Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Is he really Al Mahdi and the Messiah?

[Gharib]

Al Mahdi

First, I would like to see if indeed he is the Mahdi. I will post some authentic hadith which speak about the Mahdi.

Ali b. Abi Talib(RA) has related a tradition from the Prophet(SAW) who informed him:
The promised Mahdi will be among my family. God will make the provisions for his emergence within a single night.
(Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Hazrat Umme Salmah(RA), Prophet's wife, narrates that she heard the Prophet(SAW) say:
The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Rasulullah(SAW) announced:
The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatima (the Prophet's daughter).
(Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4086)

The Prophet(SAW) taught:
Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt).
(Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4085)

Now I want to know if Mirza Ghulam is/was a descendant of the Prophet?

 

[Rational_Mind]

There is a bit of an issue here. If you are genuinely interested in testing the claim of the Promised Messiah (as) then we must first begin on whether or not a Prophet of God can come after the Holy Prophet (saw). Even if you do come to agree that he was a descendant I cannot see how it would be logical for you to accept it if you believe that no Prophet can come after the Holy Prophet (saw).

As to your request, it was directly revealed to him by God that he was in fact a descendant of the Holy Prophet (saw) through his grandmothers.

Revealed round about 1881
One prophecy, dating about eighteen years back, is the following:

Translation: [Arabic] God, Who has bestowed
upon you a marital arrangement with a noble
family who are Sayyed, is the True God. Also,
He has made your own descent from a noble
family which is compounded mix of Persians
and Sayyeds.

[Tiryaqul-Qulub, p. 64, Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 15, pp. 272–273]

I feel you should set your standards higher, to the Holy Quran to test a claim of Prophethood. Possibility of Prophethood after the Holy Prophet (saw) to begin with. It is only logical.

 

[Assad91]

Why should one take this "revelation" you qouted, when in Quran, Muhammad(saws) is called the seal of prophets.

Where in Quran is another prophet promised?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Why should one take this "revelation" you qouted, when in Quran, Muhammad(saws) is called the seal of prophets.

Where in Quran is another prophet promised?

That is a more valid question to investigate as this would be a valid way to test ones claim.

To begin, the word used as "Seal" when compounded with a status doesn't ever mean to be last. To prove that I am not making this up, here are just a few instances of the use of the word in early Islam:

KHATAM-UL-AULIYYA: title given to Hadhrat Ali (ra) by Prophet (saw) (Tafsser-e-Saafi). If it means last of Saintly People then no Saintly person came after Hadhrat Ali (ra) and Islam was doomed (nauzobillah). This title was later also given to, Hadhrat Imam Shafee, Hadhrat Abn-e-Arabi, and many many other people. It means "best of Saintly People" even though Khatam has usage of last but combined it is not necessary to be literal. Such as Broke his or her Heart does not mean literal.

KHATAM-ATUL-MUJAHIDEEN: (seal of crusaders) for AlSayyad Ahmad Sanosi. (Akhbar AlJami’atul Islamiyyah, Palestine, 27 Muharram, 1352 A.H.)

KHATAM-AL-KAMAALAAT: (seal of miracles) for the Holy Prophet (pbuh). (‘Ilmul Kitaab, p. 140)

KHATAM-AL-MU’ALLIMEEN: (seal of teachers/scholars) used for the Holy Prophet(pbuh)

For a fuller discussion you can view differing view points on Google. There is yet to be find a single usage of Khatam as a title on the last of any King in classical arabic. This term has never been found to be used in the sense people have tried to apply. In fact, the verse itself would not make sense in this translation. What greatness is there in being last to come? Even so I could continue with other clear verses that profess continuity of Prophet-hood, since all Muslims believe there is no contradiction in the Holy Quran then we would have to accept a misunderstanding on our part rather than a contradiction.

More: Finality of Prophethood - Khatam-e-Nabuwwat

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.(33:41)"

The Holy Quran speaking on the coming of another Prophet, who would be Ummati, and reform the teachings of Islam prophesied:

[62:3] He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;

[62:4] And among others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

There is a Hadith that was narrated about the occasion of this revelation when a companion of the Holy Prophet (as) asked about whom this verse speaks that is to follow the only Unlettered Prophet.

A companion of The Holy Prophet (saw) relates: One day we were sitting with The Holy Prophet (saw) when this chapter was revealed. I enquired from Muhammad (saw). Who are the people to whom the words and among others of them who have not yet joined them refer? Salman (ra), a Persian was sitting among us. The Holy Prophet (saw) put his hand on Salman (ra) and said. If faith were to go up to the Pleiades, a man from among these would surely find it. (Bukhari).

There are different narrations but all have the same essence that a Prophet of God would come to bring back faith even if it had completely disappeared.

 

[Gharib]

There is a bit of an issue here. If you are genuinely interested in testing the claim of the Promised Messiah (as) then we must first begin on whether or not a Prophet of God can come after the Holy Prophet (saw). Even if you do come to agree that he was a descendant I cannot see how it would be logical for you to accept it if you believe that no Prophet can come after the Holy Prophet (saw).

As to your request, it was directly revealed to him by God that he was in fact a descendant of the Holy Prophet (saw) through his grandmothers.



I feel you should set your standards higher, to the Holy Quran to test a claim of Prophethood. Possibility of Prophethood after the Holy Prophet (saw) to begin with. It is only logical.

Please stick to answering my question.

If you believe Mirza is really who he says he is then please answer my questions as I post them. I would rather get straight to the point instead of ask you about things which you will twist around on me and present that as correct.

Now, as far as the "evidence" of him receiving revelation that he is the descendant of the Prophet goes, I do not accept it. You need to present something more than just "Mirza says so".

Unless I am mistaken, Mirza was not an Arab, he was a Persian. So please clear this out for me.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Please stick to answering my question.

If you believe Mirza is really who he says he is then please answer my questions as I post them. I would rather get straight to the point instead of ask you about things which you will twist around on me and present that as correct.

Now, as far as the "evidence" of him receiving revelation that he is the descendant of the Prophet goes, I do not accept it. You need to present something more than just "Mirza says so".

Unless I am mistaken, Mirza was not an Arab, he was a Persian. So please clear this out for me.

Yes he was Persian descent. He stated himself that he was descendant of the Holy Prophet (saw). How do you suppose the true Imam Mahdi would prove his descent?

Also how did the Holy Prophet (saw) prove his descent as from Ishmael?

I am guessing that you must have already accepted that a Prophet can come, so you must now decide if he was the one. If not then you are playing a game and wasting my time as it would be wrong for you to accept a man if you believe it is against the Holy Quran. In such a case you are the "twister" not me. I have not hid or requested for something that cannot be accepted.

Please be careful in what you accuse others of, as currently you are on questionable grounds. The people who rejected the Holy Prophet (saw) use to engage in such style of faulty questioning.

 

[Gharib]

Yes he was Persian descent. He stated himself that he was descendant of the Holy Prophet (saw). How do you suppose the true Imam Mahdi would prove his descent?

Also how did the Holy Prophet (saw) prove his descent as from Ishmael?

I am guessing that you must have already accepted that a Prophet can come, so you must now decide if he was the one. If not then you are playing a game and wasting my time as it would be wrong for you to accept a man if you believe it is against the Holy Quran. In such a case you are the "twister" not me. I have not hid or requested for something that cannot be accepted.

Please be careful in what you accuse others of, as currently you are on questionable grounds. The people who rejected the Holy Prophet (saw) use to engage in such style of faulty questioning.

Hahaha, OK if that's what you wish then no problem.

But if I prove that there can be no Prophet after Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa salam then the debate is over and Mirza Ghulam is a fake. There should be no further discussion if his claim of a Prophet after Muhammed is disproved.

Do you agree?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Hahaha, OK if that's what you wish then no problem.

But if I prove that there can be no Prophet after Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa salam then the debate is over and Mirza Ghulam is a fake. There should be no further discussion if his claim of a Prophet after Muhammed is disproved.

Do you agree?

This is not as simple as you think. First and foremost you must realize that there is a possibility of you being wrong. If you do not accept this then there is no use of such discussion as you would never be able to accept the other side. The same way I come here trusting that you will present something to convince me of your view.

So do you currently firmly believe that the Holy Quran has set out that no Prophet can come after the Holy Prophet (saw), PERIOD?

If so then you have to stay on this firm ground on your arguments and cannot later back out without accepting error on your part.

Similarly since I believe that a Ummati Prophet (non-law bearing who is fixed to the laws of Islam) can come after the Holy Prophet (saw). I cannot backout on this without accepting an error on my part.

If you are correct then I must stop awaiting anyone after the Holy Prophet (saw) and also give up my acceptance of any claimant to Prophethood after the Holy Prophet (saw).

If I am correct then you must investigate thoroughly and fairly with dedicated prayers to see if Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is the Prophet of God foretold as Imam Mahdi and Isa Ibn Maryam.

Also since your view is Quran is above Hadith you must be willing to accept the teachings of the Quran above any Hadith. Similarly I must do so as well.

 

[Gharib]

I think I raised the bar way too high for you Rational Mind.

Lets try this again as I can hardly understand what you've said in your post. I like simple, plain language so lets keep it at that.

I'll come up with the rules you just say if you agree or not.

The Qur'an:

Although the Qur'an is the primary source of legislation, I am in no position to argue with you with the verses of the Qur'an for a number of reasons, some of which are:

1. It cannot be understood on it's own. To Understand the Qur'an we need to look into the details surrounding the revelation of the verses and the explanation of those verses by the Prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam.

2. You disagree with point 1 only to turn around and say that Mirza, who you believe is a prophet and received divine revelation, has explained the verses. Which in turn goes back to point 1.

3. You can change the meaning of the verses in any way that will support your beliefs. You could say the same about me, so lets stay away from it for this discussion.

As you can see we do not qualify to interpret the verses of the Qur'an based on our own understanding of the plain words that appear before us.

So, since you say you are a Muslim and that you believe Muhammed is a real Prophet, then we will look into the hadith which are easier to understand and the meaning of almost all hadith is self evident and requires no commentary or explanation.

Do you accept this challenge?

 

[Rational_Mind]

I think I raised the bar way too high for you Rational Mind.

Lets try this again as I can hardly understand what you've said in your post. I like simple, plain language so lets keep it at that.

I'll come up with the rules you just say if you agree or not.

The Qur'an:

Although the Qur'an is the primary source of legislation, I am in no position to argue with you with the verses of the Qur'an for a number of reasons, some of which are:

1. It cannot be understood on it's own. To Understand the Qur'an we need to look into the details surrounding the revelation of the verses and the explanation of those verses by the Prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam.

2. You disagree with point 1 only to turn around and say that Mirza, who you believe is a prophet and received divine revelation, has explained the verses. Which in turn goes back to point 1.

3. You can change the meaning of the verses in any way that will support your beliefs. You could say the same about me, so lets stay away from it for this discussion.

As you can see we do not qualify to interpret the verses of the Qur'an based on our own understanding of the plain words that appear before us.

So, since you say you are a Muslim and that you believe Muhammed is a real Prophet, then we will look into the hadith which are easier to understand and the meaning of almost all hadith is self evident and requires no commentary or explanation.

Do you accept this challenge?

I will present the verses below from the Holy Quran that explain its position and explain how clear it is, free from doubt (la raibh). Hopefully, an accusations of twisting cannot be laid by a Muslim against the Holy Quran, especially since itself explains it cannot be perverted in meanings due to its writing structure. Any twists end up in contradictions, and I have avoided thus far.

[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,

[6:115] Shall I seek for judge other than Allah, when He it is Who has sent down to you the Book, clearly explained? And those to whom We gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt.

[10:38] And this Qur’an is not such as might be devised by any one except Allah. On the contrary, it fulfils that which is before it and is an exposition of the Law of God. There is no doubt about it. It is from the Lord of the worlds.
[10:39] Do they say, ‘He has forged it?’ Say, ‘Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call for help on all you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.’
[10:40] Nay, but they have rejected that the knowledge of which they did not encompass nor has the true significance thereof yet come to them. In like manner did those before them reject the truth. But see what was the end of those who did wrong!

[12:2] Alif Lam Ra. These are verses of the clear Book.

[26:3] These are verses of the clear Book.

[27:2] Ta Sin. These are verses of the Qur’an, and of an illuminating Book

[39:24] Allah has sent down the best Message in the form of a Book, whose verses are mutually supporting and repeated in diverse forms at which do creep the skins of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts soften to the remembrance of Allah. Such is the guidance of Allah; He guides therewith whom He pleases. And he whom Allah adjudges astray — he shall have no guide.

[41:42] Those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them are the losers. And, truly, it is a mighty Book.
[41:43] Falsehood cannot approach it either from before or from behind it. It is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy.

[41:45] And if We had made it a Qur’an in a foreign tongue, they surely would have said, ‘Why have not its verses been made clear? What! a foreign tongue and an Arab?’ Say, ‘It is a guidance and a healing for those who believe.’ But as to those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness for them. They are, as it were, being called to from a far off place.

[45:21] This Book contains clear evidences for mankind and is a guidance and a mercy for a people who possess firm faith.

I now fear that regardless of what I present at this point you may now reject it. The verse below explains, that once you have rejected a Messenger on hearsay Allah (swt) seals the heart as a punishment. In this state you have made a statement that you find comfort in Hadith rather then the Quran. I sincerely hope you correct yourself.

[7:102] Such were the towns some of whose news We have related to thee. And their Messengers did indeed come to them with clear Signs. But they would not believe what they had disbelieved before. In this manner does Allah seal up the hearts of the disbelievers.

I have no trouble presenting Hadith, but I know that this would end with you denying Sahih Hadith because it contradicts your own preconceived notions. But such which cannot be done to the Holy Quran.

It is even more unfortunate that you would turn away from the Quran as well in such a state. I pray that Allah (swt) descends Angels on you heart to soften it, to give you a chance to clear the mistake you have already made. How hope you come to realize this mistake and correct it, as I only said that Quran is prioritized above Hadith and never requested not to use Hadith.

 

[Assad91]

Stop beating around the bush and inderectly insulting each other. I am very interested in this debate, and know it will be interesting coming from two very intelligent brothers.

As for any other input, I wish ti ask on the side, Mahdi isnt to be prophet, is he? From what I have learned is he will lead the ummah as a caliph and battle dajjal. So if too believe Mr. Ahmad as the mahdi, then who was the dajjal and where is Isa (as) and why is the ummah in such a state? Based on this, I cant believe Ahmad to be the mahdi.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Stop beating around the bush and inderectly insulting each other. I am very interested in this debate, and know it will be interesting coming from two very intelligent brothers.

As for any other input, I wish ti ask on the side, Mahdi isnt to be prophet, is he? From what I have learned is he will lead the ummah as a caliph and battle dajjal. So if too believe Mr. Ahmad as the mahdi, then who was the dajjal and where is Isa (as) and why is the ummah in such a state? Based on this, I cant believe Ahmad to be the mahdi.

There are rules around any debate/discussion. If I do not establish these now it usually ends up with pages and pages of false accusations pasted from the internet and when all is answered there will be vile statements, personal attacks and accusations laid at the end.

There are different kinds of people who engage in such discussions, some of whom are genuinely interested, some of whom have been motivated to prove the other wrong and walk out in arrogance. I have spent countless hours with the second type and taken away time from the first. So it is my hope that atleast such discussion will provide reason for the first to investigate further.

The way I see you questions they are genuine and legitimate, but a few clarifications need to be made to refocus them.

First we believe that Imam Mahdi and Ibn Maryam mentioned in Hadith are one and the same. It may seem outrageous for those who were told that these two identities would appear separately in the latter days. To establish this there are multiple proofs:

1. We believe that Isa (as) as per the Quran has already passed away so his physical return would not be of question once this is proven.

2. Hadith literature mention that "there is no Mahdi except Isa" stating they are both the same identity. Hadith literature also call both Ibn Maryam and Imam Mahdi as Khalifa and Sahih Hadith states that there cannot be two Khalifa's, if there are kill the latter one. Another interesting point is that there is no mention of Imam Mahdi in Sahih Bukhari, it is apparently "missed" altogether. In our opinion it is not "missed" but Imam Bukhari understood Ibn Maryam to be the same identity as they believed that Isa (as) passed away and Imam Mahdi is also known as Ibn Maryam as it is a title given in resemblance to the mission of the Israelite Prophet and the Ummati Prophet.

3. As to the Imam Mahdi being a Prophet this can also be established by the fact that one cannot reject him. This condition only exists for Prophets of God.

4. Where is the Dajjal? As to this question the Dajjal first and foremost needs to be understood. Today many non-Ahmadi scholars have begun to acknowledge that the Dajjal is not a literal person. Among many ways to prove this is his height described, the fact that his identity matches those of airplanes, trains, and the state of the world today.

5. Why is the state of Muslims today as such? This is a proof itself of the Imam Mahdi, the fact that he will be sent when Muslims are in need of dire help because they need guidance after they have gone astray. This is the state described in the Hadith. Those who question why Muslims did not conquer the world in One Day or a few Months, the answer is easy on two grounds. The first that the Holy Prophet (saw) did not achieve what they request and neither is this the practice of Allah (swt), never seen in any Prophet of God in Quran. The second, after the masses rejected a Prophet of God why would they be blessed as a whole? On the contrary they are punished, the state you see today is rather a punishment. This scenario has happened at the coming of every Prophet of God, if one does not believe me, they can turn to the narrations in the Holy Quran.

Which point should I address first by providing supports. I want to give you sufficient information to refocus your questions. It would not be possible to approach all of them at once, given the length.

A word of warning, often people think that the Prophecy should be fulfilled as they understand it. But that is not the case of Prophecies, when one thinks it should be fulfilled to their liking it is no longer a Prophecy of God but their own Prophecy. Many have misunderstood Prophecies especially as taking them literally. In fact when we know the Holy Prophet (saw) himself had misunderstood the prophecy of Hajj the year they were not permitted to perform it by the Meccans. He stated that Gods words were true he misunderstood and some followers were angry and he calmed them down and warned them. Once it comes to pass it becomes even more obvious that ones interpretation was incorrect. I can cite more incidences of this to show that we should try to understand the Hadith rather than force fit ones own interpretation as the Holy Prophet (saw) himself demonstrated that this is not the case.

 

[Gharib]

I find your posts rather amusing Rational. I seriously mean it, not in a bad way but in a good way.

I explained to you why discussing this topic with the Qur'an would not work because in every post of yours, be it in this thread or otherwise, you give explanations of what the verses mean. If you give me your word to just post the verse as it is without any "explanation" of it's meaning then I will take you up on that seeing that your argument stands no chance over the hadith whose meaning neither of us can manipulate. The same goes for the Qur'an, but still there is room for playing with words.

When it comes to understanding the Qur'an, Scholars comment it's verses in the following way:

1. Qur'an with Qur'an - They try to understand one verse with other verses of the same nature/message/meaning.

2. Qur'an with Hadith - If there are no other similar verses to help explain a specific verse then the scholars turn to the hadith for understanding.

Other methods follow after, such as the opinions of the Sahaba on the meaning of a verse or a hadith etc.

If you are truthful about this, then post the verses which you believe say that:

1. A Prophet will come after Muhammed or that Muhammed is not the last Prophet.
2. Imam Mahdi and Isa are the same person.
3. Isa died a natural death and that Allah didn't rise him up (physically)

Remember, do not try to explain the meaning of the verses just post them and you may say which point you are answering.

 

[Gharib]

Stop beating around the bush and inderectly insulting each other. I am very interested in this debate, and know it will be interesting coming from two very intelligent brothers.

As for any other input, I wish ti ask on the side, Mahdi isnt to be prophet, is he? From what I have learned is he will lead the ummah as a caliph and battle dajjal. So if too believe Mr. Ahmad as the mahdi, then who was the dajjal and where is Isa (as) and why is the ummah in such a state? Based on this, I cant believe Ahmad to be the mahdi.

Isa alayhi salam will be the one who will kill the dajjal. Imam Mahdi will fight the wars before the advent of the dajjal. Everyone will be gathered within the borders of Makkah and Madinah as the dajjal cannot enter the 2 holy cities and that's when Isa will descend and kill Ad-Dajjal

 

[F0uad]

The biggest problem that i got with accepting is that the Hadiths clearly mentions that they are two different persons, the Mahdi and the Messiah.. Yet the Amidiyah community beliefs differently.

 

[Rational_Mind]

The biggest problem that i got with accepting is that the Hadiths clearly mentions that they are two different persons, the Mahdi and the Messiah.. Yet the Amidiyah community beliefs differently.

First a foremost I am assuming you know that a man's understanding of a Prophecy can be incorrect. To prove this I stated the incident when a pilgrimage was made to Mecca as the Holy Prophet (saw) understood that it was a year that they would be able to complete Hajj. On the contrary he learned that he had misunderstood the prophecy.

So on this basis do you agree that your understanding could be incorrect?
If so then I can show you two different ways from Hadith that the idea of two separate identities emerging is contradictory. From one view, there cannot be two Khalifah's and secondly a Hadith clearly states "There is no Mahdi except Isa". Actually there is also a third logical basis, that Imam Bukhari has not even once in his entire collection of Hadith collected a single Hadith that identifies a person by the name of Imam Mahdi, on the contrary any Hadith about a coming of a man in latter days is identified by Ibn Maryam.

What I am trying to state is that Sunni Muslim's have a certain story taught about the coming of Isa (as) and the Imam Mahdi. And most people want the Prophecy to fit this story, but unfortunately nobody questions the story but questions the claimant. There are so many variations of the story given, that it is hard to even number. Each version strictly contradicts the other. So even if any claimant fulfilled one version it would amount to mass rejection. Point being, the mass diversity of these stories alone proves that they are not conclusive and a further study is needed.

 

[Gharib]

The biggest problem that i got with accepting is that the Hadiths clearly mentions that they are two different persons, the Mahdi and the Messiah.. Yet the Amidiyah community beliefs differently.

I know, that's why Ahmadis don't like to debate this topic with the hadith, because the hadith are very clear on this issue. But they can play around with the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an if you let them.

Rational, do you accept my post above on how we are to debate this if we use the Qur'an?

 

[Rational_Mind]

I find your posts rather amusing Rational. I seriously mean it, not in a bad way but in a good way.

I explained to you why discussing this topic with the Qur'an would not work because in every post of yours, be it in this thread or otherwise, you give explanations of what the verses mean. If you give me your word to just post the verse as it is without any "explanation" of it's meaning then I will take you up on that seeing that your argument stands no chance over the hadith whose meaning neither of us can manipulate. The same goes for the Qur'an, but still there is room for playing with words.

When it comes to understanding the Qur'an, Scholars comment it's verses in the following way:

1. Qur'an with Qur'an - They try to understand one verse with other verses of the same nature/message/meaning.

2. Qur'an with Hadith - If there are no other similar verses to help explain a specific verse then the scholars turn to the hadith for understanding.

Other methods follow after, such as the opinions of the Sahaba on the meaning of a verse or a hadith etc.

If you are truthful about this, then post the verses which you believe say that:

1. A Prophet will come after Muhammed or that Muhammed is not the last Prophet.
2. Imam Mahdi and Isa are the same person.
3. Isa died a natural death and that Allah didn't rise him up (physically)

Remember, do not try to explain the meaning of the verses just post them and you may say which point you are answering.

I know, that's why Ahmadis don't like to debate this topic with the hadith, because the hadith are very clear on this issue. But they can play around with the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an if you let them.

Rational, do you accept my post above on how we are to debate this if we use the Qur'an?

Do you or do you not accept the verses of the Holy Quran describing it's status? I did not need to comment much on them and I had hoped that you have read them.

Are you of the opinion that Hadith is superior to the Quran? If not then why in your actions do you profess this? When I have clearly stated many verses that indicate that the Quran is a guidance for the righteous. Yet you state that Hadith that was collected 200yrs after and also never promised to be protected by God, written from narrations, is free from doubt. HAVE YOU NOT READ THAT THE QURAN IS FREE FROM DOUBT??

I am highly highly disappointed that today that state of mainstream Islam is such that they have to reject the Quran as a guidance so that they can reject the Messiah of their age.

I still cannot believe the statements you have made. How can you possibly convince me that you are correct on an issue when you fear turning to the Holy Quran so much. You fear that you will not be able to refute the interpretation of verses so you suggest that I just place them here so that you are free to give your interpretation yet I cannot. The Quran itself says that it cannot be perverted, yet you insist that it can, may Allah (swt) have mercy on your soul.

Neither have authentic Hadith ever supported falsehood neither has the Quran. Run where you may as I know that a person who makes such statements in arrogance (note your laughter) and foolishness (fear of the Quran) has already prepared to reject all truth. Your statement are so out of place that the only place they fall into is the cunning acts Christians would try to trick the Holy Prophet (saw) into.

One such incident is when they came to him and said only answer what we ask and do not comment. They asked if Jesus (as) has been described as the "word" and "spirit" of Allah in the Holy Quran.

You attitude itself displays the position of the weak. Secondly you have further highlighted a Prophecy where the Holy Prophet (saw) said that the latter days Islam would emerge similarly to it's first emergence. Ironically you bring the argumentative style of the enemies of the Holy Prophet (saw), you label yourself Gharib when on the contrary Ahmadi's are Gharib, moreover you express "I want Khalifa back" when it is the Ahmadiyya Jamat that is the only Muslim community blessed with Islamic Khilafat.

This conduct of yours itself serves as an undeniable sign for those who are of a sincere heart.

 

[Gharib]

Hahaha, as I said, I find your posts amusing Rational.

I accept that nothing is superior to the Qur'an. I have stated this many times before. Do you think I am lying?

I accept that the Qur'an is free from error and that Allah is it's protector.

I accept the post in which you stated that the Qur'an is self explanatory and that it requires no explanations.

Yet you blame me for your wrongdoing.

You posted this verse, look:

[6:115] Shall I seek for judge other than Allah, when He it is Who has sent down to you the Book, clearly explained? And those to whom We gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt.

So I don't understand why you would contradict the Qur'an and say that you need to give explanations over the meaning of it's verses:

You fear that you will not be able to refute the interpretation of verses so you suggest that I just place them here so that you are free to give your interpretation yet I cannot.

I never said that I should get a pass into interpreting verses, like I said, neither of us qualifies to do that on our own.

I too will "just place them here" same as you. And please stop accusing me of falsehood.

It appears to me that you have something to fear Rational. You turn to the hadith as soon as you find that they support your views but when they don't, all of a sudden the hadith do not matter. What's it going to be.

 

[Gharib]

I'd like to spoil your breakfast with a verse Rational:

33:40 Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.