Messengers and Prophets (Rasool & Nabi)

[Link]

What else determines the dismissal of an imposter messenger?

It doesn't have a truthful tone to me. It has whiney tone. It doesn't befit God to talk like this.

 

[Link]

Salam

The Quran is calculated words to the extent, that various type of voices recite the Quran, and it's as beautiful as words can get (in sounding). Is this true of Bahai texts?

Does it flow as good as Quran musically? Well this is a sign - and Bahai texts are not a bigger sign then Quran in any terms nor on par.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It doesn't have a truthful tone to me. It has whiney tone. It doesn't befit God to talk like this.

Can you please explain how a whiney tone is not truthful.

The Quran is calculated words to the extent, that various type of voices recite the Quran, and it's as beautiful as words can get (in sounding). Is this true of Bahai texts?

Like when you hear the various voices of anyone that starts singing your favourite song?

Does it flow as good as Quran musically? Well this is a sign - and Bahai texts are not a bigger sign then Quran in any terms nor on par.

Is that a sign that all imposter messengers are not musical, or is it a sign that only the true messengers are among musicians?

 

[Link]

Can you please explain how a whiney tone is not truthful.

God is above that type of tone and so are his exalted ones. And if you see speech of Fatima (a) for example on the occasion Fadak is taken, you can see assertiveness but never whiney tone.

In fact, the words of Ahlulbayt (a) are higher then Bahai texts, so how can Bahai texts be from God?

 

[Link]

Is that a sign that all imposter messengers are not musical, or is it a sign that only the true messengers are among musicians?

Once God brings a sign, he brings like it or better. Since the musical and eloquence of Quran is a big sign, if he will replace the Quran, he will bring something similar in terms of sign or better. Bahai texts are no where close in terms of eloquence or musical tone and so in what in terms of proof and sign is Bahai texts better at?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

God is above that type of tone and so are his exalted ones. And if you see speech of Fatima (a) for example on the occasion Fadak is taken, you can see assertiveness but never whiney tone.

Muhammad talks of the other messengers of Allah being rejected. And as per Quran anyone who dismisses any of Allahs other messengers are therefore equal to unbelievers (because those that know the message, would never dismiss another messenger).

Here:
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful". Quran 4:150-152.


So is Muhammad being assertive of all the other true messengers, or is he just being whiney?

In fact, the words of Ahlulbayt (a) are higher then Bahai texts, so how can Bahai texts be from God?

Maybe true messengers get rejected because they are in fact speaking in foolish nonsense.

As per Quran:
"Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Quran for just foolish nonsense." Quran 25:30

Do you think Baha'llah is also speaking foolish nonsense, which gets rejected?

Is Muhammad just being whiney by saying other messengers were also rejected? Or is it assertive, like its part of the design to be easily rejected?

Once God brings a sign, he brings like it or better. Since the musical and eloquence of Quran is a big sign, if he will replace the Quran, he will bring something similar in terms of sign or better. Bahai texts are no where close in terms of eloquence or musical tone and so in what in terms of proof and sign is Bahai texts better at?

If your reasoning is that you can identify imposter messengers by their inability to speak musically, then how can you clearly identify the true messengers amongst many musicians?

 

[Link]

I didn't say talking about Messengers (a) being denied is the whiney tone.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I didn't say talking about Messengers (a) being denied is the whiney tone.

Why do you deny Baha'u'llah as one of the messengers of Allah? That is my question. What is your reasoning to reject. You say he talks too much and should be said shorter, and now you are talking about whiney tone.

I think the tone you hear depends on your interpretation of the written text. Ask a Bahai about what tone Baha'u'llah speaks in.

Do you think a messenger is still a messenger even if you don't like what you hear?

 

[Link]

Why do you deny Baha'u'llah as one of the messengers of Allah? That is my question. What is your reasoning to reject. You say he talks too much and should be said shorter, and now you are talking about whiney tone.

I think the tone you hear depends on your interpretation of the written text. Ask a Bahai about what tone Baha'u'llah speaks in.

Do you think a messenger is still a messenger even if you don't like what you hear?

I've shown many reasons and threads of why I don't accept Baha'allah as a Messenger of God. That's a name he gave himself too, he was not born with that name.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

Maybe I ask you a question about the following verses:


19:51 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Moses. He was truly a chosen man, and was a messenger and a prophet.
19:52 We called him from the right side of Mount Ṭûr, and drew him near, speaking ˹with him˺ directly.
19:53 And We appointed for him—out of Our grace—his brother, Aaron, as a prophet.
19:54 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Ishmael. He was truly a man of his word, and was a messenger and a prophet.
19:55 He used to urge his people to pray and give alms-tax. And his Lord was well pleased with him.
19:56 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Enoch. He was surely a man of truth and a prophet.




The question is, why do you think, in the above verses, Moses and Ismael are called "a Messenger and a Prophet", but in just one verse after those, Aaron and Enoch are only called "a prophet"?

Is there any reason? How do we know?

Salam

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ وَقَفَّيْنَا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ أَفَكُلَّمَا جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُكُمُ اسْتَكْبَرْتُمْ فَفَرِيقًا كَذَّبْتُمْ وَفَرِيقًا تَقْتُلُونَ | Certainly, We gave Moses the Book and followed him with the apostles, and We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, manifest proofs and confirmed him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not that whenever an apostle brought you that which was not to your liking, you would act arrogantly; so you would impugn a group [of them], and slay a[nother] group? | Al-Baqara : 87

Followed Him with Messengers. Why cannot these Messengers be Jesus and Muhammad that came after Moses?

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۘ مِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَلَّمَ اللَّهُ ۖ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَلَٰكِنِ اخْتَلَفُوا فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَفَرَ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلُوا وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ | These are the apostles, some of whom We gave an advantage over others: of them are those to whom Allah spoke and some of them He raised in rank, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, manifest proofs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Had Allah wished, those who succeeded them would not have fought one another after the manifest proofs had come to them. But they differed. So there were among them those who had faith and there were among them those who were faithless, and had Allah wished, they would not have fought one another; but Allah does whatever He desires. | Al-Baqara : 253

"telkal" means the ones just mentioned are Messengers and it states this after mentioned the part of the story of Samuel (a), Talut (a) and Dawood (a).

You are right about تلك.

But in my understanding تلك in verse 2:253, goes back to verse 2:252, but not any previous verses before 252.


"These are the Signs of Allah: we rehearse them to thee in truth: verily Thou art one of the messengers" 2:252

It means, Muhammad is one of the Messengers, and in the next verse it says "some of the Messengers we exalted over others...", meaning Muhammad is one the many Messengers, and some of those Messengers are exalted.

I don't think This تلك has anything to do with Samuel, Talut or Dawood in previous verses. it seems to me that you are reading more than what it says.

إِنَّا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ نُوحٍ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورًا | We have indeed revealed to you as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him, and [as] We revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon—and We gave David the Psalms— | An-Nisaa : 163

The verse after "and Messengers we recounted earlier and Messengers we did not recount to you..." implies the above are all Messengers. It's implicit.

وَرُسُلًا قَدْ قَصَصْنَاهُمْ عَلَيْكَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَرُسُلًا لَمْ نَقْصُصْهُمْ عَلَيْكَ ۚ وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهُ مُوسَىٰ تَكْلِيمًا | and apostles We have recounted to you earlier and apostles We have not recounted to you—and to Moses Allah spoke directly— | An-Nisaa : 164

Verse 164, does not necessarily mean, everyone in verse 163 is a Messenger. It can mean, there are some Messengers among the mentioned Prophets in 163. For example Moses is one.

Also regarding the covenant:

لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ | Certainly We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent apostles to them. Whenever an apostle brought them that which was not to their liking, they would impugn a part of them, and a part they would slay. | Al-Maaida : 70

It's obvious that the covenant was in regards to the Messengers. And verse 5:12 emphasizes if they honor and help the Messengers and so the Successors of Musa (a) were obviously Messengers.

Verse Al-Maaida:70 is not about 5:12. It is about the Messengers such as Messiah and Muhammad, which both are mentioned in Torah.

It becomes clear in the following verses;

"Those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. The Messiah ˹himself˺ said, “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah—my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever associates others with Allah ˹in worship˺ will surely be forbidden Paradise by Allah. Their home will be the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers."5:72

فَأْتِيَاهُ فَقُولَا إِنَّا رَسُولَا رَبِّكَ فَأَرْسِلْ مَعَنَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَلَا تُعَذِّبْهُمْ ۖ قَدْ جِئْنَاكَ بِآيَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَىٰ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الْهُدَىٰ | So approach him and say, ‘‘We are two apostles of your Lord. Let the Children of Israel go with us, and do not torture them! We certainly bring you a sign from your Lord, and may peace be upon him who follows guidance! | Taa-Haa : 47

Here Haroun (a) is referred to as a Messenger along with Musa (a).

That translation is not correct. رَسولا here is not "Two Messengers". It should be translated as "sent". This is how it should be translated:

"So go to him and say: 'We have indeed been sent by your Lord....."


"رَسُولًا" (rasūlā) is actually a misunderstanding of the dual form. The correct dual forms in Arabic for "رسول" (rasūl) are:

1. **رَسُولَانِ (rasūlān)** - Nominative case (when the two messengers are the subject of a sentence).
2. **رَسُولَيْنِ (rasūlayn)** - Accusative and genitive cases (when the two messengers are the object of a sentence or follow a preposition).

However, "رَسُولًا" (rasūlā) is the singular accusative or genitive form, meaning "a messenger" when used as the object or following a preposition.

### Correct Forms:
1. **Nominative Case (Subject)**
- Dual: **رَسُولَانِ** (rasūlān)
- Example: جاءَ رَسُولَانِ (Jā’a rasūlān) - "Two messengers came."

2. **Accusative and Genitive Cases (Object or Following a Preposition)**
- Dual: **رَسُولَيْنِ** (rasūlayn)
- Example (Accusative): رأيتُ رَسُولَيْنِ (Ra’aytu rasūlayn) - "I saw two messengers."
- Example (Genitive): مررتُ بِرَسُولَيْنِ (Marartu bi-rasūlayn) - "I passed by two messengers."

### Summary
- **رَسُولَانِ (rasūlān)**: Dual form in the nominative case (subject).
- **رَسُولَيْنِ (rasūlayn)**: Dual form in the accusative and genitive cases (object or following a preposition).
- **رَسُولًا (rasūlā)**: Singular form in the accusative or genitive case (a messenger).

Understanding these grammatical nuances helps ensure proper usage and clarity in Arabic sentences.

ثُمَّ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلَنَا تَتْرَىٰ ۖ كُلَّ مَا جَاءَ أُمَّةً رَسُولُهَا كَذَّبُوهُ ۚ فَأَتْبَعْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ بَعْضًا وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَحَادِيثَ ۚ فَبُعْدًا لِقَوْمٍ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ | Then We sent Our apostles successively. Whenever there came to a nation its apostle, they impugned him, so We made them follow one another [to extinction] and We turned them into folktales. So away with the faithless lot! | Al-Muminoon : 44

ثُمَّ أَرْسَلْنَا مُوسَىٰ وَأَخَاهُ هَارُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَسُلْطَانٍ مُبِينٍ | Then We sent Moses and Aaron, his brother, with Our signs and a manifest authority | Al-Muminoon : 45

These verses show up until Musa (a) and Haroun (a) were sent, Messengers were sent in quick succession one after the other, that is what the term " تَتْرَىٰ" implies.

Successively means: Abarahm, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, and future Messengers. But between these Messengers, Prophets were sent.

Also, not all Messengers are Nabis, and this implied in the following verse:

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۘ مِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَلَّمَ اللَّهُ ۖ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَلَٰكِنِ اخْتَلَفُوا فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَفَرَ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلُوا وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ | These are the apostles, some of whom We gave an advantage over others: of them are those to whom Allah spoke and some of them He raised in rank, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, manifest proofs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Had Allah wished, those who succeeded them would not have fought one another after the manifest proofs had come to them. But they differed. So there were among them those who had faith and there were among them those who were faithless, and had Allah wished, they would not have fought one another; but Allah does whatever He desires. | Al-Baqara : 253

So minhum means in sub group of Messengers that God spoke to.

Name a Messenger who is not Nabi.

 

[Link]

Mursal means sent. Murslayn would be "two sent ones". Haroun (a) is said to be a Rasool. . The rest is just denial of what is obvious.

 

[Link]

Ismail (a) is a successor of Ibrahim (a) (his son) but is said to be a Messenger. This shows your definition does not work as well.

 

[Link]

Successively means: Abarahm, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, and future Messengers. But between these Messengers, Prophets were sent.

It means uninterrupted succession here. So before Musa (a) and Haroun (a) all the way back to Nuh (a), it was uninterrupted sending of Messengers.

 

[Link]

You are right about تلك.

But in my understanding تلك in verse 2:253, goes back to verse 2:252, but not any previous verses before 252.
u are reading more than what it says.

You don't understand how to contextualize speech. It's a huge problem you have. It came after mentioning the story of Samuel (a), Talut (a) and Dawood (a). You are in pure denial. The previous verse also emphasizes these are signs of God rehearsed and Mohammad (s) is certianly of the sent ones. Then says "these Messengers", it's obvious it's referring to what was just rehearsed.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ismail (a) is a successor of Ibrahim (a) (his son) but is said to be a Messenger. This shows your definition does not work as well.

Good point to farther discover.

Let me ask this question.

Was not Abraham and Ismael before Moses? Then why in these verses, they are mentioned after Moses?


19:51 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Moses. He was truly a chosen man, and was a messenger and a prophet.
19:52 We called him from the right side of Mount Ṭûr, and drew him near, speaking ˹with him˺ directly.
19:53 And We appointed for him—out of Our grace—his brother, Aaron, as a prophet.
19:54 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Ishmael. He was truly a man of his word, and was a messenger and a prophet.
19:55 He used to urge his people to pray and give alms-tax. And his Lord was well pleased with him.
19:56 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Enoch. He was surely a man of truth and a prophet.

 

[Link]

Was not Abraham and Ismael before Moses? Then why in these verses, they are mentioned after Moses?

Irrelevant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Irrelevant.

Valid question though. There is a reason. It is not arbitrary. God does not just say things without any reason in a particular order.

Beside that, Look, it says, Moses was a Messenger and Prophet. Then after this verse, it talks about Aaron.

Notice, Moses and Aaron were together.

Now, the following verses follow the same logic. It talks about Ismael and dris, in the same manner as Moses and Aaron.
It means, Ismael and Idris were together, in the same way, Moses and Aaron were.

But who was this Prophet Idris? When did He come?

Let's look at Wikipedia:

Idris (Arabic: إدريس, romanized: ʾIdrīs) is an ancient prophet mentioned in the Quran, who Muslims believe was the third prophet after Seth.[1][2] He is the second prophet mentioned in the Quran. Islamic tradition has unanimously identified Idris with the biblical Enoch.[3][4] Many Muslim scholars of the classical and medieval periods held that Idris and Hermes Trismegistus were the same person.[5][6]


Thus, Idris came long before Abraham.
Conclusion: this Ismael had come long before Abraham. It is not that same Ismael, Son of Abraham.
It is like Hassan. It is the second Imam, but also, the 11th Imam.

So, this Ismael is not the successor of Abraham.
It was a Messenger, and a Prophet who had come long before Abraham .

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

You might be interested in this


عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: إن إسماعيل الذي قال الله عزوجل في كتابه: * (واذكر في الكتاب إسمعيل إنه كان صادق الوعد وكان رسولا نبيا) * لم يكن إسماعيل بن إبراهيم، بل كان نبيا من الأنبياء، بعثه الله عزوجل إلى قومه، فأخذوه فسلخوا فروة (جلدة الرأس) رأسه ووجهه، فأتاه ملك فقال: إن الله جل جلاله بعثني إليك، فمرني بما شئت. فقال: لي اسوة بما يصنع بالحسين (عليه السلام)

This narration, attributed to Imam Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام), discusses a figure named Isma'il who is distinguished from Isma'il ibn Ibrahim (Ishmael, son of Abraham) mentioned in the Quran. According to this narration:

"Isma'il" mentioned by Allah in His Book as "truthful in promise" and a messenger prophet was not Isma'il ibn Ibrahim (Ishmael, son of Abraham), but rather another prophet among the prophets. Allah sent him to his people, and they skinned his head and face. An angel then visited him and conveyed that Allah had sent him, offering to fulfill any command. Isma'il replied, "I have a model in what has been done to Hussain (عليه السلام)."

 

[Link]

Lut (a) appears after Elyas (a) in Surah Saffat, do you conclude Lut (a) is after Elyas (a)?

But since we doing hadiths and no longer trying to see what Quran says about the difference between Rasool and Nabi:

There is a ziyarat of Imam Ali (a) it says "stand directed towards the grave of the Commander of the Faithful and say:

Peace be upon you o Messenger of God, peace be upon o chosen one by God, peace be upon you o trusted one by God.... (keeps going).. Peace be upon our Mawla the Commander of the faithful Ali ibn Talib.. (keeps going)"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Lut (a) appears after Elyas (a) in Surah Saffat, do you conclude Lut (a) is after Elyas (a)?

No. And i didn't say Idris and Ishmael were after Moses either. I only asked the question, what is the wisdom.

The Wisdom of those verses, is to teach, in every Age, when God sends a Messenger, with Him, He also send at least a Helper, with lower station.

For example, Muhammad and Ali. Jesus and Peter (or Hawwarioun), Moses and Aaron. Etc.

But since we doing hadiths and no longer trying to see what Quran says about the difference between Rasool and Nabi:

We are actually relying on the quran, and use Hadith to help us understand the Quran better.

There is a ziyarat of Imam Ali (a) it says "stand directed towards the grave of the Commander of the Faithful and say:

Peace be upon you o Messenger of God, peace be upon o chosen one by God, peace be upon you o trusted one by God.... (keeps going).. Peace be upon our Mawla the Commander of the faithful Ali ibn Talib.. (keeps going)"

In the Ziyaray of Ali, "peace be upon Messenger of God" means Muhammad.

It is the opening phrase. It is like you say "in the name of God" before reading a Surrah or doing something. It does not mean, after that, you will be talking about God.
herr is the same. The reason it is written as part of Ali"s Ziyarat, is to remind, Muhammad is first, then Ali, in terms of Station. That is the Wisdom of it, as I understand.