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Messengers and Prophets (Rasool & Nabi)

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
I've shown many reasons and threads of why I don't accept Baha'allah as a Messenger of God.

Its a simple question and you seem to be evading giving a clear answer. By saying that you have done it before somewhere else, rather than doing it here now. You could have given me a clear simple single sentence answer with the same amount of effort you put in typing that, if you had one.

I know the fact is you wouldn't be able to explain why Baha'u'llah is an imposter unless you have a clear way of knowing who true messenger/s are and can tell the difference.


Yet you claim Baha'u'llah is a liar:

I think speech of a truthful person is higher then a speech of a liar, let alone exalted souls over liars, let alone God over liars. To me, Bahai text doesn't even sound from a truthful person.

The Quran states someone dismissing any of Allahs other messengers is equal to an unbeliever. Maybe because unbelievers can't hear the truth of the Quran (and the messengers).

You are dismissing Baha'u'llah without explaining why he is an imposter.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No. And i didn't say Idris and Ishmael were after Moses either. I only asked the question, what is the wisdom.
The is more wisdom to believe God is clarifying Ismail (a) as a Messenger as in the one talked about in the other eleven verses about him, then to believe it's a different Ismail (a). To make a different Ismail (a) is to decontextualize how Quran mentions the Prophets (a). You know very well it's about the same Ismail (a) but you pick one hadith to go against natural understanding, because it contradicts your theory.
n the Ziyaray of Ali, "peace be upon Messenger of God" means Muhammad.

No it means Imam Ali (a). You can check Ziyarats of all Imams (a) and other ones of Imam Ali (a), they don't address Mohammad (s) in the start. You made that standard up.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Lut (a) was a nephew of Ibrahim (a). Quran also says regarding him to be a Messenger in Surah Poets.

So we have Haroun (a), Lut (a), Ismail (a), Samuel (a), Talut (a), and Dawood (a) mentioned as Messengers and other verses that show it's not your definition, yet you keep going with your made up theory.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Its a simple question and you seem to be evading giving a clear answer. By saying that you have done it before somewhere else, rather than doing it here now. You could have given me a clear simple single sentence answer with the same amount of effort you put in typing that, if you had one.
He contradicts a lot of the clear of the Quran, for example, his theory of day of judgment, his statement Angels are saintly humans, and other things. I've made threads showing why his interpretation is impossible per Quran.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
@Link

You might be interested in this Hadith in Al-Kafi:

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn Mahbub from Hisham ibn Salim from Yazid al-Kunasiyy who has said the following.

"I asked abu Ja‘far (a.s.), ‘Was Jesus at the time he spoke to people from the cradle a Divine authority over the people of his time?" He said, "At that time he was a prophet, a Divine authority over the
people but not a Mursal (Messenger).
....

That tells us, the Messengers were first a Prophet, then, became a Messenger. Without first becoming a Prophet, One cannot be a Messenger. So, Messengership is something more than Prophethood.

Here is another example:

The Hadeeth from Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (AS) says:

Allah has made Ebrahim a servant (Abd) before making him a prophet (Nabi)), and made him a prophet before making him a messenger (Rasool), and made him a messenger before making him His Khaleel and made him His Khaleel before making him an Imam. (Al-Kafi 1/175).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your conclusions are off. For example, Ibrahim (a) became an Imam per these hadiths after Messengerhood and Nubuwa, so by your standards our Imams could not be Imams unless they were all Nabis.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The is more wisdom to believe God is clarifying Ismail (a) as a Messenger as in the one talked about in the other eleven verses about him, then to believe it's a different Ismail (a). To make a different Ismail (a) is to decontextualize how Quran mentions the Prophets (a). You know very well it's about the same Ismail (a) but you pick one hadith to go against natural understanding, because it contradicts your theory.

You conveniently ignored the context of the Verse.

This Ismael in the verse came along with Idris. Idris lived before Noah.


Beside this, there are several other Hadithes, from Sadiq and Muhamamd, both saying this is a different Ismael whose Father is حزقیل

إن إسماعيل مات قبل إبراهيم، وإن إبراهيم كان حجة لله قائما صاحب شريعة فإلى من أرسل إسماعيل إذن ؟ فقلت: جعلت فداك: فمن كان ؟ قال عليه السلام: ذاك إسماعيل بن حزقيل النبي عليه السلام بعثه الله إلى قومه فكذبوه فقتلوه وسلخوا وجهه، فغضب الله له عليهم، فوجه إليه إسطاطائيل ملك العذاب فقال له: يا إسماعيل أنا إسطاطائيل ملك العذاب وجهني إليك رب العزة لاعذب قومك بأنواع العذاب إن شئت، فقال له إسماعيل: لا حاجة لي في ذلك. فأوحى الله إليه فما حاجتك يا إسماعيل ؟ فقال: يا رب إنك أخذت الميثاق لنفسك بالربوبية، ولمحمد بالنبوة، ولاوصيائه بالولاية، وأخبرت خير خلقك بما تفعل أمته بالحسين بن علي عليه السلام من بعد نبيها، وإنك وعدت الحسين عليه السلام أن تكره إلى الدنيا حتى ينتقم بنفسه ممن فعل ذلك به، فحاجتي إليك يا رب أن تكرني إلى الدنيا حتى أنتقم ممن فعل ذلك بي كما تكر الحسين عليه السلام. فوعد الله إسماعيل بن حزقيل ذلك، فهو يكر مع الحسين عليه السلام


This passage provides a detailed account of a prophet named Isma'il ibn Hizqil (إسماعيل بن حزقيل) and his martyrdom. It also draws a parallel to the martyrdom of Hussain ibn Ali (عليه السلام). Here is the translation:

"Indeed, Isma'il died before Ibrahim, and Ibrahim was a standing proof of Allah, the possessor of a Sharia. So to whom was Isma'il sent then?" I said, "May I be your sacrifice, who was it then?" He (عليه السلام) said: "That was Isma'il ibn Hizqil, the prophet. Allah sent him to his people, but they denied him, killed him, and skinned his face. Allah was angered by this and sent Isṭāṭā'īl, the angel of punishment, who said to him: 'O Isma'il, I am Isṭāṭā'īl, the angel of punishment. The Lord of Might has sent me to you to punish your people with various forms of torment if you wish.' Isma'il replied: 'I have no need for that.' Then Allah revealed to him: 'What is your need, O Isma'il?' He said: 'O Lord, You took a covenant for Yourself with lordship, for Muhammad with prophethood, and for his successors with guardianship. You informed the best of Your creation about what his nation would do to Hussain ibn Ali (عليه السلام) after their Prophet. You promised Hussain (عليه السلام) that You would bring him back to life in this world so that he could avenge himself against those who wronged him. My need, O Lord, is that You return me to this world so that I may avenge myself against those who did this to me, just as You will return Hussain (عليه السلام).' Allah promised Isma'il ibn Hizqil that he would be brought back with Hussain (عليه السلام)."



And here is yet another source:


تفسيرِ القُمّيِّ : في قولهِ تعالى : «و اذْكُر قالَ : وَعدَ وَعدا فان��َظَرَ صاحِبَهُ سَنَةً ، وهُو إسماعيلُ بنُ حِزقيلَ عليه السلام [11] .


"In the commentary of al-Qummi on the verse of Allah: 'And mention' [He] said: 'He promised a promise and waited for his companion for a year, and he is Isma'il ibn Hizqil (عليه السلام).'"


Here is another Hadith from Muhammad;

في النبوي (صلى الله عليه وآله) ما ملخصه: أن عابد بني إسرائيل لقى إسماعيل بن حزقيل فقال له: لا تبرح حتى أرجع إليك يا إسماعيل، فسهى عنه فبقي إسماعيل حولا هناك فأنبت الله عشبا يأكل منه وأجرى له عينا وأظله بغمام - الخ

"A worshiper from the Children of Israel met Isma'il ibn Hizqil (Ismael son of Hizqil) and said to him, 'Do not leave until I return to you, O Isma'il.' So he forgot about him, and Isma'il stayed there waiting. Allah caused grass to grow for him to eat from, provided him with a spring, and shaded him with clouds."


No it means Imam Ali (a). You can check Ziyarats of all Imams (a) and other ones of Imam Ali (a), they don't address Mohammad (s) in the start. You made that standard up.

This Hadith in Al-Kafi, explains it all:


Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Barqi from abu Talib from Sadir who has said that he asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) the following.

"A certain group of people believe that you are gods. They read to us from the Quran about it. And it is He Who in heaven is God and in earth is God." (43:84). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and
Allah also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. I swear by Allah, Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Resurrection. The only thing from Allah to them will be His anger."

The narrator has said that he said, "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you are messenger and read to from the Holy Quran. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and His Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger." The narrator has said that he then asked, "What are you then?" the Imam (a.s.) said,
"We are the treasuries of the knowledge of Allah. We are the translators of the commands of Allah. We are infallible people. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has commanded people to obey us and prohibited them to disobey us. We are the complete Divine authority over all
that is below the heavens and above the earth."
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Your conclusions are off. For example, Ibrahim (a) became an Imam per these hadiths after Messengerhood and Nubuwa, so by your standards our Imams could not be Imams unless they were all Nabis.

I am glad to see you caught that.

The difference is, in Islam, the Function of Messengership and Prophethood appeared with Muhammad, and completed with Him. Then Allah, appointed Ali, and the rest, as Imams only. There was no need for Allah to make them also Messengers.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This Hadith in Al-Kafi, explains it all.
This hadith supports your view. But it's one hadith, and agreed upon beliefs (Aqeeda) can't be formed on khaber wahed (sole narration).

I already showed a ziyarat of Imam Ali (a) being called the Messenger of God. There is also this Du'a of Imam Zainal Abideen (a):


اَللّٰهُمَّ يَامَن

O Allah, O He who

خَصَّ مُحَمَّدًا وَآلَهٗ بِالْكَرَامَةِ

singled out Muhammad and his Household for honour,

وَ حَبَاهُمْ بِالرِّسَالَةِ

loved for them the messengerhood,

وَ خَصَّصْهُمْ بِالْوَسِيْلَةِ

specified them for the mediation,[347] so

وَ جَعَلَهُمْ وَرَثَةَ الْاَنْبِيَآءِ

appointed them the heirs to the prophets,

وَ خَتَمَ بِهِمُ الْاَوْصِيَآءَ وَ الْاَئِمَّةَ

sealed with them the executors and the Imams,

وَ عَلَّمَهُمْ عِلْمَ مَا كَانَ وَ عِلْمَ مَا بَقِيَ

taught them the knowledge of what has been and what remains to be,

وَ جَعَلَ أَفْئِدَةً مِنَ النَّاسِ تَهْوِي اِلَيْهِمْ

and made the hearts of the people incline toward them!

فَصَلِّ عَلٰى مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ الطَّاهِرِيْنَ

Bless Muhammad and his Household, the pure,

وَ افْعَلْ بِنَا مَا اَنْتَ أَهْلُهٗ فِي الدِّيْنِ وَ الدُّنْيَا وَ الْآخِرَةِ

and act toward us with that of which Thou art worthy in religion, in this world, and in the next world!

اِنَّكَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ.

Thou art powerful over everything.[348]

وَ كَانَ مِنْ دُعَآئِهٖ  في الصلاة على آدم

----

This also reminds of a verse that people associated with Ahlulbayt (a) a lot in the hadiths:

4 - حدثنا أحمد بن علي بن إبراهيم (رضي الله عنه)، قال: حدثنا أبي، عن أبيه إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن علي بن معبد، عن واصل، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن أبيه، قال: حضرت أبا جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر (عليهما السلام)، ودخل عليه رجل من الخوارج، فقال: يا أبا جعفر، أي شئ تعبد؟ قال: الله. قال: رأيته؟ قال: لم تره العيون بمشاهدة العيان، ورأته القلوب بحقائق الايمان، لا يعرف بالقياس، ولا يشبه بالناس، موصوف بالآيات، معروف بالعلامات، لا يجور في حكمه، ذلك الله لا إله إلا هو. قال: فخرج الرجل وهو يقول: الله أعلم حيث يجعل رسالته (3).

Ahmad b. `Ali b. Ibrahim (ra) narrated to us. He said: My father narrated to us from his father Ibrahim b. Hashim from `Ali b. Mu`abbad from Wasil from `Abdullah b. Sinan from his father. He said: I was with Aba Ja`far Muhammad b. `Ali al-Baqir (as) when a man visited him from the Khawarij. So, he said: O Aba Ja`far! What do you worship? He said: Allah. He said: Did you see Him? He said: The vision of eyes cannot comprehend Him. Rather, it is the hearts that will see Him through the realities of faith. He is not known by analogies, nor is He comprehended by the senses, nor can He be compared to the people. He is described by His signs and He is known by His indicators. He does not oppress in His wisdom – surely, this is Allah, there is no deity except Him. So the man left while saying, “Allah is most knowing of where He places His message” (6:124).

Al-Amālī, The Forty-Seventh Assembly, Friday, the Fifth of the Month of Rabi` al-Awwal, 368 AH., Hadith #4


There is also Ziyarat Jamia Al-Kabir, where they are said to be "the place of the messengerhood/message" (madinal Resalah).

In verse 6:124 we can see the definition of Rasool is clear, it's where God places his message. There is similarly wording and it pertains to the contention of people of the Messengers.

We can say there is a contradiction in this regard in hadiths. So we have to turn else where then hadiths since there is a contradiction in the hadiths.

As for your definition, it's problematic clearly with Lut (a) for example stated to be a Messenger in Surah Poets "I am towards you a trustworthy Messenger". Lut (a) is a nephew of Ibrahim (a) and Quran says "so believed in him (Ibrahim) Lut (did)". And so Lut (a) would be akin to Ali (a) and Haroun (a) as far helper type and contemporary type. Haroun (a) is also stated to be a Messenger into two verses.

Also as far I'm aware, Musa (a) never emphasizes to Pharaoh nor Lut (a) to his people, that they are NABIS even though they are. This is because Nubuwa is purely about scripture and them being a channel. In case of Musa (a), he received scripture AFTER Pharaoh was destroyed while Quran says that Musa (a) was sent to Pharaoh as a Messenger. So this means messenger does not need scripture. It's the message, and it doesn't have to be direct words from God, as Musa (a) conveyed and paraphrased what he understood of God's message in his words. He wasn't channeling scripture at this point.

There are also many verses showing all that is upon the Messenger is the clear conveyance and we see in Surah Yaseen, three sent ones upon them is the clear conveyance, hence all three were Messengers.

There is also a line from Imam Ali (a) in Nahjul balagha,

أَمْ أَنْزَلَ اللهُ سُبْحَانَهُ دِيناً تَامّاً فَقَصَّرَ الرَّسُولُ (صلى الله عليه وآله) عَنْ تَبْلِيغِهِ وَأَدَائِهِ؟

This shows there's a difference from what God revealed of the religion and the Messenger (Mohammad) conveying it. This shows God revealed the religion, but the Messengerhood is about making sure a clear conveyance of it occurs.

And this is verified also in 5:67 which the message would be incomplete if Mohammad (s) didn't convey regarding Ali (a) at Ghadeer.

5:67 shows the messages of God aren't necessarily scripture. Actually, you never find a verse saying "upon the Nabi is only the conveyance", because the Nabi job is to channel scripture and establish it as a legacy and proof, while the job of a Messenger is to convey clear understanding. Since the Nabi job is more of God's role you never find "it's upon the Nabi only".

So on this definition, Nabis who are not Messengers and Imams who are not messengers, would be only if clear conveyance of the messages are established and do not need to be revived and established.

If there are disputes, then a Messenger is needed to be referred to, because the understanding is off and there is confusing or sleep of people regarding the reminders.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You conveniently ignored the context of the Verse.
I think the context of it in the Quran is the 11 other places it mentions Ismail (a). You would have to ignore the natural way Quran reads to assume it's a different Ismail (a).

Ismail (a) also is a Hebrew name and the reference they have is towards Ismail (a) son of Ibrahim (a). It means "God has heard". Quran being revealed to people with reference to Jewish and Christian scripture, no one hearing this verse would assume of unknown Ismail of the past that a couple of hadiths talk about.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
This hadith supports your view. But it's one hadith, and agreed upon beliefs (Aqeeda) can't be formed on khaber wahed (sole narration).

I already showed a ziyarat of Imam Ali (a) being called the Messenger of God. There is also this Du'a of Imam Zainal Abideen (a):


اَللّٰهُمَّ يَامَن

O Allah, O He who

خَصَّ مُحَمَّدًا وَآلَهٗ بِالْكَرَامَةِ

singled out Muhammad and his Household for honour,

وَ حَبَاهُمْ بِالرِّسَالَةِ

loved for them the messengerhood,

وَ خَصَّصْهُمْ بِالْوَسِيْلَةِ

specified them for the mediation,[347] so

وَ جَعَلَهُمْ وَرَثَةَ الْاَنْبِيَآءِ

appointed them the heirs to the prophets,

وَ خَتَمَ بِهِمُ الْاَوْصِيَآءَ وَ الْاَئِمَّةَ

sealed with them the executors and the Imams,

وَ عَلَّمَهُمْ عِلْمَ مَا كَانَ وَ عِلْمَ مَا بَقِيَ

taught them the knowledge of what has been and what remains to be,

وَ جَعَلَ أَفْئِدَةً مِنَ النَّاسِ تَهْوِي اِلَيْهِمْ

and made the hearts of the people incline toward them!

فَصَلِّ عَلٰى مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ الطَّاهِرِيْنَ

Bless Muhammad and his Household, the pure,

وَ افْعَلْ بِنَا مَا اَنْتَ أَهْلُهٗ فِي الدِّيْنِ وَ الدُّنْيَا وَ الْآخِرَةِ

and act toward us with that of which Thou art worthy in religion, in this world, and in the next world!

اِنَّكَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ.

Thou art powerful over everything.[348]

وَ كَانَ مِنْ دُعَآئِهٖ  في الصلاة على آدم

----

This also reminds of a verse that people associated with Ahlulbayt (a) a lot in the hadiths:

4 - حدثنا أحمد بن علي بن إبراهيم (رضي الله عنه)، قال: حدثنا أبي، عن أبيه إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن علي بن معبد، عن واصل، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن أبيه، قال: حضرت أبا جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر (عليهما السلام)، ودخل عليه رجل من الخوارج، فقال: يا أبا جعفر، أي شئ تعبد؟ قال: الله. قال: رأيته؟ قال: لم تره العيون بمشاهدة العيان، ورأته القلوب بحقائق الايمان، لا يعرف بالقياس، ولا يشبه بالناس، موصوف بالآيات، معروف بالعلامات، لا يجور في حكمه، ذلك الله لا إله إلا هو. قال: فخرج الرجل وهو يقول: الله أعلم حيث يجعل رسالته (3).

Ahmad b. `Ali b. Ibrahim (ra) narrated to us. He said: My father narrated to us from his father Ibrahim b. Hashim from `Ali b. Mu`abbad from Wasil from `Abdullah b. Sinan from his father. He said: I was with Aba Ja`far Muhammad b. `Ali al-Baqir (as) when a man visited him from the Khawarij. So, he said: O Aba Ja`far! What do you worship? He said: Allah. He said: Did you see Him? He said: The vision of eyes cannot comprehend Him. Rather, it is the hearts that will see Him through the realities of faith. He is not known by analogies, nor is He comprehended by the senses, nor can He be compared to the people. He is described by His signs and He is known by His indicators. He does not oppress in His wisdom – surely, this is Allah, there is no deity except Him. So the man left while saying, “Allah is most knowing of where He places His message” (6:124).

Al-Amālī, The Forty-Seventh Assembly, Friday, the Fifth of the Month of Rabi` al-Awwal, 368 AH., Hadith #4


There is also Ziyarat Jamia Al-Kabir, where they are said to be "the place of the messengerhood/message" (madinal Resalah).

In verse 6:124 we can see the definition of Rasool is clear, it's where God places his message. There is similarly wording and it pertains to the contention of people of the Messengers.

We can say there is a contradiction in this regard in hadiths. So we have to turn else where then hadiths since there is a contradiction in the hadiths.

As for your definition, it's problematic clearly with Lut (a) for example stated to be a Messenger in Surah Poets "I am towards you a trustworthy Messenger". Lut (a) is a nephew of Ibrahim (a) and Quran says "so believed in him (Ibrahim) Lut (did)". And so Lut (a) would be akin to Ali (a) and Haroun (a) as far helper type and contemporary type. Haroun (a) is also stated to be a Messenger into two verses.

Also as far I'm aware, Musa (a) never emphasizes to Pharaoh nor Lut (a) to his people, that they are NABIS even though they are. This is because Nubuwa is purely about scripture and them being a channel. In case of Musa (a), he received scripture AFTER Pharaoh was destroyed while Quran says that Musa (a) was sent to Pharaoh as a Messenger. So this means messenger does not need scripture. It's the message, and it doesn't have to be direct words from God, as Musa (a) conveyed and paraphrased what he understood of God's message in his words. He wasn't channeling scripture at this point.

There are also many verses showing all that is upon the Messenger is the clear conveyance and we see in Surah Yaseen, three sent ones upon them is the clear conveyance, hence all three were Messengers.

There is also a line from Imam Ali (a) in Nahjul balagha,

أَمْ أَنْزَلَ اللهُ سُبْحَانَهُ دِيناً تَامّاً فَقَصَّرَ الرَّسُولُ (صلى الله عليه وآله) عَنْ تَبْلِيغِهِ وَأَدَائِهِ؟

This shows there's a difference from what God revealed of the religion and the Messenger (Mohammad) conveying it. This shows God revealed the religion, but the Messengerhood is about making sure a clear conveyance of it occurs.

And this is verified also in 5:67 which the message would be incomplete if Mohammad (s) didn't convey regarding Ali (a) at Ghadeer.

5:67 shows the messages of God aren't necessarily scripture. Actually, you never find a verse saying "upon the Nabi is only the conveyance", because the Nabi job is to channel scripture and establish it as a legacy and proof, while the job of a Messenger is to convey clear understanding. Since the Nabi job is more of God's role you never find "it's upon the Nabi only".

So on this definition, Nabis who are not Messengers and Imams who are not messengers, would be only if clear conveyance of the messages are established and do not need to be revived and established.

If there are disputes, then a Messenger is needed to be referred to, because the understanding is off and there is confusing or sleep of people regarding the reminders.

When the Messenger of God left the world, the Imams continued as guide among people.

It is like, a Surgeon did the surgery. Or a Doctor did operation. Once his job was done left. After that, the nurse continued doing the rest of work. That doesn't equate the Doctor with nurse.


Muhammad had a different function, a different station. When He left, Imams took His place, but with a different function and station. The function of Muhammad was to reveal a new Command from God. He established a new covenant. Imams were believers in Muhammad. Once Muhammad left, they continued interpretting Quran, thus promoting the teachings of Muhammad.
The Imams did not reveal more verses or Surrahs of Quran, to be called a Prophet. They did not reveal a new Law in addition to the Quran, so, they be called a Messenger. They were sent to people by God, telling people, we are sent by God to deliver a Message.
 

WonderingWorrier

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He contradicts a lot of the clear of the Quran

But contradiction is not out of place. Since the Bible contains verses that seem to directly contradict each other, and also the Quran has verses that contradict each other. It is only clear when the contradictions make sense.

Your reason of contradiction is not a truthful reason to dismiss Baha'u'llah.


for example, his theory of day of judgment
His theory being different than your theory is not a truthful reason for dismissal.


his statement Angels are saintly humans
Again, his theory being different than your theory is not a truthful reason for dismissal.

Do you know of this Bible verse: "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares".


and other things
What other things exactly?

I've made threads showing why his interpretation is impossible per Quran.

Did you ever say a single reason to dismiss Baha'u'llah that is based on verifiable facts?

Because it sounds like untruthful reasoning. Since you think that you have the right theory, then Baha'u'llah must be a liar.

Asking if you can explain why Baha'u'llah is an imposter is exactly the same as asking you to identify a messenger of Allah that is not mentioned in the Bible, Quran, or Hadith. It would have to be exactly the same answer. Because you cant identify an imposter, unless you can also identify other messengers.

So the truth is, if you can't explain an imposter then you can't explain true messengers. Because it would be exactly the same reason.
 

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When the Messenger of God left the world, the Imams continued as guide among people.

It is like, a Surgeon did the surgery. Or a Doctor did operation. Once his job was done left. After that, the nurse continued doing the rest of work. That doesn't equate the Doctor with nurse.


Muhammad had a different function, a different station. When He left, Imams took His place, but with a different function and station. The function of Muhammad was to reveal a new Command from God. He established a new covenant. Imams were believers in Muhammad. Once Muhammad left, they continued interpretting Quran, thus promoting the teachings of Muhammad.
The Imams did not reveal more verses or Surrahs of Quran, to be called a Prophet. They did not reveal a new Law in addition to the Quran, so, they be called a Messenger. They were sent to people by God, telling people, we are sent by God to deliver a Message.
But your definition, Lut (a) would not be a Messenger nor Haroun (a) nor Ismail (a) nor others mentioned, but they all are stated to be. There's nothing indicating messages are only about new commands. The function of Messengerhood in Quran seems to be about reminding humans of the clear truths in a clear way. This why it always emphasizes "the clear conveyance" in regards to that.
 
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InvestigateTruth

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But your definition, Lut (a) would not be a Messenger nor Haroun (a) nor Ismail (a) nor others mentioned, but they all are stated to be.
I already explained Isma'il and Haroun are not Messengers.

the Isma'il who is a Messenger, is another Isma'il, and Hadithes confirmed, as well as Al-Ghomi. If you don't want to accept that, there is nothing I can do.
Haroun is also not messenger as I quoted the Quran, saying Moses is a Messenger and Prophet, but Aaron is a Prophet. You should consider why in that verse He is not called a Messenger.

Aaron was appointed by Moses to speak on His behalf. God did not speak with Aaron directly. But He spoke to Moses directly. God spoke to Aaron through Moses.


There's nothing indicating messages are only about new commands. The function of Messengerhood in Quran seems to be about reminding humans of the clear truths in a clear way. This why it always emphasizes "the clear conveyance" in regards to that.

That is true too. But it is their main function to bring a new Revelation. They make a new Ummah.
Though, Some Messengers are from very old times. The Quran mentions their name very briefly. One is Isma'il, the Prophet Messenger. Another example is David, a Messenger, a Prophet. He was given Zabour. A new Revelation. But do not confuse this David, with King David, who wrote a Book called Psalms. Psalms is not the same as Zabour. It is a misunderstanding of the Muslims again.

For example Ali, had a book. It is called Nahjul balagha. But this Book is not a divine Revelation the same way that Quran is. Likewise King David have a book called Psalms. It is not a divine Revelation. If you read the book, you will see. So, just because, a chosen one of God, such as Ali, or King David wrote a book, does not mean they are Messengers. But, when a Prophet have a "Direct Revelation" in which God speaks to mankind, and commands them to do or not do things. This now, makes the Prophet, a Messenger of God.
 

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I already explained Isma'il and Haroun are not Messengers.
Okay we can agree to disagree on that. Haroun (a) is explicitly stated to be a Messenger, you talked about him being Mursal, but word is Rasool there in plural two. You simply spoke falsely about language there.

We discussed Ismail (a). Okay we can agree to disagree.

As for why the emphasis that Haroun (a) was made by God's mercy with Musa (a) a Nabi, can be to make us think of Nubuwa as a mercy. To single out that thought. Since in two other places it states Haroun (a) is a Rasool, there is no confusion in this regard. It should not be assumed the reason is to say he is not a Rasool.

How about Lut (a), you haven't responded to that yet.
 

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Though, Some Messengers are from very old times.
In Surah Baqara it is clear Samuel (a), Talut (a) and Dawood (a) are Messengers. We discussed this and other things like the uninterrupted succession of Messengers in Surah Momineen and verses to do with the covenant of Bani-Israel.

I don't see any verse that defines Resalah in the way you define it. I guess all that has to be said, has been said.

I believe the twelve Imams (a) are Messengers but not Nabis. We presented our definitions and argued.

The last thing to discuss is about Lut (a). After that, I don't think there is much room or we will just repeat.
 
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One hadith you might be interested in is comparing the Messengers of Bani-Israel with the family of Mohammad (s):

31ـ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ حَسَّانَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ عَمَّارِ بْنِ مَرْوَانَ عَنْ مُنَخَّلٍ عَنْ جَابِرٍ عَنْ ابي جعفر (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ أَ فَكُلَّما جاءَكُمْ مُحَمَّدٌ بِما لا تَهْوى‏ أَنْفُسُكُمُ بِمُوَالاةِ عَلِيٍّ فَ اسْتَكْبَرْتُمْ فَفَرِيقاً مِنْ آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَذَّبْتُمْ وَفَرِيقاً تَقْتُلُونَ.

31. Ahmad ibn Idris has narrated from Muhammad ibn Hassa’n from Muhammad ibn Ali from ‘Ammar ibn Marwan from Munakhkhal from Jabir from abu Ja‘far (a.s.) who said. "Every time there came to you a Mohammad by that which you souls did not desire of the Authority/Mastery/Guardianship of Ali so some of the family Mohammad you denied and some you killed".

Al-Kāfi - Volume 1, Enlightening Points Deduced from the Holy Quran about Leadership with Divine Authority), Hadith #31


I changed the translation because it was horrible.

The verse it's making analogy with is 2:87.
 

InvestigateTruth

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Okay we can agree to disagree on that. Haroun (a) is explicitly stated to be a Messenger, you talked about him being Mursal, but word is Rasool there in plural two. You simply spoke falsely about language there.

We discussed Ismail (a). Okay we can agree to disagree.

It is not about Mursal or Rasoul.

I already explained in post 30.


i quote again.

19:51 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Moses. He was truly a chosen man, and was a messenger and a prophet.
19:52 We called him from the right side of Mount Ṭûr, and drew him near, speaking ˹with him˺ directly.
19:53 And We appointed for him—out of Our grace—his brother, Aaron, as a prophet.
19:54 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Ishmael. He was truly a man of his word, and was a messenger and a prophet.
19:55 He used to urge his people to pray and give alms-tax. And his Lord was well pleased with him.
19:56 And mention in the Book ˹O Prophet, the story of˺ Enoch. He was surely a man of truth and a prophet.




The question is, why do you think, in the above verses, Moses and Ismael are called "a Messenger and a Prophet", but in just one verse after those, Aaron and Enoch are only called "a prophet"?

Is there any reason? How do we know?


As for why the emphasis that Haroun (a) was made by God's mercy with Musa (a) a Nabi, can be to make us think of Nubuwa as a mercy. To single out that thought. Since in two other places it states Haroun (a) is a Rasool, there is no confusion in this regard. It should not be assumed the reason is to say he is not a Rasool.

No where says, Aaron is a Rasool.

In that context, it says, "we are sent by your lord". It does not say God appointed Aaron as Messenger.

How about Lut (a), you haven't responded to that yet.

He is clearly a Messenger.

“I am to you a Messenger worthy of all trust."

Thus He was also a Prophet. As many Hadithes says:

كان ابراهيم و لوط نبيين (عليهما السلام) مرسلين منذرين، و كان لوط رجلا سخيا كريما يقرى الضيف إذا نزل به، و يحذره قومه.

"Ibrahim (Abraham) and Lut (Lot) were both prophets (peace be upon them), messengers, and warners. Lut was a generous and hospitable man who welcomed guests whenever they visited him, despite the warnings from his people"


The Prophethood of Lut, can be also understood from Surah Al-Anbiya (21:74):

وَلُوطًا آتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَنَجَّيْنَاهُ مِنَ الْقَرْيَةِ الَّتِي كَانَتْ تَعْمَلُ الْخَبَائِثَ ۗ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَوْمَ سَوْءٍ فَاسِقِينَ

"And to Lut, We gave wisdom and knowledge, and We delivered him from the city that practiced abominations. Indeed, they were a people of evil, defiantly disobedient."

Here, the term "آَتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا" (We gave him wisdom and knowledge) is often interpreted to mean that he was endowed with prophetic qualities.
 

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In that context, it says, "we are sent by your lord".
فَأْتِيَاهُ فَقُولَا إِنَّا رَسُولَا رَبِّكَ فَأَرْسِلْ مَعَنَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَلَا تُعَذِّبْهُمْ ۖ قَدْ جِئْنَاكَ بِآيَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَىٰ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الْهُدَىٰ | So approach him and say, ‘‘We are two Messengers of your Lord. Let the Children of Israel go with us, and do not torture them! We certainly bring you a sign from your Lord, and may peace be upon him who follows guidance! | Taa-Haa : 47

إِنَّا رَسُولَا

We are (two) Messengers. It's clear. It's hard arguing when you deny what Arabic words mean.
 
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