Miracles are evidence there is no God(s)

[Daniel Nicholson]

Many religions worships there own God(s) and deny the existence of other Gods. However, miracles happen to people of many different faiths. From this we can conclude that either:

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

With more education, technological advances, communication, etc. I think number four is becoming more and more likely.

Edit 2:
To clarify, I'm saying that many religions claim to worship an intervening God(s) that performs miracles, and some of those religions also claim that all other Gods and religions are false. Yet all those types of religions have their own miracle stories. Indeed some stake their whole credibility on these stories.

Someone with your religion claims to witness a miracle, if credibility is equal, that's + 1 for your religion and - 1 for the others. The more miracles there are, the net sum will go further into the negative.

Edit 3:
Specifically if the head of the religion backs the claim of a miracle, endorses it, uses it as evidence that the theology is true.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Every religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods.

Your premise is false. Learn about other religions before you make "every religion" statements.

 

[Brickjectivity]

very religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods.

Sometimes they don't worship gods, and sometimes they don't deny the existence of other gods. Some specifically do both or only one.

 

[viole]

Every religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods. However, miracles happen to people of all faiths. From this we can conclude that either:

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

With more education, technological advances, communication, etc. I think number four is becoming more and more likely.

You do not need education, technological advances, communication, etc. to see what miracles are, really. That would be like killing a fly with an H bomb. You just need some very basic critical thinking.

For instance, miracles, especially in case of medical miracles, seem to affect internal medicine only. Cancers, depression, addiction, headaches, etc. All things hidden from view. No trace of:

1) Miracles involving growing a new limb after amputation
2) Miracles involving curing genetic diseases
3) Miracles involving separating Siamese twins
4) Growing a new perfect set of new eyes after physically losing both of them
etc.

Independently of the amount of prayer deployed.

So, either miracles are such that they could still be no miracles, and in that case rationality would mandate they are more likely to be natural, or God loves (some) cancer patients, while hating (all) amputees.

Their call, really.

Ciao

- viole

 

[PureX]

Our inability to explain how something happened is not the only or exclusive criteria for labeling something a 'miracle'. In fact, that label refers to our perception of an event not to the actual nature of the event. For example, if I say, "Joe is tall" I am not referring to an attribute of Joe, I am referring to my perception of Joe in relation to myself.

Also, humans can't actually define God. So the fact that humans have multiple ways of conceiving of and of defining God in their minds does not determine the actual existence or nature of God.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Every religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods. However, miracles happen to people of all faiths. From this we can conclude that either:

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

With more education, technological advances, communication, etc. I think number four is becoming more and more likely.

But overall I grasp what you're saying, and there are some people who view religion this way and claim these things. For example if you were to read More Than a Carpenter by Josh McDowel you'd see those ideas represented. That book is merely expanding upon C.S. Lewis 'Trilemma' claim that Jesus is Lord, Liar or Lunatic. What appear on its surface to be only an argument about the Divinity and dual nature of Jesus is actually a claim to all of those things in your OP.

We also have Islam's claims, which are quite specific in pointing out which gods are false, its miracles, its claims about Allah and against corruption in Christianity and Judaism.

We have Christianity's claims about Judaism, too.

Then in the Hinduism branch with which I am not familiar there are those who believe in duality and those who do not, those who believe in Krishna and those who reject Krishna.

There are also around the world small tribes which live in a fearful state, rejecting all outsiders who have not proven themselves. You are likely to be met by their spears rather than by their smiles. This is no different from claiming their gods are the best, their way of life.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Then in the Hinduism branch with which I am not familiar there are those who believe in duality and those who do not, those who believe in Krishna and those who reject Krishna.

I'm not sure this is true. While there are Hindus that don't worship Krishna, I don't think they reject him as a deity.

 

[Link]

People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles

I believe the Imam of our time, the Mahdi, does perform miracles, but those who witness it aren't allowed to report it and talk about the meeting with the Mahdi in public. This is because the proof is for the particular person witnessing it.

When miracles are in public, then they can be reported.

 

[Father Heathen]

There could be some profound cosmic force or entity yet all of our religions might still have amounted to nothing more than off-the-mark presumptions.

(Edited to be less confusing)

 

[SalixIncendium]

There could be some profound cosmic force or entity yet all of our religions have amounted to nothing more than off-the-mark presumptions.

All of them? Are you sure about that? You've studied all religions and their philosophies?

 

[Father Heathen]

All of them? Are you sure about that? You've studied all religions and their philosophies?

I didn't make an assertion but rather presented a possibility that the OP didn't consider. Was my wording confusing?

 

[SalixIncendium]

I didn't make an assertion but rather presented a possibility that the OP didn't consider. Was my wording confusing?

Yes, because...

...yet all of our religions have amounted to nothing more than off-the-mark presumptions.

...reads more like an assertion and less (or more accurately, nothing) like a presented possibility.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yes, because...


...reads more like an assertion and less (or more accurately, nothing) like a presented possibility.

To simplify, my point was that a god existing in and of itself wouldn't prove what anyone has said about god to be true.
For example, the fact that Abraham Lincoln existed doesn't make the movie "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" a documentary.

 

[Left Coast]

Every religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods. However, miracles happen to people of all faiths. From this we can conclude that either:

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

With more education, technological advances, communication, etc. I think number four is becoming more and more likely.

Two of your four explanations allow for the existence of God(s). So if your goal is to make an argument that none exist...?

 

[SalixIncendium]

To simplify, my point was that a god existing in and of itself wouldn't prove what anyone has said about god to be true.
For example, the fact that Abraham Lincoln existed doesn't make the movie "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" a documentary.

I appreciate you taking the time to simplify this.

Your simplification also shows us that you have no way of proving to anyone that presumptions made about any god are off-the-mark.

 

[setarcos]

Every religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods. However, miracles happen to people of all faiths. From this we can conclude that either:

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

With more education, technological advances, communication, etc. I think number four is becoming more and more likely.

The Christian religion from its point of view doesn't deny the ability of other entities creating miracles, though those miracles may be restricted in some ways. For instance the bible declares the entity it calls Satan to be the God of this world. In order to understand this one has to understand how the bible treats the word God. There is only one GOD but many "false" gods which from our point of view would seem to have God like powers...including the ability to create miracles in a restricted sense. Miracle here being treated as a supernatural phenomena.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your premise is false. Learn about other religions before you make "every religion" statements.

An even better idea: give the OP the benefit of the doubt and consider whether his core idea has truth to it instead of quibbling about how it might not apply perfectly to edge cases.

 

[Father Heathen]

I appreciate you taking the time to simplify this.

Your simplification also shows us that you have no way of proving to anyone that presumptions made about any god are off-the-mark.

God damn Your reading comprehension is terrible, son. I just said I wasn't making any assertion or trying to prove anything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, because...


...reads more like an assertion and less (or more accurately, nothing) like a presented possibility.

Sure... all you had to do was get rid of the "there could be" that prefaced the statement.

 

[SalixIncendium]

An even better idea: give the OP the benefit of the doubt and consider whether his core idea has truth to it instead of quibbling about how it might not apply perfectly to edge cases.

How can there be truth to a core idea when then premise to that core idea is false?

And I didn't even get into the "miracles happen to people of all faiths" statement, which is also false.

Here's an even better better idea: Atheists in general should stop lumping all religions into their personal conceptualization of religion.