possibility ... to hire volunteers, that is pro-life associations professionals" but you have yet to clarify what qualifies as a pro-life professional.
2. You argue that "They will not try to dissuade women from having an abortion," while the quote makes clear that the intent of this incursion is "to help overcome the reasons why a woman might decide to terminate a pregnancy."

Finally, in post #16, I ask ...

"why did it require action by Italy's Chamber of Deputies and Senate to enable entry,"​

and you answer ...

"because the law on abortion clearly says that abortion is not a contraceptive method, so it cannot be used irresponsbly and numerous times."​

​

And you talk about "pretty confusing."

I would like to ask you something about certain interesting data.

Aborti chirurgici in Italia

Dati dalle statistiche del Ministero della Salute[37]​
1978	68.688	1979	187.752	1980	220.263	1981	224.377	1982	234.593	1983	231.404	1984	227.809	1985	210.597	1986	198.375	1987	191.469
1988	179.193	1989	171.684	1990	165.980	1991	160.532	1992	152.424	1993	148.033	1994	138.952	1995	139.549	1996	140.398	1997	140.525
1998	138.357	1999	139.213	2000	135.133	2001	132.234	2002	134.106	2003	132.174	2004	138.123	2005	132.790	2006	131.018	2007	126.562
2008	121.301	2009	116.933	2010	115.372	2011	109.538	2012	103.191	2013	102.644	2014	96.578	2015	87.639	2016	84.926	2017	80.733
2018	76.328	2019	73.207	2020	66.413

This is taken from wikipedia. Number of aborts performed in Italy from the seventies onward.
as you can see, in 1980 the number of abortions was 220,263. In 2020 it was 66.413.
A significant decrease.

What is it due to, in your opinion? Considering that the birth rate collapse has been significant as well?

A) wiser and more frequent use of contraception
B) more women have decided to keep the baby, in recent years
C) other

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would like to ask you something about certain interesting data.

And I would like you to stay on topic.

 

[viole]

C) other

Abortion pills you can buy on the Internet.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Estro Felino]

And I would like you to stay on topic.

It's on topic: that data was meant to show you that these counselling centers or family advice clinics work like a charm.
They provide young women and also adult women with all the information on contraception and on prevention.
So the risk of unwanted pregnancies is almost reduced to zero.
The presence of these volunteers will just improve the situation on prevention and contraception.

 

[Estro Felino]

Abortion pills you can buy on the Internet.

Ciao

- viole

From that magnificent pharmaceutical company whose name is that of a Bundesland.

They work like a charm. Hormonal pills who reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancies this zero.

I also used a Swiss brand pills.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Abortion pills you can buy on the Internet.

Ciao

- viole

From CNN (May 12, 2019) Abortion is a right in Italy. For many women, getting one is nearly impossible.

 

[viole]

From CNN (May 12, 2019) Abortion is a right in Italy. For many women, getting one is nearly impossible.

Every democracy has the goverments it deserves.

By the way, I got my Italian citizenship, too, recently.

Ciao

- viole

 

[crossfire]

Do these pro life counselors get a commission from adoption agencies for convincing women to give birth in order for the baby to be adopted? What is the demand vs the available supply? More than 10 to 1?

 

[Estro Felino]

Do these pro life counselors get a commission from adoption agencies for convincing women to give birth in order for the baby to be adopted? What is the demand vs the available supply? More than 10 to 1?

Exactly. They show them alternative solutions like giving the baby for adoption.
But they can't force her to carry out a pregnancy. It's illegal. The choice is hers.

 

[Estro Felino]

Every democracy has the goverments it deserves.

By the way, I got my Italian citizenship, too, recently.

Ciao

- viole

Nice. Have you got your health card, that grants you free healthcare?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's on topic: that data was meant to show you that these counselling centers or family advice clinics works like a charm.

Therefore?

To the extent that this was true, it was true before changing the law to facilitate the incursion of so-called pro-life apologists.

To the extent that even a single woman feels bullied by this incursion, or avoids these clinics in order to avoid such confrontation, it is shameful.

 

[crossfire]

Exactly. They show them alternative solutions like giving the baby for adoption.
But they can't force her to carry out a pregnancy. It's illegal. The choice is hers.

Is this the only place where abortions are available, or is this just a counseling center?

Here, we would have pro life "clinics' pretending to be "clinics" by advertising free pregnancy tests. When women found out what they were, they would walk around with signs saying "Fake Clinc" so all the other women in the area would know.

 

[crossfire]

If this is taking place in actually medical clinics, these "counselors" MUST NOT be allowed access to the women's medical records.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

All right...it's not a problem of generation gap.
But let's not forget that millennials were raised with the pill mantra. Some of them have been taking the pill since they were sixteen.

So has my wife, who's a Gen Xer.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't disapprove of it. I mean...most Italian women use contraception. I guess it's foreign women (migrants) that rely on abortion the most.

In Italy, abortion is a right. For many women there, getting one is nearly impossible.

The number of doctors in Italy refusing to perform abortions is on the rise. Activists are worried that a woman's right to choose could become obsolete.

edition.cnn.com

 

[Estro Felino]

So has my wife, who's a Gen Xer.

I was speaking of my country. Not of modern Australia.

 

[Estro Felino]

If this is taking place in actually medical clinics, these "counselors" MUST NOT be allowed access to the women's medical records.

Ok...it's my fault because I was taking for granted that you guys knew that a woman, before the medical procedure (whether it's through abortion pill or surgery) must (by law) undergo a psychological visit. A professional will show her the available options and will investigate on the pregnancy.
How it happened. Whether there was rape, or not (so the perpetrator will not get away with it) and whether she used contraceptives, or not.

A girl confessed on national TV that these visits are very traumatic. She had to have an abortion and a woman in her sixties, with big, green eyes asked her the most embarassing and private question on the sexual act. And why she hadn't used a contraceptive.

I guess there will be pro-life associations who will have the chance to work in this pre-abortion procedure.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Ok...it's my fault because I was taking for granted that you guys knew that a woman, before the medical procedure (whether it's through abortion pill or surgery) must (by law) undergo a psychological visit. A professional will show her the available options and will investigate on the pregnancy.
How it happened. Whether there was rape, or not (so the perpetrator will not get away with it) and whether she used contraceptives, or not.

A girl confessed on national TV that these visits are very traumatic. She had to have an abortion and a woman in her sixties, with big, green eyes asked her the most embarassing and private question on the sexual act. And why she hadn't used a contraceptive.

I guess there will be pro-life associations who will have the chance to work in this pre-abortion procedure.

It sounds pretty pro-life already though, so what is this intended to add?

 

[Estro Felino]

It sounds pretty pro-life already though, so what is this intended to add?

The original law was meant to discourage abortion by pushing women to use as many contraceptive methods as possible, because the procedure is complex and not pleasant at all (I mean the psychological visit).
These pro-life associations, I guess, will push women to think again, and show them that they can give their baby for adoption.