Misogyny Stemming from the Abrahamic Religions Today?

[thomas t]

In the last thread two women agreed that Abrahamic Religions inspired anti-women bias.
I'm interested as to know what cases of anti-women bias you came across in the Christian churches in todays world?
I'm also interested in knowing which are the cases you see in which Christianity inspired misogyny?

------------------------
As a Christian I must admit that, sadly, I see misogyny occurring in Christianity.

Prime example for me is this: many Christians want to outlaw abortion. The price would have to be paid solely by women and not men.

This is a measure that noone knows will have any beneficial effect for the unborn life. And yet it will make life more difficult for those wanting to obtain an abortion: they would have to travel or even resort to an unsafe backstreet abortion. There are tens of thousands of women dying every year from unsafe backstreet abortions. https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/75173/WHO_RHR_12.01_eng.pdf

Don't get me wrong: I am against abortion of course (I'm a Christian).
However, I am also against all sorts of measures, such as criminalizing abortion, that cannot be documented to have any positive effect on abortion numbers at all.

To me, any demands for abortion to be punishable comes down to a lack of education. Those who want abortions to be banned should know first that there are no studies available that document a decrease in the overall abortion numbers after abortion is outlawed somewhere. This is at least my point of view.

------------
This thread is about today - lets say the last ten years or so. Looks into the more distant past like the Middle Ages or even 100 years ago will be considered off topic here (cause the thread gets too long in this case, I'm afraid).

 

[ChristineM]

1 Yes the imposition the church puts on the female body is one

2 The glass ceiling in many branches of abrahamic religion preventing women from for example, the priesthood. But women are great at cleaning the church and arranging the flowers.

3 I find abrahamic religion teaching impacts men to give them the impression women are second class. Those effected don't see the problem of course, it's simply the way they have been taught that women should be subservient.

4 The obverse happens with women, they are indoctrinated from childhood to accept 2nd class status.

I have several personal examples that i won't go into but basically they relate 3 and 4

 

[Heyo]

In the last thread two women agreed that Abrahamic Religions inspired anti-women bias.
I'm interested as to know what cases of anti-women bias you came across in the Christian churches in todays world?

Lets start with the biggest sect of Christianity, the RCC. Women have no opportunity to get even to the lowest level of any decision making, they can't become priests. They can't even have indirect influence because priests aren't allowed to marry.
Afaik it's the same for the Orthodox Church.
And we can't blame that on culture as they have a scriptural reference in one of Paul's letters, so it's definitely religion based.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...As a Christian I must admit that, sadly, I see misogyny occurring in Christianity...

Do we want to get into anti-men bias or should that be in another thread?

 

[SomeRandom]

Do we want to get into anti-men bias or should that be in another thread?

Another thread perhaps?

 

[Revoltingest]

Prime example for me is this: many Christians want to outlaw abortion. The price would have to be paid solely by women and not men.

I don't see it that way.
The father would be legally required to support the child
for 20 years or so. The mother can avoid that obligation
by giving the baby up for adoption.
Also, abortion for many people isn't about punishing women.
It's about the baby's [sic] right to life upon conception.

BTW, I do see some Christians wanting punishment when
the mother is seen as wanton, eg, allowing abortion in
cases of incest, but not voluntary sex. But that shouldn't
be broadened to all Christians.

 

[Estro Felino]

We shall not forget that we Catholics statistically pray much more to Mary than to Jesus or God.
Because rosaries are made up of tens of Hail Mary's and few Our Father's.
This, I think does not intend to disprove that there is misoginy within Christian Scriptures.
There is.

 

[thomas t]

You cannot trade rights, in my opinion.
You cannot say "dear women you have less rights on your body. That's just fine. On the other hand men can pay something!"

Also, abortion for many people isn't about punishing women.
It's about the baby's [sic] right to life upon conception.

right to life, that's great.
If a ban on abortion does not get to lower the abortion numbers, it's useless for said right to life.

 

[thomas t]

1 Yes the imposition the church puts on the female body is one

thanks for replying.
Can you please elaborate what you are talking about in this quote?
Thank you in advance.

 

[ChristineM]

thanks for replying.
Can you please elaborate what you are talking about in this quote?
Thank you in advance.

it was based on your comments about abortion. It is the womans body to do with as she will, not the churches body to impose restrictions on it

 

[Revoltingest]

You cannot trade rights, in my opinion.
You cannot say "dear women you have less rights on your body. That's just fine. On the other hand men can pay something!"

From a secular approach, rights are not absolute.
Rights are things widely agreed upon to be rights.
But this means there'll be disagreement & conflict, eg,
1) Fetus's right to life
2) Mother's right to bodily autonomy.
(I'm in the #2 camp, BTW.)
Some will recognize one, but not the other.
Some will recognize both, which means prioritizing one over the other.
Standards of prioritizing are subject to even more variety.
The dismissive "men can pay something" is to weigh this
burden as negligible compared to carrying pregnancy to term.
This is only your personal view.

right to life, that's great.
If a ban on abortion does not get to lower the abortion numbers, it's useless for said right to life.

That is about practicality of balancing one claimed right against another.
It's useful IMO, but won't satisfy those who believe in absolute truths.

 

[Kooky]

I don't see it that way.
The father would be legally required to support the child
for 20 years or so. The mother can avoid that obligation
by giving the baby up for adoption.

Is that the law in Alabama, Kentucky etc. or is that what you wish would happen there?

What happens in these states when the father can't/won't support the child, or the father isn't known?
Do these states support the mother in an equitable manner?

 

[GardenLady]

I grew up in the Roman Catholic church back in the day (I'm 66 now), including parochial school and Catholic girls' high school. I got a very good education. But it was also a religious/cultural milieu in which girls were taught that they must be modest and not inflame boys/men. Girls could not be altar servers, women could not be priests. There was objection to women being cantors or reading the epistles at mass. There was objection to women being extraordinary ministers taking communion to the homebound.

Some of these things have changed. Girls can be altar servers in some diocese in the US, but not all. Woman can read the epistle or be cantors in many (most?) places in the US. Woman can take communion to the homebound in many (most?) places in the US. But many attitudes have not changed. I have zero expectation that women will be priests in my lifetime.

The (IMO excessive) veneration of Mary is inextricably bound up with the RC idea that this mother of Jesus, a married woman, was a perpetual virgin (insert eyeroll here).

I once said to my very Catholic mother than I thought the Catholic church was one of the most misogynist organizations in the world. Mom said, "What do you mean, ONE of them?"

BTW, I am now a member of an ELCA Lutheran congregation.

 

[GardenLady]

The mother can avoid that obligation
by giving the baby up for adoption.

Have you carried a child to term and given that child up for adoption? Are you in a close relationship with anyone who has done so? I am. It was horrendously painful for her. She was on medication for two years.

 

[Orbit]

In the last thread two women agreed that Abrahamic Religions inspired anti-women bias.
I'm interested as to know what cases of anti-women bias you came across in the Christian churches in todays world?
I'm also interested in knowing which are the cases you see in which Christianity inspired misogyny?

------------------------
As a Christian I must admit that, sadly, I see misogyny occurring in Christianity.

Prime example for me is this: many Christians want to outlaw abortion. The price would have to be paid solely by women and not men.

This is a measure that noone knows will have any beneficial effect for the unborn life. And yet it will make life more difficult for those wanting to obtain an abortion: they would have to travel or even resort to an unsafe backstreet abortion. There are tens of thousands of women dying every year from unsafe backstreet abortions. https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/75173/WHO_RHR_12.01_eng.pdf

Don't get me wrong: I am against abortion of course (I'm a Christian).
However, I am also against all sorts of measures, such as criminalizing abortion, that cannot be documented to have any positive effect on abortion numbers at all.

To me, any demands for abortion to be punishable comes down to a lack of education. Those who want abortions to be banned should know first that there are no studies available that document a decrease in the overall abortion numbers after abortion is outlawed somewhere. This is at least my point of view.

------------
This thread is about today - lets say the last ten years or so. Looks into the more distant past like the Middle Ages or even 100 years ago will be considered off topic here (cause the thread gets too long in this case, I'm afraid).

"Purity" culture and evangelical masculinity are problematic. See the book "Jesus and John Wayne" for a full explanation.

 

[Brickjectivity]

As a Christian I must admit that, sadly, I see misogyny occurring in Christianity.

It depends. First of all many people think Jesus has outlawed divorce, which makes marriage a very risky choice. There are situations in which divorcees are not allowed in some protestant churches, but this is much more rare than it used to be. Roman Catholics do not officially recognize divorce.

Secondly there is a statement in 1 Timothy about wives submitting to husbands.

Third there is another statement about not allowing a woman to teach a man in both 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians. It is not well understood why these statements are made. The explanation "Because man was made first" is not very clear and doesn't make sense. Head coverings are also not well understood, and most protestant churches do not use these. Roman Catholic nuns wear them, but I don't know why. In a way its like tonsils. "What are they for anyway? We'll just cut them out."

 

[VoidCat]

The idea that women must submit to their husbands...some churches take that idea way to far. There are very rare few churches that dont recoginize marital rape to be real for instance.

 

[Samael_Khan]

In the last thread two women agreed that Abrahamic Religions inspired anti-women bias.
I'm interested as to know what cases of anti-women bias you came across in the Christian churches in todays world?
I'm also interested in knowing which are the cases you see in which Christianity inspired misogyny?

------------------------
As a Christian I must admit that, sadly, I see misogyny occurring in Christianity.

Prime example for me is this: many Christians want to outlaw abortion. The price would have to be paid solely by women and not men.

This is a measure that noone knows will have any beneficial effect for the unborn life. And yet it will make life more difficult for those wanting to obtain an abortion: they would have to travel or even resort to an unsafe backstreet abortion. There are tens of thousands of women dying every year from unsafe backstreet abortions. https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/75173/WHO_RHR_12.01_eng.pdf

Don't get me wrong: I am against abortion of course (I'm a Christian).
However, I am also against all sorts of measures, such as criminalizing abortion, that cannot be documented to have any positive effect on abortion numbers at all.

To me, any demands for abortion to be punishable comes down to a lack of education. Those who want abortions to be banned should know first that there are no studies available that document a decrease in the overall abortion numbers after abortion is outlawed somewhere. This is at least my point of view.

------------
This thread is about today - lets say the last ten years or so. Looks into the more distant past like the Middle Ages or even 100 years ago will be considered off topic here (cause the thread gets too long in this case, I'm afraid).

The group I belonged to interpreted certain passages of the NT in a way that made man the head of the woman in a very strict way. So in the group women couldn't give talks to the congregation, they couldn't lead groups when preaching unless under special circumstances, they couldn't get positions of authority in the group, they couldn't correct brothers regarding spiritual matters, a woman was head of the household so she was to blame whenever stuff in the kitchen went wrong, they had to wear head coverings or when another baptised man was present etc. Divorces also aren't allowed unless infidelity is committed, meaning that there were many cases where men would abuse their wives, even physically and the women couldn't divorce them. Basically women had to submit to men and couldn't have authority over men unless they were they are their sons. I know of another group where women have to wear their hair long and wear dresses and skirts, and shouldn't wear pants or jewellery because they have to look like women and also not be conceited.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Do we want to get into anti-men bias or should that be in another thread?

That has become a thing in certain places but to be honest anti-men bias wouldn't have occurred if women weren't oppressed by male dominated societies.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is that the law in Alabama, Kentucky etc. or is that what you wish would happen there?

It's the law here.
Not just in MI.

What happens in these states when the father can't/won't support the child, or the father isn't known?

If the father is unknown, he's obviously off the hook.
If the father won't support the kid, he can land in jail.
Debtor's prison is a real thing with the Friend Of The Court,
which is the arm of the justice system handling custody issues.
If the father is unable, it can become complex. Typically
he'd have no visitation rights, & would see some asset
& income seizure.

Do these states support the mother in an equitable manner?

There are social assistance programs.
I've had employees & tenants on those.