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Metaphysical-Physicalism.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
When the student ended by asking Chomsky if he was ok with the idea that the answer to these questions might never be known, Chomsky responded that he didn't see that he had a choice in the matter.

It seems to me that belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo. It allows the vast majority of human beings to use the divine spirit God gave them while treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally.

If it can be shown that they're not, then all persons would have to rise to the level of understanding possessed by Einstein and Chomsky (Popper too), which would, if nothing else, cause severe epistemological discomfort for those who prefer to lie in the crib and watch the dangling mobile with a ga ga, and a goo goo, now and then.

Most of humanity seems to be engulfed in something like a metaphysical-physicalism, which is, naturally, a tautological oxymoron.



John
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It seems to me that belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo. It allows the vast majority of human beings to use the divine spirit God gave them while treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally.

If it can be shown that they're not, then all persons would have to rise to the level of understanding possessed by Einstein and Chomsky (Popper too), which would, if nothing else, cause severe epistemological discomfort for those who prefer to lie in the crib and watch the dangling mobile with a ga ga, and a goo goo, now and then.

Most of humanity seems to be engulfed in something like a metaphysical-physicalism, which is, naturally, a tautological oxymoron.



John

Ok, lets assume, since we have no other knowledge of how the mobile dangles above us that God is holding it overhead.

What knowledge does this assumption give us about the entity that is capable of doing so?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It seems to me that belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo. It allows the vast majority of human beings to use the divine spirit God gave them while treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally.

If it can be shown that they're not, then all persons would have to rise to the level of understanding possessed by Einstein and Chomsky (Popper too), which would, if nothing else, cause severe epistemological discomfort for those who prefer to lie in the crib and watch the dangling mobile with a ga ga, and a goo goo, now and then.

Most of humanity seems to be engulfed in something like a metaphysical-physicalism, which is, naturally, a tautological oxymoron.



John

You're on a higher intellectual and knowledge level than I am I think so is it possible to explain what you are saying in a more simple way for someone like me to understand.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm with Brian. I don't understand what you mean entirely. I'll do my best.

It seems to me that belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo. It allows the vast majority of human beings to use the divine spirit God gave them while treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally.

By the 'divine spirit God gave them'/'abilities' do you mean simple logic and reasoning? If so, can you explain why they're supernatural?

If it can be shown that they're not, then all persons would have to rise to the level of understanding possessed by Einstein and Chomsky (Popper too), which would, if nothing else, cause severe epistemological discomfort for those who prefer to lie in the crib and watch the dangling mobile with a ga ga, and a goo goo, now and then.
I don't see why everyone would have to rise beyond their comfort zone if they don't want to. There are many people that don't even consider other ontological principles outside of "things exist, nothing further is needed".

Most of humanity seems to be engulfed in something like a metaphysical-physicalism, which is, naturally, a tautological oxymoron.
What do you mean by this?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It seems to me that belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo.
Inductive logic has its limitations, and anyone can use it, even if they assume gods exist.

It allows the vast majority of human beings to use the divine spirit God gave them while treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally.
Assuming a divine spirit exists, and assuming any sort of god exists outside of human imagination.

If it can be shown that they're not, then all persons would have to rise to the level of understanding possessed by Einstein and Chomsky (Popper too), which would, if nothing else, cause severe epistemological discomfort for those who prefer to lie in the crib and watch the dangling mobile with a ga ga, and a goo goo, now and then.
So the topic is intelligence? Who has it. Who doesn't.

Most of humanity seems to be engulfed in something like a metaphysical-physicalism, which is, naturally, a tautological oxymoron.
Is this a confession?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
One can philosophically argue about physicalism all day but to me what seals the deal against physicalism is the cumulative evidence from the so-called paranormal/spiritual. No way can so many things be explained under a physicalist paradigm.

A person like me needs physical evidence that trumps an endless philosophical debate.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
One can philosophically argue about physicalism all day but to me what seals the deal against physicalism is the cumulative evidence from the so-called paranormal/spiritual. No way can so many things be explained under a physicalist paradigm.

A person like me needs physical evidence that trumps an endless philosophical debate.

Physicalism in years past had a much larger gap to cross. That gap has narrowed quite a bit in the last 100 years.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Physicalism in years past had a much larger gap to cross. That gap has narrowed quite a bit in the last 100 years.
Not sure I follow. I think the gap has actually widened with the ever increasing sophistication of paranormal and parapsychological studies. I even see double-blind controlled experiments giving results that are seemingly impossible to explain under a physicalist model.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo.

What is the belief in inductive logic? Can one not believe in it? One doesn't even need to know what it is to derive generalizations inductively from experience. My dogs do it, as they learn to associate sights and sounds with what has followed them in the past and will therefore likely expect the same relationships to persist in the future. That's how they learned what the doorbell means.

And what is an atheistic placebo? Is a sham atheistic treatment?

Other have already noted that your use of language isn't descriptive enough, and none of us seem to know what you are saying or looking for here. I can't even begin to respond to that comment except in the manner I have - what does it mean? Use more words and flesh out your ideas in paragraphs that don't skimp on description, definition, or explanation as I have just done here. There is nothing about these words that isn't clear.

Let's work on your OP, since there really isn't anything more to do until we know what you are saying.

It allows the vast majority of human beings to use the divine spirit God gave them while treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally.

Once again, what does this mean? How does one use a divine spirit? I'm an atheist. Are you saying I do that? If so, what are you saying I'm doing? Am I getting that divine spirit to help me?

And what is this other thing you say I might be doing at the same time. What would be an example of something a person like me might have done that could be described as, "treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally." Did you mean innately or intuitively rather than inductively?

Have you never been in a position where it is important that you are understood clearly? How did you speak or write then? I'm a retired clinical physician, and it was very important that patients understood what was said to them. Imagine using language like atheistic placebo or abilities circumscribed. Fauci has this problem, probably because he hasn't treated a patient in decades. I listened to him on TV this week, and he used three technical words in one sentence that most listeners wouldn't understand.

If it can be shown that they're not, then all persons would have to rise to the level of understanding possessed by Einstein and Chomsky (Popper too), which would, if nothing else, cause severe epistemological discomfort for those who prefer to lie in the crib and watch the dangling mobile with a ga ga, and a goo goo, now and then.

Now Einstein, Chomsky, and Popper appear, seemingly gratuitously. It reminds me of the lyrics to Dylan's Desolation row, which is just as opaque:

Cinderella, she seems so easy, "It takes one to know one, " she smiles
And puts her hands in her back pockets Bette Davis style
And in comes Romeo, he's moaning. "You Belong to Me I Believe"
And someone says, "You're in the wrong place, my friend, you'd better leave

Einstein, disguised as Robin Hood with his memories in a trunk
Passed this way an hour ago with his friend, a jealous monk"

Exactly what is Dylan saying? Nothing, really. It's poetry, and you are expected to experience it like a verbal Rorschach test, where you insert some of your own imagination to give these sentences some meaning, some relevant narrative. Likewise with your comment. I have to guess why you mentioned those names and what you think they did or do that is relavent to what came before and after those names.

Most of humanity seems to be engulfed in something like a metaphysical-physicalism, which is, naturally, a tautological oxymoron.

It's poetry time again. I have no idea what you are trying to tell us. A tautology is not an oxymoron (they are actually kind of opposite, one using identity and the other apparent contradiction), and how does metaphysical realism relate to what has come before it?

My advice if you seek more clarity in your writing is to stick with smaller, less technical words in full sentences that you would expect children to understand, and build up from there using more vocabulary and more complicated sentences, checking to see that you have included everything necessary to understand you.

So what do you think about trying to rewrite the OP together? I'm sure that I can help once I know what you want to communicate. And you can compare the starting and ending product to see the difference.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Not sure I follow. I think the gap has actually widened with the ever increasing sophistication of paranormal and parapsychological studies. I even see double-blind controlled experiments giving results that are seemingly impossible to explain under a physicalist model.

Ok, what do you see as being unanswered?
To me maybe one are two big ones and several smaller question needing to be answered.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
What is the belief in inductive logic? Can one not believe in it? One doesn't even need to know what it is to derive generalizations inductively from experience. My dogs do it, as they learn to associate sights and sounds with what has followed them in the past and will therefore likely expect the same relationships to persist in the future. That's how they learned what the doorbell means.

And what is an atheistic placebo? Is a sham atheistic treatment?

Other have already noted that your use of language isn't descriptive enough, and none of us seem to know what you are saying or looking for here. I can't even begin to respond to that comment except in the manner I have - what does it mean? Use more words and flesh out your ideas in paragraphs that don't skimp on description, definition, or explanation as I have just done here. There is nothing about these words that isn't clear.

Let's work on your OP, since there really isn't anything more to do until we know what you are saying.



Once again, what does this mean? How does one use a divine spirit? I'm an atheist. Are you saying I do that? If so, what are you saying I'm doing? Am I getting that divine spirit to help me?

And what is this other thing you say I might be doing at the same time. What would be an example of something a person like me might have done that could be described as, "treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally." Did you mean innately or intuitively rather than inductively?

Have you never been in a position where it is important that you are understood clearly? How did you speak or write then? I'm a retired clinical physician, and it was very important that patients understood what was said to them. Imagine using language like atheistic placebo or abilities circumscribed. Fauci has this problem, probably because he hasn't treated a patient in decades. I listened to him on TV this week, and he used three technical words in one sentence that most listeners wouldn't understand.



Now Einstein, Chomsky, and Popper appear, seemingly gratuitously. It reminds me of the lyrics to Dylan's Desolation row, which is just as opaque:

Cinderella, she seems so easy, "It takes one to know one, " she smiles
And puts her hands in her back pockets Bette Davis style
And in comes Romeo, he's moaning. "You Belong to Me I Believe"
And someone says, "You're in the wrong place, my friend, you'd better leave

Einstein, disguised as Robin Hood with his memories in a trunk
Passed this way an hour ago with his friend, a jealous monk"

Exactly what is Dylan saying? Nothing, really. It's poetry, and you are expected to experience it like a verbal Rorschach test, where you insert some of your own imagination to give these sentences some meaning, some relevant narrative. Likewise with your comment. I have to guess why you mentioned those names and what you think they did or do that is relavent to what came before and after those names.



It's poetry time again. I have no idea what you are trying to tell us. A tautology is not an oxymoron (they are actually kind of opposite, one using identity and the other apparent contradiction), and how does metaphysical realism relate to what has come before it?

My advice if you seek more clarity in your writing is to stick with smaller, less technical words in full sentences that you would expect children to understand, and build up from there using more vocabulary and more complicated sentences, checking to see that you have included everything necessary to understand you.

So what do you think about trying to rewrite the OP together? I'm sure that I can help once I know what you want to communicate. And you can compare the starting and ending product to see the difference.

Does absolute 'truth' exist for an atheist?
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
It seems to me that belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo. It allows the vast majority of human beings to use the divine spirit God gave them while treating the abilities circumscribed by that divine spirit as though they're produced inductively --- naturally.

If it can be shown that they're not, then all persons would have to rise to the level of understanding possessed by Einstein and Chomsky (Popper too), which would, if nothing else, cause severe epistemological discomfort for those who prefer to lie in the crib and watch the dangling mobile with a ga ga, and a goo goo, now and then.

Most of humanity seems to be engulfed in something like a metaphysical-physicalism, which is, naturally, a tautological oxymoron.



John

Induction is a cognitive heuristic that we and many other animal species use to make choices and behavioral decisions. It's a beneficial tendency because it grants us a mental model that corresponds to reality much more often than not. For that reason, it has persisted as a feature of biological brains over the course of evolution. We can test and demonstrate the accuracy (and benefit) of induction. This isn't difficult. There is no need to call this a "placebo" or a subconscious denial of magic spirits.

I'm not sure what you mean by "If it can be shown that they're not." What do you mean by "it" and "they"?

I know of very, very few atheists who believe in "metaphysical physicalism," which only sounds like an oxymoron for etymological reasons in the way you are choosing to describe it. It is essentially the belief in the absolute claim that "natural physical things are all that exist in reality." Another way of describing the same concept is "philosophical naturalism," or "ontological naturalism."

Virtually all atheists are uncomfortable making absolute claims about the fundamental nature of reality, because we don't currently appear to have any grounds for this kind of metaphysical knowledge. It is all merely speculative, and unjustifiable with our current tools of inquiry.

To be a philosophical naturalist is almost as irrational as believing a god exists. I say "almost" because at least we can demonstrate that nature does exist. To go farther and say it is all that exists or can exist is not supported by any evidence. So yes, I would experience epistemological discomfort if I, as an atheist, had to try and believe this. That's why I'm a methodological naturalist, which involves tentative conclusions based on current available tools and evidence.

Your entire post is basically a straw man. "Look at this thing that an imaginary atheist believes. It's just as irrational as supernatural beliefs. Boy, do atheists have a bad epistemology!" In actuality, you're projecting your own epistemological failures onto us, then criticizing these failures. You're only harming yourself here.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Ok, what do you see as being unanswered?
To me maybe one are two big ones and several smaller question needing to be answered.
If I am understanding you one issue would be the expression of consciousness without even a physical brain like spirit communication of information not known to the receiver. Or physical paranormal phenomena that seems to have a purpose but no physical cause.

These things strongly suggest causes not explainable in a physicalist model of reality.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
belief in inductive logic is something like an atheistic placebo.

I don't "believe" in inductive logic. I accept inductive logic as a valid form of logic that is necessary in scientific research. And I know it has proven its value when properly applied.

In the example from the linked site, if research determines that 100 dogs have fleas, then there's a probability that all dogs have fleas. To state that 100 dogs have fleas so all dogs have fleas is a logical fallacy. Advantages and Disadvantages of Inductive Reasoning
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
Not sure I follow. I think the gap has actually widened with the ever increasing sophistication of paranormal and parapsychological studies. I even see double-blind controlled experiments giving results that are seemingly impossible to explain under a physicalist model.

You should really look into what the "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy is, and its various permutations. Your comment has the classic structure of this fallacy, and you should try to understand how and why the fact that a model can't explain something entirely doesn't mean another, unevidenced proposition is therefore given more weight. Claims need their own evidence, because an apparent imperfection in another claim is not supporting evidence for your speculative claim.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You should really look into what the "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy is, and its various permutations. Your comment has the classic structure of this fallacy, and you should try to understand how and why the fact that a model can't explain something entirely doesn't mean another, unevidenced proposition is therefore given more weight. Claims need their own evidence, because an apparent imperfection in another claim is not supporting evidence for your speculative claim.
I actually do understand all that and form my best 'all things considered' opinion without claiming proof. I believe the so-called paranormal exists and it strongly suggests the physicalist paradigm is insufficient.
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
Now Einstein, Chomsky, and Popper appear, seemingly gratuitously. It reminds me of the lyrics to Dylan's Desolation row, which is just as opaque:

Cinderella, she seems so easy, "It takes one to know one, " she smiles
And puts her hands in her back pockets Bette Davis style
And in comes Romeo, he's moaning. "You Belong to Me I Believe"
And someone says, "You're in the wrong place, my friend, you'd better leave

Einstein, disguised as Robin Hood with his memories in a trunk
Passed this way an hour ago with his friend, a jealous monk"

Exactly what is Dylan saying? Nothing, really. It's poetry, and you are expected to experience it like a verbal Rorschach test, where you insert some of your own imagination to give these sentences some meaning, some relevant narrative. Likewise with your comment. I have to guess why you mentioned those names and what you think they did or do that is relavent to what came before and after those names.

Here's a quote by philosopher Stephen Law which seems to fit the situation you're describing:

"Sadly, some corners of academia are dominated by intellectuals whose writing amounts to little more than Pseudoprofundity. Strip away the academic jargon and pseudoscientific references from their impressive sounding pronouncements, and you'll find there's precious little left. Those thinkers often referred to as “postmodern” include more than their fair share of such jargon-fueled wafflers. So easy is it, in fact, to produce convincing-looking postmodern gobbledygook that a wag called Andrew Bulhak constructed a computer program that will write your own “postmodern” essay, complete with references. http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/. I just did and received an essay that begins:

The primary theme of Cameron's model of neostructural Marxism is the common ground between society and culture. Sontag's analysis of Debordist situation states that society has objective value. However, Marx promotes the use of Marxist socialism to analyse class. Debordist situation holds that the goal of the observer is deconstruction. Therefore, the subject is interpolated into a neostructural Marxism that includes art as a paradox. Several materialisms concerning semanticist subdialectic theory may be found.
This may be nonsense, but it makes scarcely less sense than the real thing. Possibly more." (Believing Bull****, p.139)​
 
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AlexanderG

Active Member
Sadly, some corners of academia are dominated by intellectuals whose writing amounts to little more than Pseudoprofundity. Strip away the academic jargon and pseudoscientific references from their impressive sounding pronouncements, and you'll find there's precious little left.

Those thinkers often referred to as “postmodern” include more than their fair share of such jargon-fueled wafflers. So easy is it, in fact, to produce convincing-looking postmodern gobbledygook that a wag called Andrew Bulhak constructed a computer program that will write your own “postmodern” essay, complete with references. http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/. I just did and received an essay that begins:

The primary theme of Cameron's model of neostructural Marxism is the common ground between society and culture. Sontag's analysis of Debordist situation states that society has objective value. However, Marx promotes the use of Marxist socialism to analyse class. Debordist situation holds that the goal of the observer is deconstruction. Therefore, the subject is interpolated into a neostructural Marxism that includes art as a paradox. Several materialisms concerning semanticist subdialectic theory may be found.
This may be nonsense, but it makes scarcely less sense than the real thing. Possibly more.

That's pretty hilarious. It reminds me of the Jordan Peterson word-salad generator: Wisdom of Peterson

I hit the button and got, "The unexplainable nurtures archetypal destiny, roughly speaking!" which was pretty spot-on.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's pretty hilarious. It reminds me of the Jordan Peterson word-salad generator: Wisdom of Peterson

I hit the button and got, "The unexplainable nurtures archetypal destiny, roughly speaking!" which was pretty spot-on.

Have you seen the Deepak Chopra wisdom generator? Perfect for horoscopes and Chinese fortune cookies:

"Good health is rooted in dimensionless actions"
"The key to joy creates innumerable reality"
"God transforms subjective balance"
"Your movement is the continuity of cosmic energy"
"Innocence is reborn in your own creativity"

Random Deepak Chopra Quote Generator
 
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