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Misquote in the Gospel

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hope this helps.

1Co:15:22-28:
For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,
even the Father;
when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign,
till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.
You haven't made a point, so no, I think it doesn't help. How does it help?

HE says Jesus received a crown i.e. "authority" in 1914. The Bible says he received it before that.
"He must reign" also means he has the authority imo.
How is he reigning without God's permission i.e. authority, in your opinion?

Maybe, you should help HIM @kjw47.

@MHz Maybe you can help by explaining to me the difference between
1. reigning
2. having authority to reign
and
3. having a crown on his head

?

They all seem to be the same to me. How are they different to you?
 
Last edited:

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is my opinion that Jesus Christ has always had the authority to rule God's people.
1 Corinthians 10:4
At the time he proved himself faithful to the end, authority over ALL was given him. Matthew 28:18

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that he did not receive that kind of authority until 1914 in human years.
And they teach that he will give it to the faithful and discreet slave class when Jesus destroys their enemies.

Honest to God, I am talking to a brick wall, and even though I think it is FUNNY, I don't like it!
 

MHz

Member
You haven't made a point, so no, I think it doesn't help. How does it help?

HE says Jesus received a crown i.e. "authority" in 1914. The Bible says he received it before that.
"He must reign" also means he has the authority imo.
How is he resigning without God's permission ie authority, in your opinion?

Maybe, you should help HIM @kjw47.

@MHz Maybe you can help by explaining to me the difference between
1. reigning
2. having authority to reign
and
3. having a crown on his head

?

They all seem to be the same to me. How are they different to you?
The verses show how much authority Christ is given in terms of removing sinners from the planet, both human and fallen angels.

Perhaps if I give you my opinion on what the seals are that will at least show you where I am coming from.

Re:6:1:
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,
and I heard,
as it were the noise of thunder,
one of the four beasts saying,
Come and see.
Re:6:2:
And I saw, and behold a white horse:
and he that sat on him had a bow;
and a crown was given unto him:
and he went forth conquering,
and to conquer.

The seals are a prophecy that covers the events leading up to the return. The rider is God and the Holy Spirit is the white horse. The ride is symbolic of the day that nobody knows but is related to the start of the prophecies that must unfold before he return can happen. The method God uses is Christ as this next verse shows.

Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;

The first event in the return is the sealing of the 144,000 and the two witnesses (and the members of the church that have repented their sins). The coals from heaven in Re:8 before the trumps begin to sound are the same as when Saul was struck by a light from above. The ones in Revelations don't get any powers but they do get protection from any physical harm so they end up being witnesses for the tribulation that must happen before the return.

Re:6:3:
And when he had opened the second seal,
I heard the second beast say,
Come and see.
Re:6:4:
And there went out another horse that was red:
and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
and that they should kill one another:
and there was given unto him a great sword.

The sword that was left to the rulers of the nations in Romans:13 was used to protect people from evil. The red sword is when that same sword is used to bring evil on the very people it was meant to protect. trumps 1-4 happen in a period of 4 days and at the end it will be a situation when martial law has been declared on a global scale.

Re:6:5:
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say,
Come and see.
And I beheld,
and lo a black horse;
and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Re:6:6:
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say,
A measure of wheat for a penny,
and three measures of barley for a penny;
and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

This is also part of the first 4 trumps and this means that the ones who control the red sword will also hoard all the food and they will distribute to the ones they like and withhold it from the ones they classify as 'disposable'.

Re:6:7:
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Re:6:8:
And I looked,
and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth,
to kill with sword,
and with hunger,
and with death,
and with the beasts of the earth.

Satan and the Beast from the Pit make their appearance when the 5th trump sounds, from there it is 42 months before the 7th trump sounds. Hell is the pain (but no death) associated with the 5th trump, death is the 6th trump when 1/3 of all the people on the planet will be killed by 4 fallen angels who manifest themselves into an army of 200M horsemen.
The 1/4 of the earth they are given is all the dry ground the planet has as no people live on the oceans.

Re:6:9:
And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
Re:6:10:
And they cried with a loud voice,
saying,
How long,
O Lord,
holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Re:6:11:
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.

The people mentioned are the ones in the Bible that died because of the work they were doing for God. The last two that will die as a result of that is the two witnesses of re:11 and they die 3 1/2 days before the time given to Satan and the Beast is up.

Re:6:12:
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,
and,
lo,
there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became as blood;
Re:6:13:
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs,
when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re:6:14:
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Re:6:15:
And the kings of the earth,
and the great men,
and the rich men,
and the chief captains,
and the mighty men,
and every bondman,
and every free man,
hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Re:6:16:
And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re:6:17:
For the great day of his wrath is come;
and who shall be able to stand?

These verses are about the 7 vials that are all released within a few hours of the 7th trump sounding in Re:11. The 7th trumps stops the wrath or there would be no survivors on the whole planet. The 1/2 hours is the transition between the vials and the resurrection of all the people in the list given in Re:20:4.

This is a summation rather than being the whole explanation as that would include the trumps as well.
 

MHz

Member
It is my opinion that Jesus Christ has always had the authority to rule God's people.
1 Corinthians 10:4
At the time he proved himself faithful to the end, authority over ALL was given him. Matthew 28:18

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that he did not receive that kind of authority until 1914 in human years.
And they teach that he will give it to the faithful and discreet slave class when Jesus destroys their enemies.

Honest to God, I am talking to a brick wall, and even though I think it is FUNNY, I don't like it!
He was under God's rule and God makes up the timeline that Jesus must follow. The cup in the garden before the cross shows whose will was being followed. Jesus has the authority to judge men and 2/3 of all men go to the grave. The Beast from the pit and the 4 fallen angels from the Pit in the 6th trump are send to the fiery lake. Jesus can then rule over the people that are alive for the 1,000 years.
It is God himself who sits on the great white Throne after all fallen angels are sent to the lake at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign. The ones who appear at that time are shown mercy by god so they enter the new earth in the same condition that people were in on the evening of the first day of the 1,000 year reign. They are glorified by the water in Exe:47, after the GWT the water is found inside of New Jerusalem.

It would seem that people talking to God is not enough to save anyone but themselves. It isn't like that means they are never saved it only means they are not saved at the time you are talking to them.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The verses show how much authority Christ is given in terms of removing sinners from the planet, both human and fallen angels.

Perhaps if I give you my opinion on what the seals are that will at least show you where I am coming from.

Re:6:1:
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,
and I heard,
as it were the noise of thunder,
one of the four beasts saying,
Come and see.
Re:6:2:
And I saw, and behold a white horse:
and he that sat on him had a bow;
and a crown was given unto him:
and he went forth conquering,
and to conquer.

The seals are a prophecy that covers the events leading up to the return. The rider is God and the Holy Spirit is the white horse. The ride is symbolic of the day that nobody knows but is related to the start of the prophecies that must unfold before he return can happen. The method God uses is Christ as this next verse shows.

Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;

The first event in the return is the sealing of the 144,000 and the two witnesses (and the members of the church that have repented their sins). The coals from heaven in Re:8 before the trumps begin to sound are the same as when Saul was struck by a light from above. The ones in Revelations don't get any powers but they do get protection from any physical harm so they end up being witnesses for the tribulation that must happen before the return.

Re:6:3:
And when he had opened the second seal,
I heard the second beast say,
Come and see.
Re:6:4:
And there went out another horse that was red:
and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
and that they should kill one another:
and there was given unto him a great sword.

The sword that was left to the rulers of the nations in Romans:13 was used to protect people from evil. The red sword is when that same sword is used to bring evil on the very people it was meant to protect. trumps 1-4 happen in a period of 4 days and at the end it will be a situation when martial law has been declared on a global scale.

Re:6:5:
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say,
Come and see.
And I beheld,
and lo a black horse;
and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Re:6:6:
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say,
A measure of wheat for a penny,
and three measures of barley for a penny;
and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

This is also part of the first 4 trumps and this means that the ones who control the red sword will also hoard all the food and they will distribute to the ones they like and withhold it from the ones they classify as 'disposable'.

Re:6:7:
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Re:6:8:
And I looked,
and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth,
to kill with sword,
and with hunger,
and with death,
and with the beasts of the earth.

Satan and the Beast from the Pit make their appearance when the 5th trump sounds, from there it is 42 months before the 7th trump sounds. Hell is the pain (but no death) associated with the 5th trump, death is the 6th trump when 1/3 of all the people on the planet will be killed by 4 fallen angels who manifest themselves into an army of 200M horsemen.
The 1/4 of the earth they are given is all the dry ground the planet has as no people live on the oceans.

Re:6:9:
And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
Re:6:10:
And they cried with a loud voice,
saying,
How long,
O Lord,
holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Re:6:11:
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.

The people mentioned are the ones in the Bible that died because of the work they were doing for God. The last two that will die as a result of that is the two witnesses of re:11 and they die 3 1/2 days before the time given to Satan and the Beast is up.

Re:6:12:
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,
and,
lo,
there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became as blood;
Re:6:13:
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs,
when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re:6:14:
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Re:6:15:
And the kings of the earth,
and the great men,
and the rich men,
and the chief captains,
and the mighty men,
and every bondman,
and every free man,
hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Re:6:16:
And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re:6:17:
For the great day of his wrath is come;
and who shall be able to stand?

These verses are about the 7 vials that are all released within a few hours of the 7th trump sounding in Re:11. The 7th trumps stops the wrath or there would be no survivors on the whole planet. The 1/2 hours is the transition between the vials and the resurrection of all the people in the list given in Re:20:4.

This is a summation rather than being the whole explanation as that would include the trumps as well.
OK. I don't believe Revelation 6:2 shows Jesus Christ. I trust that it is the one coming in his stead or more germane, the anti-christ. I think it is obvious. That it isn't to most people just blows me away!
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The anti-christ has no power to destroy God's people, thus, NO ARROWS!

I love you guys. I really do.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
How can you call the vision of the first rider at Revelation 6 glorious?
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power;


The war in heaven, fully established Gods kingdom rule over heaven 100%--satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven forever because of that ride. Sounds glorious to me for heaven and the start of Gods kingdom rule.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
@kjw47 The Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation Bible says "has been".
If what you say is true that Jesus does not receive all authority until 1914
the NWT is wrong.
16 However, the 11 disciples went to Galʹi·lee+ to the mountain where Jesus had arranged for them to meet.+ 17 When they saw him, they did obeisance,* but some doubted.18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.+ 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”*+
Matthew 28 | Online Bible | New World Translation


It has been given to him--in Genesis. not where you show--that is where Gods will was established 100% concerning Jesus.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
You haven't made a point, so no, I think it doesn't help. How does it help?

HE says Jesus received a crown i.e. "authority" in 1914. The Bible says he received it before that.
"He must reign" also means he has the authority imo.
How is he reigning without God's permission i.e. authority, in your opinion?

Maybe, you should help HIM @kjw47.

@MHz Maybe you can help by explaining to me the difference between
1. reigning
2. having authority to reign
and
3. having a crown on his head

?

They all seem to be the same to me. How are they different to you?


Are you confused? Rev 6 is where he gets the crown. Not before, not after.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The war in heaven, fully established Gods kingdom rule over heaven 100%--satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven forever because of that ride. Sounds glorious to me for heaven and the start of Gods kingdom rule.
The vision of the rider in Revelation 6:2 isn't about a war in heaven. He is riding on Earth, just like the other three.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It has been given to him--in Genesis. not where you show--that is where Gods will was established 100% concerning Jesus.
It is what I AM saying! Who is confused? LOL
I wonder if the JWs who are faithful to the governing body will ever know that those men are making them stupider?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because Gods will is a done deal and Jesus knew it. Gods will cannot be stopped and Jesus knew it.
YOU say, "Jesus received a crown in 1914". I asked you what it means to receive a crown.

Let's go at this a little differently. WHEN did Jehovah give Jesus "all authority"? In 1914? Six thousand years ago? Or right after he proved 100% faithful to his Father?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By the way, it seems to me @kjw47 for Jesus to give the faithful and discreet slave dominion over all God's belongings, like the governing body (the F&DS - self-proclaimed) say he will, he is giving away some of his own "all authority". This is not an opinion. It is math.

Tell us how it makes sense that Jesus is given a crown "authority" and then he passes it on to your men, who, by the way, shouldn't even be on the Earth to be 144,000 members as the 144,000 are in HEAVEN.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nobody has given me a like yet for this jewel.

HOW can anyone be of the 144,000 BEFORE he or she "endures to the end"? Matthew 24:13

I suppose I am keeping an account. :D I don't have it written down who owes me, so do not worry your little, little heads off. OK?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
By the way, it seems to me @kjw47 for Jesus to give the faithful and discreet slave dominion over all God's belongings, like the governing body (the F&DS - self-proclaimed) say he will, he is giving away some of his own "all authority". This is not an opinion. It is math.

Tell us how it makes sense that Jesus is given a crown "authority" and then he passes it on to your men, who, by the way, shouldn't even be on the Earth to be 144,000 members as the 144,000 are in HEAVEN.

Good question Savagwind, but it may be a bit difficult to get an informed response unless someone can find the question "already asked"...preferably at the bottom of page 4 of their latest WT publication.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
The vision of the rider in Revelation 6:2 isn't about a war in heaven. He is riding on Earth, just like the other three.


The white horse= righteous war--only the war in heaven and Har-mageddon have the white horse leading it. No righteous war has been fought on earth. It doesn't say earth anywhere.
 
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