Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David

[Ingledsva]

The text of Habakkuk 313 identifies the PEOPLE as being the Anointed One of the Lord which means the Messiah. Now, if you read Deuteronomy 7:6, "For you are a People consecrated (aka anointed) to the Lord your God. Of all the peoples on earth, the Lord your God chose you to be His treasured People." That's enough for me.

Again - nothing in Hab 3, says the Jewish people are the messiah. Not even 13.

Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

The people being special doesn't make them the AWAITED Messiah.

segûllâh means special - not consecrated.

Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Also, many in Tanakh were consecrated, - obviously that didn't make them the awaited Messiah.

Even if the whole people were anointed, - that wouldn't make them the awaited Messiah.

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[Ingledsva]

Isaiah 52:1-9 is about the restoration in the Messianic age, not before it.

Isaiah 53:8 Hebrew Text Analysis Where?

Hello, My Bad! I forgot to put in the link - and I don't remember the exact page .

It was from the JEWS FOR JUDAISM site.

This is the verse from their PDF which I did save.

It is titled - Session #6 Isaiah 53 – The Suffering Servant

8 From dominion and judgment he was taken away, and his history - who is able to relate? For he was cut out of the land of the living, as a result of the transgression of my people, they were afflicted.

Every Jewish site that I have looked at, says the suffering servant is the Jewish people.

They also said that this is just 1 section, in a set of 4, in Isaiah, about the Jewish people being the suffering servant.

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[Ben Avraham]

Isa 53 is a Messianic prophecy. No Jew can fulfill that prophecy. Only Jesus died for man sins. He is the only One without spot or blemish.

Jesus did not die for the sins of any one else because he was a Jew and he would not contradict the Prophets that say no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:4.20; Jeremiah 31:30) Besides, Jesus was not without spot or blemish because, according to Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." And Jesus was a man upon earth. A second evidence that Jesus was not without spot or blemish is the fact that, if you read Mat. 23:13-33, Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not liked they did unto ourselves. Obviously, Jesus would not have liked to be addressed as a hypocrite and brood of vipers. That's what he did to his colleagues the Pharisees if we are to believe that text of Matthew. Besides, Jesus caused physical and financial damages to the money changers in that area before the Temple when he armed himself with a whip and disrupted their job which was done with the authorization of the High Priest. Besides, if Jesus was indeed charismatic, he could have solved that problem with a stern glance of his eyes which would be a much more civilized way. Bottom line is that Jesus was not without spot or blemish but a sinner just like we all are.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Again - nothing in Hab 3, says the Jewish people are the messiah. Not even 13. Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

The people being special doesn't make them the AWAITED Messiah. segûllâh means special - not consecrated.
Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. Also, many in Tanakh were consecrated, - obviously that didn't make them the awaited Messiah. Even if the whole people were anointed, - that wouldn't make them the awaited Messiah.

I think the problem between us is that I am reading from the JPS a Jewish translation of the Tanach. Probably, you must be reading from the Christian KJV,

 

[Ben Avraham]

As long as you reject the NT, you will never see the truth of Isa 53 and may other Messianic prophecies.

By the same token, as long as you insist on plagiarizing the Tanach, you will never see the Truth that Jesus never had any thing to do with the NT; and that he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

 

[omega2xx]

Jesus did not die for the sins of any one else because he was a Jew and he would not contradict the Prophets that say no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:4.20; Jeremiah 31:30) Besides, Jesus was not without spot or blemish because, according to Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." And Jesus was a man upon earth. A second evidence that Jesus was not without spot or blemish is the fact that, if you read Mat. 23:13-33, Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not liked they did unto ourselves. Obviously, Jesus would not have liked to be addressed as a hypocrite and brood of vipers. That's what he did to his colleagues the Pharisees if we are to believe that text of Matthew. Besides, Jesus caused physical and financial damages to the money changers in that area before the Temple when he armed himself with a whip and disrupted their job which was done with the authorization of the High Priest. Besides, if Jesus was indeed charismatic, he could have solved that problem with a stern glance of his eyes which would be a much more civilized way. Bottom line is that Jesus was not without spot or blemish but a sinner just like we all are.

Jesus only said what God told Him to say:

Jn 12:49 - For I do not speak on ,My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Also false teachings and hypocrisy need to be addressed,especially when it comes from religious leaders. If what God told Jesdus to say was true, and God can't lie, no commandment was broken.

By the same token, as long as you insist on plagiarizing the Tanach, you will never see the Truth that Jesus never had any thing to do with the NT; and that he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

 

[omega2xx]

By the same token, as long as you insist on plagiarizing the Tanach, you will never see the Truth that Jesus never had any thing to do with the NT; and that he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

WE use the same OT, you do, so where is the plagiarizing?

You are right, it was God, not Jesus who inspired the NT and you have no idea what Jesus dreamed or did not dream.

 

[Ben Avraham]

WE use the same OT, you do, so where is the plagiarizing?

You are right, it was God, not Jesus who inspired the NT and you have no idea what Jesus dreamed or did not dream.

Let me tell you something Omega, when Jesus was born there was no such a thing as the NT. Even Paul, the main author of the NT was not yet alive. Regarding you statement that you use the same OT, what's that supposed to mean, that you have the authority to vandalize the Tanach to fit it according to the NT? Please, you are coming too hard with your assumptions! Where on earth a Jew could be a demigod if you read Mat. 1:18? If you are using the Tanach, how can you fit it with Mat. 1:18? If the dead could hear what you have said, Jesus would turn on the grave. How could God inspire the Hellenists who wrote the gospels to teach against His own Prophets? Not likely!

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jesus only said what God told Him to say:

Jn 12:49 - For I do not speak on ,My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Also false teachings and hypocrisy need to be addressed,especially when it comes from religious leaders. If what God told Jesdus to say was true, and God can't lie, no commandment was broken.

I know! And a good evidence of that is found in Luke 16:29-31 when Jesus said that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Do you know why Jesus said that, because he needed to convey the message that he had not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill and confirm every commandment down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

 

[omega2xx]

Let me tell you something Omega, when Jesus was born there was no such a thing as the NT. Even Paul, the main author of the NT was not yet alive. Regarding you statement that you use the same OT, what's that supposed to mean, that you have the authority to vandalize the Tanach to fit it according to the NT? Please, you are coming too hard with your assumptions! Where on earth a Jew could be a demigod if you read Mat. 1:18? If you are using the Tanach, how can you fit it with Mat. 1:18? If the dead could hear what you have said, Jesus would turn on the grave. How could God inspire the Hellenists who wrote the gospels to teach against His own Prophets? Not likely!

Let me tell you something BA, God inspired the whole Bib e. If you don't believe that, you will never understand either testament.

Not only are you the one vandalizing the OT, you are adding to it and we know what God said about that.

I don't use the Tenach, I use God's inspired word.

FYI Jesus in not in His grave today. Haven't you heard the latest---up from the grave He arose.

 

[omega2xx]

I know! And a good evidence of that is found in Luke 16:29-31 when Jesus said that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Do you know why Jesus said that, because he needed to convey the message that he had not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill and confirm every commandment down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

He fulfilled the law, That is how it was abolished as the means of getting into the next l ife.

 

[Ben Avraham]

He fulfilled the law, That is how it was abolished as the means of getting into the next l ife.

You did not read the text I gave you in Mat. 5:17-19. Jesus made it very clear that the Law would not end until heaven and earth passed away. To this day that hasn't happen yet. So, the Law stands. The Law was abolished by Paul. If you take his word at face value, it means that, for you, Paul was the master and Jesus the servant. Does it make sense? I hope not!

 

[Ben Avraham]

Let me tell you something BA, God inspired the whole Bib e. If you don't believe that, you will never understand either testament.

Not only are you the one vandalizing the OT, you are adding to it and we know what God said about that.

I don't use the Tenach, I use God's inspired word.

FYI Jesus in not in His grave today. Haven't you heard the latest---up from the grave He arose.

Against his own gospel aka the Tanach? Not likely. Omega, I am sorry that you are demonstrating a deep feeling of frustration. I am not of the religious kind to get afraid of threats. I know what I am doing and discussing. I bring in my mind the knowledge of both the Tanach and the NT. God could not have inspired the NT. It would be an act against the Faith of Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23

 

[omega2xx]

You did not read the text I gave you in Mat. 5:17-19. Jesus made it very clear that the Law would not end until heaven and earth passed away. To this day that hasn't happen yet. So, the Law stands. The Law was abolished by Paul. If you take his word at face value, it means that, for you, Paul was the master and Jesus the servant. Does it make sense? I hope not!

That only applies to the moral law. Paul does not have the authority or the power to abolish the law.

 

[omega2xx]

Against his own gospel aka the Tanach? Not likely. Omega, I am sorry that you are demonstrating a deep feeling of frustration. I am not of the religious kind to get afraid of threats. I know what I am doing and discussing. I bring in my mind the knowledge of both the Tanach and the NT. God could not have inspired the NT. It would be an act against the Faith of Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23

Prov 16:18

 

[Ingledsva]

I think the problem between us is that I am reading from the JPS a Jewish translation of the Tanach. Probably, you must be reading from the Christian KJV,

KJV - Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Here is the JPS - basic same.

Deu 7:6 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be His own treasure, out of all peoples that are upon the face of the earth.

Also - that Lord thy God is actually YHVH Elohiym.

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[Ben Avraham]

KJV - Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Here is the JPS - basic same. Deu 7:6 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be His own treasure, out of all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. Also - that Lord thy God is actually YHVH Elohiym.

So, what! Do you have a problem with being Israel chosen to be HaShem's own treasure out of all peoples upon the face of the earth? I hope not!

 

[Ben Avraham]

Prov 16:18

As a matter of fact, I am indeed proud to have been chosen by HaShem from among all the other nations in the world.
Arrogance though, could not come from spiritual pride. Usually, the source of arrogance is in the grudge of the one being left out.

 

[Ben Avraham]

That only applies to the moral law. Paul does not have the authority or the power to abolish the law.

The moral Law is codified in the Decalog. It was the Decalog that Paul meant to have released from if you read Romans 7:1-7. Where is it written "Thou shall not covet" if not in the Decalog? So, Paul meant the moral Law.

 

[Ingledsva]

So, what! Do you have a problem with being Israel chosen to be HaShem's own treasure out of all peoples upon the face of the earth? I hope not!

What? Where did that come from?

You are trying to prove the Jewish people are the Messiah.

But you haven't done so with your choice of verses.

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