Mind/Body Distinctness

[Fluffy]

Is the mind distinct from the body?

Either way, how can we tell?

If the two are identical, is the body an expression of the mind or is the mind an expression of the body?

 

[Storm]

I think it's a spectrum.

 

[Fluffy]

Heya storm,
I've never heard that model used before. What do you mean by a spectrum?

 

[Storm]

Divine matter -> biochemistry -> cells -> organs -> brain -> psyche -> spirit -> rhys (divine consciousness).

Everything from biochemical processes to spirit is the seeming, and ultimately mortal. Only matter and rhys continue after death.

Spirit vs. psyche:
The psyche is intimately connected to the brain. Our emotions, memories, speech patterns, and unconscious habits. It's only slightly less biological than spiritual. Drugs can affect it, as can injury. Likewise, it can affect the body emotional trauma translating as physical symptoms, or the placebo effect.

The spirit, however, is something else. Our ideals, reason, willpower, personality traits. You can't give someone a pill to make them a Democrat, or change their sexual orientation. The spirit is still part of the seeming, and therefore mortal and connected to biology, but much less so than the psyche.

 

[Willamena]

Is the mind distinct from the body?

Yes, the mind is made distinct from the body as being a separate "thing" symbol.

Either way, how can we tell?

We can tell them apart (make them distinct) by characteristics that are assigned as unique to each.

If the two are identical, is the body an expression of the mind or is the mind an expression of the body?

If the body is an expression of the mind, or the mind an expression of the body, then then cannot be identical. To be identical is to be the same thing.

 

[Willamena]

Divine matter -> biochemistry -> cells -> organs -> brain -> psyche -> spirit -> rhys (divine consciousness).

Everything from biochemical processes to spirit is the seeming, and ultimately mortal. Only matter and rhys continue after death.

I can see that, from a "thingie" perspective. In astrology we have a saying: everything is appearances.

I don't know what rhys is, though. No doubt something yet to be something, and distinct.

 

[Storm]

I can see that, from a "thingie" perspective. In astrology we have a saying: everything is appearances.

I don't know what rhys is, though. No doubt something yet to be something.

Divine consciousness. Sorry, I pulled the spectrum description from another site where I use my own terminology.

 

[YmirGF]

Is the mind distinct from the body?

Either way, how can we tell?

If the two are identical, is the body an expression of the mind or is the mind an expression of the body?

Well, from one fool to another... hehehe.

The "mind" imho is a part of the body's matrix, if you will. Imho, what we call the "mind" is simply the most superficial layers of the "soul/entity/personality energy essence" that is part and parcel of the physical body. Following this through, our normal "mind" is the lens of our consciousness, a physically focused filtering mechanism. Normally one does not sense the difference between so-called "consciousness" and what we call the "mind".

The easiest way to think of the difference and only for the sake of the example, I might stress, is that the human mind is like a common CPU found in your average desktop computer. whereas "consciousness" is like a much larger system or mainframe. One has much more processing "power" than the other although they both intuit data in similar ways. I'm sorry, I am not sure how else to put it save only that "consciousness" experiences itself in multiple dimensions of creativty whereas the "mind" is normally only conscious of four dimensions which allows it to perceive our reality in meaningful terms.

Well, I could be wrong.

 

[sandandfoam]

Is the mind distinct from the body?

I like Spinoza's idea that mind and body are the one thing, two ways of perceiving the same thing, but the one thing.

If the two are identical, is the body an expression of the mind or is the mind an expression of the body?

Or are both expressions of reality?

Either way, how can we tell?

All we can do is test such ideas with our own reason

 

[Willamena]

I like Spinoza's idea that mind and body are the one thing, two ways of perceiving the same thing, but the one thing.

But would "two ways of perceiving" not be two things? For instance, if I perceive your reply as a complement, and yet I perceive it as an insult, wouldn't that be two things?

 

[sandandfoam]

But would "two ways of perceiving" not be two things? For instance, if I perceive your reply as a complement, and yet I perceive it as an insult, wouldn't that be two things?

It would be two things, two ways of perceiving a single thing. There can be many ways of perceiving a single thing?

 

[eudaimonia]

If the two are identical, is the body an expression of the mind or is the mind an expression of the body?

I agree with a form of dual-aspect theory that states that both mind and body are aspects of a single human nature. I.e. what we view as mental experiences and as brain events are two aspects of the same process, and really constitute two vantagepoints on the same thing, much as with the blind men and the elephant.

Two answer your question directly, the mind is not an expression of the body, nor is the body an expression of the mind, but they are both expressions of our nature as individuals.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Willamena]

It would be two things, two ways of perceiving a single thing. There can be many ways of perceiving a single thing?

Heh, I guess I don't get what Spinoza is saying then.

 

[michel]

Well, from one fool to another... hehehe.

The "mind" imho is a part of the body's matrix, if you will. Imho, what we call the "mind" is simply the most superficial layers of the "soul/entity/personality energy essence" that is part and parcel of the physical body. Following this through, our normal "mind" is the lens of our consciousness, a physically focused filtering mechanism. Normally one does not sense the difference between so-called "consciousness" and what we call the "mind".

The easiest way to think of the difference and only for the sake of the example, I might stress, is that the human mind is like a common CPU found in your average desktop computer. whereas "consciousness" is like a much larger system or mainframe. One has much more processing "power" than the other although they both intuit data in similar ways. I'm sorry, I am not sure how else to put it save only that "consciousness" experiences itself in multiple dimensions of creativty whereas the "mind" is normally only conscious of four dimensions which allows it to perceive our reality in meaningful terms.

Well, I could be wrong.

I'd be wrong as well then.

 

[Fluffy]

Heya Storm,

Divine matter -> biochemistry -> cells -> organs -> brain -> psyche -> spirit -> rhys (divine consciousness).

I don't really understand the hierarchy. As far as I understand it, biochemistry is a set of physical processes. Organs seems to be simply lots of cells and the brain an example of a organ.

This debate typically centres on whether the mind and body are different substances. For example, whilst I know there is a difference between a cup and a rock, they appear to be formed from the same type of thing. The mind, on the other hand, seems to have different properties that are not shared by anything physical.

Everything from biochemical processes to spirit is the seeming, and ultimately mortal. Only matter and rhys continue after death.

Spirit vs. psyche:
The psyche is intimately connected to the brain. Our emotions, memories, speech patterns, and unconscious habits. It's only slightly less biological than spiritual. Drugs can affect it, as can injury. Likewise, it can affect the body emotional trauma translating as physical symptoms, or the placebo effect.

The spirit, however, is something else. Our ideals, reason, willpower, personality traits. You can't give someone a pill to make them a Democrat, or change their sexual orientation. The spirit is still part of the seeming, and therefore mortal and connected to biology, but much less so than the psyche.

But it seems like there are various illnesses and drugs that can affect our spirit. If I can manipulate the brain to change ideals, reason, willpower and personality traits then surely these are all the results of physical things?

Heya Willamena,

Yes, the mind is made distinct from the body as being a separate "thing" symbol.

What is a "'thing' symbol"?

We can tell them apart (make them distinct) by characteristics that are assigned as unique to each.

If I ask you to look at the same thing from two different perspectives but tell you that you have actually viewed two separate objects then you will believe you have viewed two distinct objects. When I reveal to you the truth, you will then see that the two objects were not distinct at all and it was simply that your understanding was incomplete.

It might be that this is the case for the body and the mind.

If the body is an expression of the mind, or the mind an expression of the body, then then cannot be identical. To be identical is to be the same thing.

What I meant by this is whether the mind was non-existent but simply the result of the brain reflecting upon itself or whether the brain was non-existent but simply the result of the mind reflecting upon itself.

Hello fellow fool ,

I'm sorry, I am not sure how else to put it save only that "consciousness" experiences itself in multiple dimensions of creativty whereas the "mind" is normally only conscious of four dimensions which allows it to perceive our reality in meaningful terms.

That sounds quite interesting. However, it seems like through the advancement of science, we might be able to expand the mind beyond 4 dimensions and so the distinctness of mind and conciousness seems to be essentially contingent.

But would "two ways of perceiving" not be two things? For instance, if I perceive your reply as a complement, and yet I perceive it as an insult, wouldn't that be two things?

So you are saying:
I perceive A to have property p
I perceive A to have property q
Therefore A is distinct from A?

That would break logical laws.

Would it not be more reasonable to say
I perceive A to have property p
I perceive A to have property q
Therefore A has both property p and property q

 

[Storm]

Heya Storm,

I don't really understand the hierarchy.

Not a hierarchy, just a spectrum of interaction. I knew I should have edited it to make the arrows go both ways.

As far as I understand it, biochemistry is a set of physical processes. Organs seems to be simply lots of cells and the brain an example of a organ.

Yes.... I don't understand the question. Is there a question?

This debate typically centres on whether the mind and body are different substances.

My stance is that they're different points on a spectrum of interaction between two different substances. (Three, actually: it's life force that binds consciousness to matter.) Neither mind nor body is purely matter or purely consciousness.

But it seems like there are various illnesses and drugs that can affect our spirit.

I'm not aware of any, so examples would help, but let's say you're right. The spirit is still just a point on the spectrum, affected by the physical, just not to the same extent as the psyche.

If I can manipulate the brain to change ideals, reason, willpower and personality traits then surely these are all the results of physical things?

I'm not denying the influence of the physical, just its primacy.

 

[YmirGF]

Hello fellow fool ,
That sounds quite interesting. However, it seems like through the advancement of science, we might be able to expand the mind beyond 4 dimensions and so the distinctness of mind and conciousness seems to be essentially contingent.

I reread that last line this morning and I have to admit I wasn't too happy with it. I would like to go on record as saying that regardless of how many "dimensions" science is able to ascribe to the "mind", in theory, they would never be able to approach the raw ability of "consciousness". Yes, I am creating a division here, but it needs to be underscored as I experience consciousness quite independantly from the body... ie. consciousness can exist quite happily without a body however a body does not last very long (in any meaningful way) without consciousness.

My last point is that the human "mind" is patterned after the "inherent psychological organization" within consciousness. The two are not the same thing, but the former is a reflection of the latter and IS tied to the physical body.

Pity I cannot simply "will you towards Oneness" (as of yet, at least *giggle*) as then you would understand exactly what I am meaning.

 

[sandandfoam]

Heh, I guess I don't get what Spinoza is saying then.

I am not sure that I get him as I've only read him and never discussed him, if you see a weakness in what I understand him to be saying it would help improve my understanding if you'd point it up to me.

 

[Kungfuzed]

Is the mind distinct from the body?

Either way, how can we tell?

If the two are identical, is the body an expression of the mind or is the mind an expression of the body?

The mind is the function of the brain, the mind is what the brain does. There can be no mind without a brain, but there can be a brain without a mind, but then it's brain dead.

 

[sandandfoam]

There can be no mind without a brain.

How do you know?